Oxydator and Hydrogen peroxide.

[afyounie]

I keep seeing people say it works, but what does this mean? Can we quantify this? Clears water and reduces algae? But this is also achieved with a host of other products and methods. I saw something about it increases aerobic bacteria populations. But don't you want anaerobic populations since these are the ones that convert NO3 into N2? If people are seeing increased algae growth, then its probably because aerobic bacteria is generating more nitrate. So wouldn't you want to increase anaerobic and aerobic bacteria populations and wouldn't increased oxygen levels kill off the anaerobic bacteria? I'm thinking of experimenting with adding O2 to my tank which I'm experimenting with a zeovit style system. But I would think the increased O2 levels would kill off the anaerobic bacteria growing in the zeolites.

I'm becoming frustrated by all the anecdotal evidence in this hobby. Observations are great, but does anyone have an ORP sensor when running the Oxydator? How about taking water samples and testing for nitrate levels. Maybe place a 1 square cm "slide" in the tank and pull it out every couple days and counting the amount of algae cells on it. Then clean and place in exact same place and repeat. That would be a great way to gather data on algae growth. I wish I had a decent microscope so I could do this. That and tons of money to buy ORP probes and such.

[tibbsy07]

We can argue about patents all day long, and we can argue about who sees what in their tanks, but basically the oxydator is a hydrogen peroxide doser. Why not just add peroxide daily? It's an inexpensive ozone-adder. I'm not saying there is NO benefit. What I'm saying is that we don't know and people shouldn't be saying it's a cure for everything.

 

The peroxide in the jar reacts with whatever catalyst is IN the jar, hydrolyzing the H₂O₂ into H₂O and O₂. The oxygen rises and gets trapped, which pushes peroxide down and OUT of the opening in the lid of the jar (which is upside down in the ceramix dish). The peroxide that is displaced by the oxygen then hits the water and is hydrolyzed into H₂O and O₂ again, whether by the ceramic dish with the catalyst in it or by the water itself.

 

 

That is the 64 K question Kat ... no one seems to know exactly and we can only go by what our observations of its effect are on FW aquariums when it was first introduced and then on SW aquariums and reefs later on

 

Anything stated here are experiences by some who have used it for a LONG time and thus more reliable as they have been repeated over time, and by others who have only used it for a very short period of time and have decided that the unit does not "work"

 

IME that is an erroneous interepration and only true scientific evidence would be acceptable by some but such evidence is not available to my knowledge

 

All I can say is that over the years that I have used them they have given me great satisfaction including currently in my Jellyfish tank and that has been the experience of others as well including of course Les who has used the Unit for decades with positive results,

 

Note that this unit has been on the market for 30 odd years and since it still is and is still being widely used one has to give some credence to the fact that it does indeed perform as described by those who report the positive results

 

We could go on here with pros and cons and more pros and cons yet all of that would be anecdotal as well based on what some say so even those who are going to test the unit so to speak will be reporting the same type of anecdotal findings not scientific evidence

 

What my suggestion is : try it out and give it time to perform as it is intended to perform and that may be far longer than the time frame that some have used the units for currently

 

I know it works or I would not continue to use it and so does Les and so do many others who report excellent results on other forums and so do seahorse breeders who report excellent results with its use.

 

Albert

Believe me IT WORKS

 

You don't KNOW it works. You THINK it works so you keep using it. I don't KNOW that it doesn't work, I just THINK that it doesn't. I work in science, analyzing data and designing experiments day in day out every day of my life. The observations by you and everyone else, including myself, are just that. Observations. They are useless. Ben and I are right to ask for actual data and be a bit miffed that we don't get any.

 

Crystal healing has been used for decades too and people still use it, regardless of whether it works or not. That's a poor line of reasoning "Well, people have been using it for a long time so it must work." Drs used to use leeches to bleed patients of toxins/disease but that doesn't work

 

 

Quote "There is no actual data from either set of people to say that the oxydator is or isn't the culprit. It's all anecdotal."

So,many people report seeing positive results time and time again since the introduction of an Oxydator that I think there is more than enough evidence to support the claims.

Quote "You are confused because you believe the oxydator actually helps your tank"

No confusion here my friend I have been using Oxydator's for 30 years plus on many tanks with matching results it's my tanks that are confused if there is any confusion.

 

I am sorry after a short period using an Oxydator you are not getting the immediate results you wanted but maybe if you stay with it you will see what a larger number of people have witnessed with the introduction of Oxydator's in their tanks then again maybe not.

 

No, I stand by my first point. There is no actual data. People observing something without any level of controls, actual precise manipulations, repeated trials in the same conditions, repeated trials with varying conditions, with real measurably results are NOT data. They are observations. People get "healed" from crystals all day long, but the crystals do nothing for them. Just because someone sees something doesn't make it real or valid.

 

As for the confusion statement I meant confusion in our results - I don't think you are actually confused. I meant to put "" around it, as I simply meant that it seems odd to you because everything in your experience leads you to believe that the oxydators work. In my experience, so far, it doesn't. We can both be correct here, actually.

 

And for the oxydator itself - the patents all talk about 15-25% hydrogen peroxide being best. The latest one (2004, link above) says that anything below 5% is impractical. Yet the oxydator I got comes with 2 bottles on 4.9% hydrogen peroxide. Why even bother selling the peroxide with it? The patent itself (From Sochting) says that <5% is useless. And yet they sell 4.9% WITH the unit... I'm going to bump up to 15% (their optimal recommended dose) and see if that changes anything.

[pal]

_{I think it works , I think tests will prove ,}

[jedimasterben]

But I would think the increased O2 levels would kill off the anaerobic bacteria growing in the zeolites.

Not to derail the thread any, but anaerobic nitrogen reducing bacteria I don't think would live on the zeolith stones. The stones adsorb ammonia and potassium so that the nitrogen cycle can be completely bypassed as much as possible so the tank is always in a ULN state, so the bacterial films that attach to the stones to cleave the ammonia away from the stones would be nitrogen fixing bacteria.

[tibbsy07]

_{I think it works , I think tests will prove ,}

Sure, and it may very well work. I'm not saying it doesn't. I'm simply saying that it's hard to know if it is or not. I am glad for those who have seen positive results and I hope that I have them soon, too.

[pal]

Sure, and it may very well work. I'm not saying it doesn't. I'm simply saying that it's hard to know if it is or not. I am glad for those who have seen positive results and I hope that I have them soon, too.

fair enough, How many catalysts are you using ? I am using 6 percent and two catalysts.

[tibbsy07]

fair enough, How many catalysts are you using ? I am using 6 percent and two catalysts.

Only 1 catalyst with a 4.9% solution, as per the instructions. I am going to bump up to a higher percentage peroxide dose. I'm also going to move the oxydator across my tank because the released peroxide is killing my xenia.

[albertthiel]

Sure, and it may very well work. I'm not saying it doesn't. I'm simply saying that it's hard to know if it is or not. I am glad for those who have seen positive results and I hope that I have them soon, too.

 

Just give it some time tibbsy .... and keep us posted.

 

We could go on back and forth as we are doing but that only fills pages and pages with more and more posts and does not give us what some are looking for

 

So let's wait for some time till those who are testing it give us their anecdotal findings as well

 

Albert

[metrokat]

Not to derail the thread, I want to use it for vodka dosing. The small amount that escapes is perfect. What could be used as a catalyst though?

[CronicReefer]

I think everyone needs to read this article. I understand this says freshwater but it explains how the oxydator process works specifically how peroxide is NOT released into the tank.

 

http://www.marinedepot.com/freshwater_sochting_oxydator_information-ap.html

[tibbsy07]

Kat, there would be no catalyst to react the vodka as the vodka's role isn't a chemical reaction. You COULD use it, however, because alcohol is less dense than water, so it floats. What you could try is putting the jar right side up with vodka in it and see if the water slowly displaces the vodka as it's more dense. The water would flow into the hole and push the vodka out. Alternatively, drill a small hole in the bottom of the jar, too. This would allow water to flow in the bottom and then release the vodka out of the top.

[atoll]

Only 1 catalyst with a 4.9% solution, as per the instructions. I am going to bump up to a higher percentage peroxide dose. I'm also going to move the oxydator across my tank because the released peroxide is killing my xenia.

My Oxydator is close and just under my Xenia I have posted both a pic sand a vid. I am using 6% and 2 catalysts in my AR300 my Xenia is just fine no reaction (negatively) to my Oxydator. Maybe no peroxide is exiting my Oxydator to attack it.

[jedimasterben]

I think everyone needs to read this article. I understand this says freshwater but it explains how the oxydator process works specifically how peroxide is NOT released into the tank.

 

http://www.marinedepot.com/freshwater_sochting_oxydator_information-ap.html

My Oxydator is close and just under my Xenia I have posted both a pic sand a vid. I am using 6% and 2 catalysts in my AR300 my Xenia is just fine no reaction (negatively) to my Oxydator. Maybe no peroxide is exiting my Oxydator to attack it.

Read the quotes from the patents above, and take a look at the actual design of the thing. They have to release peroxide or nothing can happen, unless you believe that oxygen (a gas) is heavier than water or liquid peroxide and sinks to the bottom of the peroxide reservoir and out into the tank.

[CronicReefer]

Read the quotes from the patents above, and take a look at the actual design of the thing. They have to release peroxide or nothing can happen, unless you believe that oxygen (a gas) is heavier than water or liquid peroxide and sinks to the bottom of the peroxide reservoir and out into the tank.

You clearly didn't read..."The key is a specially developed ceramic which breaks peroxide down completely into water and oxygen."

[jedimasterben]

You clearly didn't read..."The key is a specially developed ceramic which breaks peroxide down completely into water and oxygen."

That Marine Depot article is not exactly something I would treat as fact. What is 'activated oxygen'? I'll bet you they would have no clue, either.

 

Look at the design of the oxydator and read the patents on their design and purpose. Unless this 'activated oxygen' is defying the laws of physics (it isn't) then it is not entering the aquarium water and instead peroxide is, just like Sochting designed it to.

[CronicReefer]

That Marine Depot article is not exactly something I would treat as fact. What is 'activated oxygen'? I'll bet you they would have no clue, either.

 

Look at the design of the oxydator and read the patents on their design and purpose. Unless this 'activated oxygen' is defying the laws of physics (it isn't) then it is not entering the aquarium water and instead peroxide is, just like Sochting designed it to.

From the Dr. Sochting Oxydator website itself... Where and how is oxygen produced?

Oxygen is only produced in a second step. Therefore it has to be explained that the container, which contains OXYDATOR-solution and a small catalyst, has to be put into a beaker, which is made out of a special ceramic (same as catalysts, but much more active). In this ceramic beaker OXYDATOR-solution will be split into pure oxygen and water, whereby oxygen is produced in very tiny bubbles, which almost dissolves completely in water and only very few larger bubbles can be seen. This is all one has to know to understand the principles of the OXYDATOR, but in practice there will be some more questions coming up.

 

I don't think you are understanding that the peroxide is broken down inside the diving bell by the ceramic before it ever makes contact with the aquarium water.

[atoll]

You clearly didn't read..."The key is a specially developed ceramic which breaks peroxide down completely into water and oxygen."

That was always my understanding from day one well around 10,950 days. My understanding is that the peroxide is broken down into water and oxygen by the catalyst in doing so puts the inside of the bell under pressure which forces the oxygen out of the small hole along with some water perhaps some peroxide escapes with it I don't know.. I have Xenia which we are told is very reactive to hydrogen peroxide in the tank and yet my Xenia is close to my Oxydator and there is no negative effect on it at all. The only time I have noticed any negative effects using an Oxydator was when I pushed my tank beyond the limits of my nems when I sued 17% peroxide with 2 catalysts in my model "A" . One if my nems turned itself inside out but quickly recovered when I removed the Oxydator. That is why I recommend no more than 9% peroxide and recommend 6% as a norm.

[afyounie]

Not to derail the thread any, but anaerobic nitrogen reducing bacteria I don't think would live on the zeolith stones. The stones adsorb ammonia and potassium so that the nitrogen cycle can be completely bypassed as much as possible so the tank is always in a ULN state, so the bacterial films that attach to the stones to cleave the ammonia away from the stones would be nitrogen fixing bacteria.

 

Its not that they live on the zeolite, from my understanding after reading some articles on zeolites, the anaerobic bacteria live within the stones because they are porous. I don't use the zeovit stones, so those may not be porous. Or they might be. I'm not sure. The article I read stated that the zeolites adsorb ammonia that is converted into nitrite then nitrate via the aerobic bacteria growing on the stones. Then the anaerobic bacteria growing within the stones convert the nitrate to N2. Is this true? No one really knows because no one runs scientific experiments on this and the Zeovit method is treated like closely guarded alchemical secrets.

 

I think I'm going to try making my own peroxide powered O2 generator using a CO2 diffusor disk to get the O2 into the water. I'll fill a glass jar with peroxide and place a catalyst in it. Not sure what I'll use as the catalyst. Only issue will be ensuring the O2 doesn't escape through the tubing. It would be nice if someone with an ORP sensor that is running the Oxydator can see if there is a change in the ORP reading of the water.

[tibbsy07]

From the Dr. Sochting Oxydator website itself... Where and how is oxygen produced?

Oxygen is only produced in a second step. Therefore it has to be explained that the container, which contains OXYDATOR-solution and a small catalyst, has to be put into a beaker, which is made out of a special ceramic (same as catalysts, but much more active). In this ceramic beaker OXYDATOR-solution will be split into pure oxygen and water, whereby oxygen is produced in very tiny bubbles, which almost dissolves completely in water and only very few larger bubbles can be seen. This is all one has to know to understand the principles of the OXYDATOR, but in practice there will be some more questions coming up.

 

I don't think you are understanding that the peroxide is broken down inside the diving bell by the ceramic before it ever makes contact with the aquarium water.

No Cronic, Jedi is correct. All the patents say so, and they are much more detailed than the MD blog. The small catalyst inside the jar hydrolyzes the peroxide in small amounts so that the oxygen produced forces the other peroxide out via displacement. Then the peroxide entering the water column reacts with the water or (in some cases) the catalyst IN the ceramic top. Ben is spot on - the majority of the decomposition of the peroxide into oxygen and water occurs outside the jar.

 

My Oxydator is close and just under my Xenia I have posted both a pic sand a vid. I am using 6% and 2 catalysts in my AR300 my Xenia is just fine no reaction (negatively) to my Oxydator. Maybe no peroxide is exiting my Oxydator to attack it.

Maybe yours isn't unhappy with peroxide? Maybe your catalysts are hydrolyzing the peroxide quickly enough. I'm glad your xenia are doing well, though. I wish mine were! They do not like this thing. That's ok. They'll adjust. Xenia always close up on me when I use peroxide, but they figure it out eventually.

That was always my understanding from day one well around 10,950 days. My understanding is that the peroxide is broken down into water and oxygen by the catalyst in doing so puts the inside of the bell under pressure which forces the oxygen out of the small hole along with some water perhaps some peroxide escapes with it I don't know.. I have Xenia which we are told is very reactive to hydrogen peroxide in the tank and yet my Xenia is close to my Oxydator and there is no negative effect on it at all. The only time I have noticed any negative effects using an Oxydator was when I pushed my tank beyond the limits of my nems when I sued 17% peroxide with 2 catalysts in my model "A" . One if my nems turned itself inside out but quickly recovered when I removed the Oxydator. That is why I recommend no more than 9% peroxide and recommend 6% as a norm.

THe oxygen is what actually creates the pressure, and it does so by rising to the top of the upside down jar. The gas pushes back downwards, forcing the liquid below (the peroxide) out into the water column/ceramic dish.

 

Please, everyone, please - just read the patents linked. The description is very simple. it's a 2 reaction process. 1 in the jar and 1 in the water column outside of the oxydator itself.

[pal]

Activated oxygen or “ozone” is a natural molecule that is formed when a third atom of oxygen is introduced into the common two-atom molecule that makes up the air we breathe. This molecule becomes “super-charged” and has the ability to oxidize, or destroy many other molecules found in nature. As powerful as it is, this molecule is self-limiting, in that shortly after it is formed it reverts back into normal oxygen.

[metrokat]

But Oxygen is lighter than peroxide so how is the oxygen forcing it's way through the liquid to get out?

 

That was always my understanding from day one well around 10,950 days. My understanding is that the peroxide is broken down into water and oxygen by the catalyst in doing so puts the inside of the bell under pressure which forces the oxygen out of the small hole along with some water perhaps some peroxide escapes with it I don't know..

[CronicReefer]

No Cronic, Jedi is correct. All the patents say so, and they are much more detailed than the MD blog. The small catalyst inside the jar hydrolyzes the peroxide in small amounts so that the oxygen produced forces the other peroxide out via displacement. Then the peroxide entering the water column reacts with the water or (in some cases) the catalyst IN the ceramic top. Ben is spot on - the majority of the decomposition of the peroxide into oxygen and water occurs outside the jar.

 

Maybe yours isn't unhappy with peroxide? Maybe your catalysts are hydrolyzing the peroxide quickly enough. I'm glad your xenia are doing well, though. I wish mine were! They do not like this thing. That's ok. They'll adjust. Xenia always close up on me when I use peroxide, but they figure it out eventually.

THe oxygen is what actually creates the pressure, and it does so by rising to the top of the upside down jar. The gas pushes back downwards, forcing the liquid below (the peroxide) out into the water column/ceramic dish.

 

Please, everyone, please - just read the patents linked. The description is very simple. it's a 2 reaction process. 1 in the jar and 1 in the water column outside of the oxydator itself.

 

It is NOT the catalyst that is decomposing the peroxide...it is the ceramic holder for the beaker. Let me explain in simple terms. That plastic cap you put on the bottom is shaped for that reason because it creates a pressurized diving bell when you place the ceramic on top of the beaker (the ceramic must be place on while the pin hole facing up so a pressure bubble can be formed when you turn it upright). The catalyst only breaks down a very tiny part of the peroxide creating enough pressure to force peroxide into the diving bell. Inside the diving bell the ceramic breaks the peroxide down into water and O2 thereby being released into the tank. Peroxide NEVER comes into contact with any aquarium water, only the water/peroxide mixture that is being contained inside the diving bell.

[metrokat]

 

It is NOT the catalyst that is decomposing the peroxide...it is the ceramic holder for the beaker. Let me explain in simple terms. That plastic cap you put on the bottom is shaped for that reason because it creates a pressurized diving bell when you place the ceramic on top of the beaker (the ceramic must be place on while the pin hole facing up so a pressure bubble can be formed when you turn it upright). The catalyst only breaks down a very tiny part of the peroxide creating enough pressure to force peroxide into the diving bell. Inside the diving bell the ceramic breaks the peroxide down into water and O2 thereby being released into the tank. Peroxide NEVER comes into contact with any aquarium water, only the water/peroxide mixture that is being contained inside the diving bell.

I thought that is what Jedi is saying also.

Others say peroxide breaks down and oxygen from inside the jar is being released - which defies gravity.

Jedi says peroxide is released (and this is supported by the patent information) which breaks down outside the jar.

You're saying it breaks down inside the ceramic holder. Which is outside the jar and inside the tank.

Jedi is right.

[tibbsy07]

 

It is NOT the catalyst that is decomposing the peroxide...it is the ceramic holder for the beaker. Let me explain in simple terms. That plastic cap you put on the bottom is shaped for that reason because it creates a pressurized diving bell. The catalyst only breaks down a very tiny part of the peroxide creating enough pressure to force peroxide into the diving bell. Inside the diving bell the ceramic breaks the peroxide down into water and O2 thereby being released into the tank. Peroxide NEVER comes into contact with any aquarium water, only the water/peroxide mixture that is being contained inside the diving bell.

That's literally what I said, Cronic. But the patents actually say that the presence of water helps catalyze the reaction. The ceramic dish has some catalyst in it. That's important, too. That's why I said that peroxide hydrolysis takes place outside of the jar. The jar only contains the peroxide and catalyst pellet.

 

The small catalyst inside the jar hydrolyzes the peroxide in small amounts so that the oxygen produced forces the other peroxide out via displacement. Then the peroxide entering the water column reacts with the water or (in some cases) the catalyst IN the ceramic top. Ben is spot on - the majority of the decomposition of the peroxide into oxygen and water occurs outside the jar.

 

 

But you are wrong if you think that water from the water column doesn't enter the ceramic dish in some capacity. There is no seal on my ceramic dish to stop water coming in or out. The remaining water that is created from the peroxide hydrolysis also has to go somewhere.

[CronicReefer]

You may have to zoom in to see it but where it says diving bell under Oxydator D (this is most similar to the one in our aquariums)...that is where the reaction takes place. It is outside the beaker but it is before it ever comes into contact with the aquarium water. If any peroxide is getting past all the activated catalyst inside the ceramic I would be absolutely stunned.