Oxydator and Hydrogen peroxide.

[tibbsy07]

 

I think it has to do with what can be shipped via the carriers like UPS, Post Office etc ... not sure but I believe that is the reason for the 4.9% not much different from 5% really

 

Albert

Sure, but they even state in their patents that 5% is impractical and anything less is ineffective. And there may not be a big percentage difference in peroxide concentration (assuming they do their dilutions properly), but that can actually yield dramatically different performances. Chemistry is pretty strict in its requirements. Often in lab, even with non-chemistry related things, we see small changes in cellular concentration of a molecule and it results in 2-100 fold changes in cellular activity. The simple answer is just for me to go find higher concentration peroxide

[Marc.The.Shark]

No I'll effects for me as of this morning, 12+ hours in with the PerOxydator, got up to pH of 8.14 which is about normal & no pissed off coral and I have some pretty finicky ones, sympodium, pipe organ, many Zoas colonies and usually something is closed every day. Everything open this morning an hour after lights on. I was going to do a water change today cause my Alk is getting low, but think I'll hold off for a couple days & see what happens.

[albertthiel]

No I'll effects for me as of this morning, 12+ hours in with the PerOxydator, got up to pH of 8.14 which is about normal & no pissed off coral and I have some pretty finicky ones, sympodium, pipe organ, many Zoas colonies and usually something is closed every day. Everything open this morning an hour after lights on. I was going to do a water change today cause my Alk is getting low, but think I'll hold off for a couple days & see what happens.

 

Thanks for the update

Sure, but they even state in their patents that 5% is impractical and anything less is ineffective. And there may not be a big percentage difference in peroxide concentration (assuming they do their dilutions properly), but that can actually yield dramatically different performances. Chemistry is pretty strict in its requirements. Often in lab, even with non-chemistry related things, we see small changes in cellular concentration of a molecule and it results in 2-100 fold changes in cellular activity. The simple answer is just for me to go find higher concentration peroxide

 

 

I would think that the 0.1 % in concentration is not going to make any difference really tibbsy

 

Albert

[afyounie]

This is a great representation of what is going on - but not with the nano version. There is no "diving bell" in the nano. I'll take pictures later, but the mini/nano has no "lip" inside the ceramic dish, it's just a U shaped device. The lid itself for the jar is not solid all the way around - it looks like a star, with 3-4 pieces of plastic jutting away from the lid that contact the ceramic dish to hold it in place. There are gaps, though, it's not sealed. If you removed the little overhangs from the ceramic dish thing you made, you'd have what I have.

 

Looks like this:

 

Do you think the weight of the liquid in the container is what is holding the acrylic container down? The star shape is probably to allow the bubbles to escape while keeping the container equally spaced away from the walls.

[albertthiel]

 

Do you think the weight of the liquid in the container is what is holding the acrylic container down? The star shape is probably to allow the bubbles to escape while keeping the container equally spaced away from the walls.

 

The star shape locks it into the bottom container ... not the weight

[afyounie]

 

Yes and that other device from Japan is just an air bubbler to force oxygen in the water and prevent splash on the lights ... it is not the same as what we are talking about

 

 

 

 

Albert

 

I'm not sure I understand why it is not the same. The whole point of the Oxydator is to add oxygen to the water. The Japanese bubbler does this, but not in the same elegant way the Oxydator does it. It's also run from outside of the tank. The whole purpose of all of this is to increase the oxygen content of the water. How you do it is up to how much you are willing to spend. I think the Oxydator does it well because you don't deal with pressurized O2. This reduces cost, complexity, and risk. If the pressure becomes too high in the container, it forces more water out the small hole. Sort of self regulating. In my case, I have too little room in my sump for an Oxydator. Therefore I'd go with something like the Japanese bubble ma-jig and a bottle containing H2O2 outside the tank.

 

On a side note, I wish I had an Oxydator when I was doing planted aquariums. I once let the CO2 tank get to 500psi and it dumped the CO2 into the tank, killing all my crystal red shrimp. If I had extra O2 in the tank, some of them might've survived.

[tibbsy07]

 

Do you think the weight of the liquid in the container is what is holding the acrylic container down? The star shape is probably to allow the bubbles to escape while keeping the container equally spaced away from the walls.

No, far from it. The star shaped lid keeps the reservoir locked into place with the ceramic dish, but it's simply because of a tight fit, not a lip on the dish. There is no seal in my nano oxydator. There can't be. There is a gap between the reservoir and the ceramic dish and there are a number of gaps around the base of the star-lid-thing that keep the reservoir connected to the dish, and there is a gap between the bottom of the dish and the top of the bottle lid. That's how the oxygen bubbles get out, but it's also how water could get in or peroxide could get out.

 

Let me be clear of my perspective - I don't think you are in any way incorrect in your thinking/explanation of the diving bell. I just usually end up with more questions when given an answer - it's just a part of me, I guess. In this case it was simply me wondering how the diving bell works with MY particular model in which there is no real seal. I'm not trying to challenge you at all. Simply asking questions

 

I also wonder these things.

 

1.) If peroxide doesn't get into the water column, why is the ceramic dish with the catalyst so tall? Why does it need to go as far up on the jar/reservoir as it does? Wouldn't the peroxide react just in the bottom?

 

2.) How does the peroxide leave the jar into the ceramic dish if there is a lot of pressure building from the oxygen in the diving bell? I know this was brought up and that it takes a while, but it actually wouldn't take that long. The vacuum in the bottle and the oxygen bubble pushing UP into the 2 holes in the jar lid would likely inhibit the peroxide from leaving the jar at all, except there it oxygen forming in the bottle to push it out. There are basically 2 forces acting against the peroxide leaving the jar into the ceramic dish. Clearly is DOES happen, I'm just wondering how? The oxygen in the diving bell doesn't go back into one of the 2 holes, with peroxide coming out of the other?

 

3.) How do we know that water isn't flowing into the ceramic dish? I have a pretty high flow in my tank and there is no real seal on the dish. Water and gas can basically get into anything that isn't sealed tight. The likelihood that there is water entering and leaving the dish is pretty high, though it may not be much water. Still, there has to be water entering in some way.

[albertthiel]

 

I'm not sure I understand why it is not the same. The whole point of the Oxydator is to add oxygen to the water. The Japanese bubbler does this, but not in the same elegant way the Oxydator does it. It's also run from outside of the tank. The whole purpose of all of this is to increase the oxygen content of the water. How you do it is up to how much you are willing to spend. I think the Oxydator does it well because you don't deal with pressurized O2. This reduces cost, complexity, and risk. If the pressure becomes too high in the container, it forces more water out the small hole. Sort of self regulating. In my case, I have too little room in my sump for an Oxydator. Therefore I'd go with something like the Japanese bubble ma-jig and a bottle containing H2O2 outside the tank.

 

On a side note, I wish I had an Oxydator when I was doing planted aquariums. I once let the CO2 tank get to 500psi and it dumped the CO2 into the tank, killing all my crystal red shrimp. If I had extra O2 in the tank, some of them might've survived.

 

Not sure I understand your reasoning here ... how is the peroxide getting to the bubbler if the bottle is on the outside .. to me it looks like a glorified air stone bubbler and not like an Oxydator using H2O2 unless I am missing something

[CronicReefer]

No, far from it. The star shaped lid keeps the reservoir locked into place with the ceramic dish, but it's simply because of a tight fit, not a lip on the dish. There is no seal in my nano oxydator. There can't be. There is a gap between the reservoir and the ceramic dish and there are a number of gaps around the base of the star-lid-thing that keep the reservoir connected to the dish, and there is a gap between the bottom of the dish and the top of the bottle lid. That's how the oxygen bubbles get out, but it's also how water could get in or peroxide could get out.

 

Let me be clear of my perspective - I don't think you are in any way incorrect in your thinking/explanation of the diving bell. I just usually end up with more questions when given an answer - it's just a part of me, I guess. In this case it was simply me wondering how the diving bell works with MY particular model in which there is no real seal. I'm not trying to challenge you at all. Simply asking questions

 

I also wonder these things.

 

1.) If peroxide doesn't get into the water column, why is the ceramic dish with the catalyst so tall? Why does it need to go as far up on the jar/reservoir as it does? Wouldn't the peroxide react just in the bottom?

 

2.) How does the peroxide leave the jar into the ceramic dish if there is a lot of pressure building from the oxygen in the diving bell? I know this was brought up and that it takes a while, but it actually wouldn't take that long. The vacuum in the bottle and the oxygen bubble pushing UP into the 2 holes in the jar lid would likely inhibit the peroxide from leaving the jar at all, except there it oxygen forming in the bottle to push it out. There are basically 2 forces acting against the peroxide leaving the jar into the ceramic dish. Clearly is DOES happen, I'm just wondering how? The oxygen in the diving bell doesn't go back into one of the 2 holes, with peroxide coming out of the other?

 

3.) How do we know that water isn't flowing into the ceramic dish? I have a pretty high flow in my tank and there is no real seal on the dish. Water and gas can basically get into anything that isn't sealed tight. The likelihood that there is water entering and leaving the dish is pretty high, though it may not be much water. Still, there has to be water entering in some way.

The diving bell should always be at a positive pressure compared to the outside pressure (in your tank or in air). The ceramic base's lip is necessary because it helps create the diving bell effect. By the diving bell always being at this positive pressure it allows the water/O2/H2O2 to escape at a rate controlled by the catalyst (more catalyst = faster use of H2O2). There is always a possibility of some water entering from the tank but it should be minuscule. The O2 being produced in the diving bell could flow up into the reservoir if the pressure dropped low enough in the reservoir but you would see bubbles coming up into the reservoir which I have never seen in mine. So clearly the reservoir is staying at a higher pressure than the diving bell and the diving bell should stay at a higher pressure than the tank is pushing back in since the reaction is non stopping till the reservoir is drained.

[afyounie]

 

Not sure I understand your reasoning here ... how is the peroxide getting to the bubbler if the bottle is on the outside .. to me it looks like a glorified air stone bubbler and not like an Oxydator using H2O2 unless I am missing something

 

The whole point of the Oxydator is to introduce O2 into the aquarium, not actually dose H2O2. The H2O2 just creates O2 bubbles that grow the diving bell bubble until its too big and overflows the diving bell. You can get this by adding O2 through a diffuser generated by H2O2 in an external bottle. In this way you don't have to worry about H2O2 in the aquarium if you got a leak or something. But, its probably harder this way to keep a high enough pressure to keep the diffuser going. The CO2 diffuser disks used in planted aquaria require about 30psi to produce a nice stream of small bubbles. Probably could go lower with O2 because it is smaller than CO2 and would have an easier time getting through the CO2 diffuser disk.

 

Edit: Tibbsy, I think Cronic answered your question better than I could. I've never had one of these Oxydators, so I'm going off of what I can see on the web. I will say, peroxide is getting into the water, but it doesn't go anywhere because the ceramic dish keeps the water around the diving bell bubble stagnant. As for how I know water isn't flowing into the ceramic dish, I don't in your tank. In planted aquaria where this was originally meant to be, the tanks are low flow. So there is no worry about flow around the diving bell. In your tank, if you have it in a high flow area, then you might be getting some leakage. The whole purpose of my images was to explain how its supposed to work. But using this thing in high flow reef tanks isn't what it was designed to do. If you have a sump, I'd stick it in a slow flow region of the sump.

 

Edit: Edit: This is why I came up with my idea of using an external canister or bottle filled with H2O2 and a diffuser disk in the aquarium. This would keep the H2O2 out of the tank, so no possible leaks, and you get straight O2. The only issue is maintaining enough pressure in the bottle so the diffuser disk actually works. And not just any diffuser disk would work. I'm talking super fine porous ceramic diffusers, the very ones used for CO2 diffusion in planted tanks.

[tibbsy07]

The diving bell should always be at a positive pressure compared to the outside pressure (in your tank or in air). The ceramic base's lip is necessary because it helps create the diving bell effect. By the diving bell always being at this positive pressure it allows the water/O2/H2O2 to escape at a rate controlled by the catalyst (more catalyst = faster use of H2O2). There is always a possibility of some water entering from the tank but it should be minuscule. The O2 being produced in the diving bell could flow up into the reservoir if the pressure dropped low enough in the reservoir but you would see bubbles coming up into the reservoir which I have never seen in mine. So clearly the reservoir is staying at a higher pressure than the diving bell and the diving bell should stay at a higher pressure than the tank is pushing back in since the reaction is non stopping till the reservoir is drained.

That all makes sense, but again, I highlighted in bold - my oxydator ceramic dish has no lip at all. There is nothing. It is a sheer faced dish.

 

The whole point of the Oxydator is to introduce O2 into the aquarium, not actually dose H2O2. The H2O2 just creates O2 bubbles that grow the diving bell bubble until its too big and overflows the diving bell. You can get this by adding O2 through a diffuser generated by H2O2 in an external bottle. In this way you don't have to worry about H2O2 in the aquarium if you got a leak or something. But, its probably harder this way to keep a high enough pressure to keep the diffuser going. The CO2 diffuser disks used in planted aquaria require about 30psi to produce a nice stream of small bubbles. Probably could go lower with O2 because it is smaller than CO2 and would have an easier time getting through the CO2 diffuser disk.

Definitely, and I know this answer was directed to Albert. The only thing I question (and this is not questioning you, Cronic, etc) is whether or not the hydrolysis of the hydrogen peroxide is fast/efficient enough to ensure that no peroxide is actually leaving the ceramic dish into the water column. In your diving bell device that you and Cronic discuss, I would agree that it would be highly unlikely that any peroxide would enter the water column.

[CronicReefer]

That all makes sense, but again, I highlighted in bold - my oxydator ceramic dish has no lip at all. There is nothing. It is a sheer faced dish.

I understand what your saying. Yours must work on some different principle that I would need to find a cross section of the Oxydator to better understand it. It also may be pushing out such a small amount that the lip is not such a crucial factor in controlling the flow rate.

[tibbsy07]

I understand what your saying. Yours must work on some different principle that I would need to find a cross section of the Oxydator to better understand it. It also may be pushing out such a small amount that the lip is not such a crucial factor in controlling the flow rate.

Yeah, I think it might have to do with the holes in the lid. They are like pinholes.

[afyounie]

Sorry tibbsy, I was editing my post some more while you were typing. I mentioned that I really don't know if H2O2 is getting into your tank with high flow around the Oxydator. I really think its meant to be used in low flow environments. Allows the bubbles to slowly float to the surface rather than be pulled up. Increases contact time with water and allows more to dissolve.

[tibbsy07]

Sorry tibbsy, I was editing my post some more while you were typing. I mentioned that I really don't know if H2O2 is getting into your tank with high flow around the Oxydator. I really think its meant to be used in low flow environments. Allows the bubbles to slowly float to the surface rather than be pulled up. Increases contact time with water and allows more to dissolve.

No worries. It's a good point you make about low flow. I doubt the designers thought we'd have things like MP10s, etc when developing these

[pal]

even with mp10s or whatever the inside the ceramic is pretty much a dead spot.

[tibbsy07]

even with mp10s or whatever the inside the ceramic is pretty much a dead spot.

I'm not sure that's true. We'd have to measure to verify.

[pal]

measure it up .

[afyounie]

I agree. Its wrong to assume that its a dead spot. With a high enough flow around the ceramic cup, you will get movement near the diving bell. Is the flow in our tank high enough to cause this? That is what is debatable. I'd say the flow is high enough, depending where you put it.

[tibbsy07]

measure it up .

Don't have any way of doing it, myself. I'd do all these tests if I had the tools to do so.

[pal]

maybe I used the wrong word. very low flow area in the ceramic cup,

[afyounie]

Don't have any way of doing it, myself. I'd do all these tests if I had the tools to do so.

Same here. But its pretty difficult to do. Maybe we could simulate it by creating a similar dead spot with a tube for applying dye to the dead spot. Then run an MP10 around it or some power head. I'm sure you will see some dye escape.

[albertthiel]

 

The whole point of the Oxydator is to introduce O2 into the aquarium, not actually dose H2O2. The H2O2 just creates O2 bubbles that grow the diving bell bubble until its too big and overflows the diving bell. You can get this by adding O2 through a diffuser generated by H2O2 in an external bottle. In this way you don't have to worry about H2O2 in the aquarium if you got a leak or something. But, its probably harder this way to keep a high enough pressure to keep the diffuser going. The CO2 diffuser disks used in planted aquaria require about 30psi to produce a nice stream of small bubbles. Probably could go lower with O2 because it is smaller than CO2 and would have an easier time getting through the CO2 diffuser disk.

 

Edit: Tibbsy, I think Cronic answered your question better than I could. I've never had one of these Oxydators, so I'm going off of what I can see on the web. I will say, peroxide is getting into the water, but it doesn't go anywhere because the ceramic dish keeps the water around the diving bell bubble stagnant. As for how I know water isn't flowing into the ceramic dish, I don't in your tank. In planted aquaria where this was originally meant to be, the tanks are low flow. So there is no worry about flow around the diving bell. In your tank, if you have it in a high flow area, then you might be getting some leakage. The whole purpose of my images was to explain how its supposed to work. But using this thing in high flow reef tanks isn't what it was designed to do. If you have a sump, I'd stick it in a slow flow region of the sump.

 

Edit: Edit: This is why I came up with my idea of using an external canister or bottle filled with H2O2 and a diffuser disk in the aquarium. This would keep the H2O2 out of the tank, so no possible leaks, and you get straight O2. The only issue is maintaining enough pressure in the bottle so the diffuser disk actually works. And not just any diffuser disk would work. I'm talking super fine porous ceramic diffusers, the very ones used for CO2 diffusion in planted tanks.

 

 

It will be very difficult to produce enough pressure if the container with peroxide is on the outside of the tank and even when you manage to get some pressure build uip from time to time you will only get large bubbles and not the very small ones that actually are the ones that mix with the water before all rising to the top

 

Many have tried to make DIY ones and I have done so too and was never able to create the effect of the Oxydator due to a lack of sufficient presure and also even when pressure did build up after a long time all that would escape is a very large bubble and then nothing for quite some time

 

That bubble would rise immediately to the top and basically not do us any good in increasing oxygen levels and ORP

That all makes sense, but again, I highlighted in bold - my oxydator ceramic dish has no lip at all. There is nothing. It is a sheer faced dish.

Definitely, and I know this answer was directed to Albert. The only thing I question (and this is not questioning you, Cronic, etc) is whether or not the hydrolysis of the hydrogen peroxide is fast/efficient enough to ensure that no peroxide is actually leaving the ceramic dish into the water column. In your diving bell device that you and Cronic discuss, I would agree that it would be highly unlikely that any peroxide would enter the water column.

 

To be honest to be sure no H2O2 flows out even minimal amounts we would have to run some tests and IMO that is not easy to do as pointed out by others as well

[afyounie]

 

 

It will be very difficult to produce enough pressure if the container with peroxide is on the outside of the tank and even when you manage to get some pressure build uip from time to time you will only get large bubbles and not the very small ones that actually are the ones that mix with the water before all rising to the top

 

Many have tried to make DIY ones and I have done so too and was never able to create the effect of the Oxydator due to a lack of sufficient presure and also even when pressure did build up after a long time all that would escape is a very large bubble and then nothing for quite some time

 

That bubble would rise immediately to the top and basically not do us any good in increasing oxygen levels and ORP

 

Yes, I think this is exactly the problem with the method I'm thinking of. And I think its all due to the fact that O2 is a small molecule and a porous ceramic doesn't have the fine enough holes to achieve what is done with CO2 diffusers. I think that is why this is such an elegantly simple, yet complex device. It achieves something so complex with so little. Not a single moving part or anything. I just can't get over how clever it is. The Germans really are masters of engineering.

[tibbsy07]

I expect that because two PhDs (not sure what the degrees were in, but presumably science/engineering backgrounds of some kind) developed the system, that it works, whether it has to do with the peroxide, oxygen or a combination of both (my personal hypothesis is this, leaning more to oxygen but with a bit of peroxide tossed in). All I have is anecdotal evidence for everything, but we do a lot of things based on anecdotal evidence in this hobby. If it works for you, use it. If it doesn't, stop using it. I'll keep up my progress in my other thread.