CronicReefer Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Could you be any more of a drama queen about all of this? We are here explaining how Oxydators are designed, the principle by which it works, and why things you see happening are happening, not that you are not seeing results! The information is right in front of you and yet you still refuse to see anything but your 'it's worked for 30 years, so it must work by magic' point of view. What we have explained is not theory. Yet you all seem to still believe it is a peroxide doser when it clearly is described in the patent process as well on multiple websites as not being that. This is a two stage process that is occurring. I tried to explain the process of the diving bell and why it is so crucial yet the conclusion still drawn is peroxide doser. Link to comment
metrokat Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Yet you all seem to still believe it is a peroxide doser when it clearly is described in the patent process as well on multiple websites as not being that. This is a two stage process that is occurring. I tried to explain the process of the diving bell and why it is so crucial yet the conclusion still drawn is peroxide doser. If it didn't dose the peroxide the 2 stages would not happen though. Link to comment
brandon429 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Until I see the food dye trick I think it leaks a lil Link to comment
jedimasterben Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Yet you all seem to still believe it is a peroxide doser when it clearly is described in the patent process as well on multiple websites as not being that. This is a two stage process that is occurring. I tried to explain the process of the diving bell and why it is so crucial yet the conclusion still drawn is peroxide doser. Do you own an oxydator? If so, please disassemble it and really take a look at the parts and how they fit together. A seal is not made anywhere except the very bottom where the aquarium water meets the air bubble under the peroxide reservoir. Every other part touches the aquarium water. Yes - some peroxide will be catalyzed by the ceramic bottom, but nowhere near enough to simply be an 'oxygen dosing device'. You can test this yourself. Take a bottle of pure O2 and inject it into the aquarium through a ceramic diffuser and see if it gives the same effects. It will not, as the Oxydator requires the peroxide in the aquarium water to be able to react with and oxidize organics to give the 'clearing' effect. O2 is not the same as O3 (ozone, aka 'activated oxygen') and will not react with organics, and neither will the H2O that is also released as part of the reaction. Are you still forgetting this tidbit? I emailed the company that makes the oxydator and received the following reply: Can I use the oxydator in a reef take with Skunk Cleaner Shrimp? It is a biocube 29 and I will put the oxydator in one of the back chambers. but this is a question of the amount of H2O2 coming into the water. An Oxydator releases water and oxgen and some H2O2, thats cleans the water and oxidizing different matter (rising up Redoxpotential). That is an improtant factor of an Oxydator. As far we know, some Lower Animals in saltwater are sensitive to H2O2, that means if you use an Oxydator in saltwater, take a lower concentration and rises it up slowly, until you have the level of "normal" concentration as recommended in swéat water.n Link to comment
tibbsy07 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Yet you all seem to still believe it is a peroxide doser when it clearly is described in the patent process as well on multiple websites as not being that. This is a two stage process that is occurring. I tried to explain the process of the diving bell and why it is so crucial yet the conclusion still drawn is peroxide doser. Cronic, you and Ben are correct. It is patented as an oxydator, and it IS that. It does release oxygen from the breakdown of hydrogen peroxide into the air. But to say that it also isn't releasing some level of peroxide is false. The reaction takes time, though it's fast and only microseconds, but it's not 100% efficient, nor is the jar/ceramic dish sealed. This indicates that there is absolutely some hydrogen peroxide escaping into the water column before the catalyst in the ceramic dish can break it down. The oxydator, by design, releases hydrogen peroxide from the upside-down jar into the ceramic dish. In the ceramic dish with the catalyst, the peroxide has 2 fates. One is that it is immediately hydrolyzed by the catalyst and released as water and oxygen gas into the water column. The other is that the hydrogen peroxide enters the water column before it's broken down, and it goes off to do its thing elsewhere. That is the most plausible theory until we actually have 100% measurable, quantifiable data on what exactly happens. Until I see the food dye trick I think it leaks a lil Even there, the food dye may escape without us knowing if there is a true "leak" because the food dye isn't going to be broken down by the catalyst, so when the peroxide is pushed out of the jar by the oxygen inside the jar, the food dye will go with it and then will leak out into the surrounding water. Link to comment
atoll Posted March 17, 2015 Author Share Posted March 17, 2015 Could you be any more of a drama queen about all of this? We are here explaining how Oxydators are designed, the principle by which it works, and why things you see happening are happening, not that you are not seeing results! The information is right in front of you and yet you still refuse to see anything but your 'it's worked for 30 years, so it must work by magic' point of view. What we have explained is not theory. Oh dear and now the abuse starts. Tank you Jed for all that you are a shining light and shown your true colours as if I needed another reason to butt out. Link to comment
brandon429 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 even beyond the design, every character of the oxyd can be replicated with low level direct injection. This is just a counter point it's not meant to argue. xenia w tolerate and acclimate to it but not high doses we use for algae work, tiny doses for sure. mere outcome does not eliminate leakage. Same clarity, same minor variances in micro algae work etc Link to comment
tibbsy07 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 even beyond the design, every character of the oxyd can be replicated with low level direct injection. This is just a counter point it's not meant to argue. xenia w tolerate and acclimate to it but not high doses we use for algae work, tiny doses for sure. mere outcome does not eliminate leakage. Same clarity, same minor variances in micro algae work etc Oh sure, I wasn't meaning to argue with you. Simply point out that the leak of dye may happen anyways. I'm really interested in seeing these things in action longer term with various tests. I think the leak one is a good idea, especially to get started with. Link to comment
jedimasterben Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 even beyond the design, every character of the oxyd can be replicated with low level direct injection. This is just a counter point it's not meant to argue. xenia w tolerate and acclimate to it but not high doses we use for algae work, tiny doses for sure. mere outcome does not eliminate leakage. Same clarity, same minor variances in micro algae work etc This is something that the new 'Nano Doser' would actually excel at since it can dose individual drops at a time and store like 30 or 60mL of fluid, so the dosing can be done for quite some time. Link to comment
brandon429 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I agree as well, fun to point out whatever details we can see good or bad. Ideally I bet we all agree not having to use peroxide in any form is ideal, but however we do thats ok too. after having seen the detailed posts on the design, and cronics counterpoint about non leaking it was just fun to make that container meet a challenge for no other reason than geeks. i was thinking, if there's no gasketing but plastic to plastic contacts with holes, any liquid would be tricky to keep inside imo. when I re read the details of what oxydator actually does and contrast it to fifteen peroxide threads the action is exactly like low level dosing. even the bee shrimp will tolerate micro doses, i still wipe the inside of my tank walls with 3% in the bee shrimp tanks and it doesnt kill them when I refill, imo thats similar to controlled output micro dosing which as a worst case scenario the OD is. whether or not it leaks peroxide doesnt matter to me, just fun to nit pick those details if the catalyst breaks down the dye=no more green, yall test it!! Link to comment
CronicReefer Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Cronic, you and Ben are correct. It is patented as an oxydator, and it IS that. It does release oxygen from the breakdown of hydrogen peroxide into the air. But to say that it also isn't releasing some level of peroxide is false. The reaction takes time, though it's fast and only microseconds, but it's not 100% efficient, nor is the jar/ceramic dish sealed. This indicates that there is absolutely some hydrogen peroxide escaping into the water column before the catalyst in the ceramic dish can break it down. The oxydator, by design, releases hydrogen peroxide from the upside-down jar into the ceramic dish. In the ceramic dish with the catalyst, the peroxide has 2 fates. One is that it is immediately hydrolyzed by the catalyst and released as water and oxygen gas into the water column. The other is that the hydrogen peroxide enters the water column before it's broken down, and it goes off to do its thing elsewhere. That is the most plausible theory until we actually have 100% measurable, quantifiable data on what exactly happens. Even there, the food dye may escape without us knowing if there is a true "leak" because the food dye isn't going to be broken down by the catalyst, so when the peroxide is pushed out of the jar by the oxygen inside the jar, the food dye will go with it and then will leak out into the surrounding water. I agree that some peroxide may be released as stated by the manufacturer but to call it a peroxide doser is bad terminology for anyone interested in using one of these. The word "some" does not tell us how much either. Some could be 1ppm, 10ppm, 100ppm peroxide, And of course it can not be sealed, nothing would come out. As a side note the best explanation for everyones initial algae growth is because the Oxydator does produce CO2 as a byproduct of breaking down many various carbon compounds in the water. Increased CO2 = easier/faster photosynthesis. However after using this for two weeks now the algae on my rocks is significantly lower. I can't say the same for the glass but this does not bother me as it provides food for for my fish when I scrape the glass and for my snails as well. Link to comment
metrokat Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Sigh. We are all passionate people in this hobby, I think the exchanges between Chronic and Jedi or Tibbsy and Chronic are far more heated than anything with you on this thread. With all due respect, we were talking about the Oxydator. A device that we are all using. I'm embarrassed that discussing how this thing works or doesn't is causing stress. "I have lost the will to live". That was just over the top. I agree with your decision not to read this thread anymore if discussing an inanimate object is causing stress. Oh dear and now the abuse starts. Tank you Jed for all that you are a shining light and shown your true colours as if I needed another reason to butt out. Link to comment
jedimasterben Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I agree that some peroxide may be released as stated by the manufacturer but to call it a peroxide doser is bad terminology for anyone interested in using one of these. The word "some" does not tell us how much either. Some could be 1ppm, 10ppm, 100ppm peroxide, And of course it can not be sealed, nothing would come out. As a side note the best explanation for everyones initial algae growth is because the Oxydator does produce CO2 as a byproduct of breaking down many various carbon compounds in the water. Increased CO2 = easier/faster photosynthesis. Well, I mean why not call something what it is? This thing dispenses peroxide in a controlled, clever way so that it gives enough peroxide to do the job it needs to do (which it does) without giving so much that it causes issues. Very interesting theory on the CO2 byproduct. If only there were a hobby-level way of testing that, I'd be all over it! Link to comment
CronicReefer Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Well, I mean why not call something what it is? This thing dispenses peroxide in a controlled, clever way so that it gives enough peroxide to do the job it needs to do (which it does) without giving so much that it causes issues. Very interesting theory on the CO2 byproduct. If only there were a hobby-level way of testing that, I'd be all over it! It's just so much more than a peroxide doser hence why I think we should continue calling it an Oxydator, maybe I'm a little picky but if I saw someone call this a peroxide doser I would not be interested in it as much if I knew nothing else about it. If i wanted to dose peroxide I would just do that and this device clearly produces pure O2 and water and "some" peroxide. The theory about the CO2 is stated in the instruction booklet. It says CO2 is a byproduct of the O2 decomposing organic compounds (organic = contains carbon). Link to comment
brandon429 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 nice call on a source for co2 gen Link to comment
CronicReefer Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 nice call on a source for co2 gen I like your signature btw. Link to comment
jedimasterben Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 It's just so much more than a peroxide doser hence why I think we should continue calling it an Oxydator, maybe I'm a little picky but if I saw someone call this a peroxide doser I would not be interested in it as much if I knew nothing else about it. If i wanted to dose peroxide I would just do that and this device clearly produces pure O2 and water and "some" peroxide. The theory about the CO2 is stated in the instruction booklet. It says CO2 is a byproduct of the O2 decomposing organic compounds (organic = contains carbon). I'm not saying the name of it needs to be changed or anything, but the descriptions where it is for sale should describe how it works. Dosing peroxide in the tiny amounts that the Oxydator does would need some expensive equipment (the NanoDoser is $136, other accurate dosing pumps are also $$$), so even the 'A' model at $80 is a good deal for what it is doing. I've honestly wished I could dose peroxide for a while now, I miss the water clarity I had then (even with a large skimmer and strong UV sterilizer I do not have that clarity), and this seems to be one of the less expensive ways to do it. It is also relatively failproof in its design, which is something that an electronic dosing pump or manual dosing won't attain. Link to comment
tibbsy07 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Sigh. We are all passionate people in this hobby, I think the exchanges between Chronic and Jedi or Tibbsy and Chronic are far more heated than anything with you on this thread. With all due respect, we were talking about the Oxydator. A device that we are all using. I'm embarrassed that discussing how this thing works or doesn't is causing stress. "I have lost the will to live". That was just over the top. I agree with your decision not to read this thread anymore if discussing an inanimate object is causing stress. I would argue that Cronic and I aren't even having a heated discussion. I'm just trying to point out that Ben and Cronic are saying very similar things, the biggest difference comes down to semantics and word choice (peroxide doser vs oxydator). Call it whatever you want, I don't care. I'm more interested in whether it ends up working for me or not. Link to comment
CronicReefer Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I'm not saying the name of it needs to be changed or anything, but the descriptions where it is for sale should describe how it works. Dosing peroxide in the tiny amounts that the Oxydator does would need some expensive equipment (the NanoDoser is $136, other accurate dosing pumps are also $$$), so even the 'A' model at $80 is a good deal for what it is doing. I've honestly wished I could dose peroxide for a while now, I miss the water clarity I had then (even with a large skimmer and strong UV sterilizer I do not have that clarity), and this seems to be one of the less expensive ways to do it. It is also relatively failproof in its design, which is something that an electronic dosing pump or manual dosing won't attain. Just a little side note about water clarity. I've always used this product called Algone. I rarely run carbon or organic adsorption resins, only once a month for two days just in case there are any toxins or heavy metals in the water Algone can not remove. I don't see anyone else in the saltwater hobby ever really talk about Algone but my water clarity has always been amazing and I believe it is because of this product. I can say I saw a slight improvement in my water clarity with the Oxydator but I would say it is because there is less "snow" particles floating around. Link to comment
Rehype Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 It's just so much more than a peroxide doser hence why I think we should continue calling it an Oxydator, maybe I'm a little picky but if I saw someone call this a peroxide doser I would not be interested in it as much if I knew nothing else about it. If i wanted to dose peroxide I would just do that and this device clearly produces pure O2 and water and "some" peroxide. The theory about the CO2 is stated in the instruction booklet. It says CO2 is a byproduct of the O2 decomposing organic compounds (organic = contains carbon). I agree oxydator sounds way cooler and honestly the name is what peaked my initial interest. I may have over simplified its function but its similar to how vinegar or vodka dosing are both terms for carbon dosing even though the actual process is alot more complex. So how about this guys now that we pretty much sorted out how this device works lets start adding some input on our individual experiences using this product but this time with some additional data such as tank size, water parameters, livestock(temp,alk,ph,orp,nitrates,phosphates,oxygen level, etc) Oxydator model, percentage of H202,how long its been in use, maybe even some before and after pics. Link to comment
tibbsy07 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I agree oxydator sounds way cooler and honestly the name is what peaked my initial interest. I may have over simplified its function but its similar to how vinegar or vodka dosing are both terms for carbon dosing even though the actual process is alot more complex. So how about this guys now that we pretty much sorted out how this device works lets start adding some input on our individual experiences using this product but this time with some additional data such as tank size, water parameters, livestock(temp,alk,ph,orp,nitrates,phosphates,oxygen level, etc) Oxydator model, percentage of H202,how long its been in use, maybe even some before and after pics. GREAT idea, Rehype. I'll periodically post here, but my sig has the link to the main thread on my tank/oxydator parameters/experiences thus far Link to comment
jedimasterben Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Just a little side note about water clarity. I've always used this product called Algone. I rarely run carbon or organic adsorption resins, only once a month for two days just in case there are any toxins or heavy metals in the water Algone can not remove. I don't see anyone else in the saltwater hobby ever really talk about Algone but my water clarity has always been amazing and I believe it is because of this product. I can say I saw a slight improvement in my water clarity with the Oxydator but I would say it is because there is less "snow" particles floating around. Looks like Algone appears to be some sort of carbon source and possibly something, so could get the same or similar results from a little bit of vinegar or vodka Link to comment
Rehype Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Looks like Algone appears to be some sort of carbon source and possibly something, so could get the same or similar results from a little bit of vinegar or vodka Agreed ive used this product in the past and prefer vodka dosing. Have you ever smelled an algone packet after its been sitting in your sump a few days? Link to comment
CronicReefer Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Agreed ive used this product in the past and prefer vodka dosing. Have you ever smelled an algone packet after its been sitting in your sump a few days? Haha yes they do smell quite strong but that is totally normal. Vodka dosing is comparable but I like the fact that it contains some resins as well to adsorb toxins. The odor is caused by the bacteria+what is adsorbed by the polymer resins in the packet. I've never noticed a smell being expelled into my tank though, my water has a nice aroma too it imo but I've always enjoyed the smell of the ocean since I was a kid. Link to comment
metrokat Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Can't be worse than microbe-lift special blend. Link to comment
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