Oxydator and Hydrogen peroxide.

[atoll]

But Oxygen is lighter than peroxide so how is the oxygen forcing it's way through the liquid to get out?

I don't fully understand it but if you pressurise oxygen in a confined space then maybe it gets overload with oxygen and in doing so force that oxygen out..... Maybe. if you look at the bell there is a raised part running round the top allowing a bubble of oxygen to form of oxygen or peroxide if you choose and in turn this will be released as micro bubbles. Given its impossible to observe what is going on I can only guess at it. I have observed oxygen bubbles leave my oxydator both vertically but also horizontally, vertically you would expect but horizontally given oxygen is lighter than water. Maybe its a bit like surface tension but in the water as opposed to the surface of water I don't know I only know what I have observed time and time again, . .

[CronicReefer]

You may have to zoom in to see it but where it says diving bell under Oxydator D (this is most similar to the one in our aquariums)...that is where the reaction takes place. It is outside the beaker but it is before it ever comes into contact with the aquarium water. If any peroxide is getting past all the activated catalyst inside the ceramic I would be absolutely stunned.

For the new page...

[atoll]

You may have to zoom in to see it but where it says diving bell under Oxydator D (this is most similar to the one in our aquariums)...that is where the reaction takes place. It is outside the beaker but it is before it ever comes into contact with the aquarium water. If any peroxide is getting past all the activated catalyst inside the ceramic I would be absolutely stunned.

I have suggested similar myself and have suggested the ceramic beaker may well play a role in breaking any peroxide exiting the bell as well as the catalyst breaking down the peroxide in previous posts.

[jedimasterben]

From the Dr. Sochting Oxydator website itself... Where and how is oxygen produced?

Oxygen is only produced in a second step. Therefore it has to be explained that the container, which contains OXYDATOR-solution and a small catalyst, has to be put into a beaker, which is made out of a special ceramic (same as catalysts, but much more active). In this ceramic beaker OXYDATOR-solution will be split into pure oxygen and water, whereby oxygen is produced in very tiny bubbles, which almost dissolves completely in water and only very few larger bubbles can be seen. This is all one has to know to understand the principles of the OXYDATOR, but in practice there will be some more questions coming up.

 

I don't think you are understanding that the peroxide is broken down inside the diving bell by the ceramic before it ever makes contact with the aquarium water.

Let's take a look at the design, shall we?

 

These are 100% of the parts included.

 

 

Note the hole in the bottom of the peroxide reservoir through which peroxide is dispensed.

 

 

Better view of the 'business end' of the reservoir, with two catalysts included.

 

 

Peroxide is added to the reservoir

 

 

Place catalysts inside and add cap back to refill cover.

 

Place inverted into fired ceramic housing.

 

Place cap and install into aquarium.

 

Note that the cap does not seal it in. The cap very loosely rests on top of the plastic reservoir, its only purpose is to hold the reservoir down to keep it from floating or tipping since it contains some air.

 

 

 

As the silver catalyst, uh, catalyzes the peroxide, it does the following reaction: 2H₂O₂ -> 2H₂O + O₂

 

 

This very slightly pressurizes the peroxide reservoir and pushes some peroxide down out of the reservoir and into the aquarium water that is surrounding the peroxide reservoir within the ceramic shell of the oxydator.

[CronicReefer]

I have suggested similar myself and have suggested the ceramic beaker may well play a role in breaking any peroxide exiting the bell as well as the catalyst breaking down the peroxide in previous posts.

It does, in fact Dr. Sochting himself says that in it is this second step that the peroxide is actually broken down into the water and O2 being released into our tank. But it is very cleverly designed so that all peroxide is broken down before it enters the tank (unless you are using a higher dose than what is recommended). I just don't believe that the others are taking into consideration where the reaction is occurring or how the gas and water escapes.

[jedimasterben]

I don't fully understand it but if you pressurise oxygen in a confined space then maybe it gets overload with oxygen and in doing so force that oxygen out.....

No. No no no. Oxygen is lighter than water and peroxide and cannot be pushed down by it.

It does, in fact Dr. Sochting himself says that in it is this second step that the peroxide is actually broken down into the water and O2 being released into our tank. But it is very cleverly designed so that all peroxide is broken down before it enters the tank (unless you are using a higher dose than what is recommended).

Again, no.

[CronicReefer]

No. No no no. Oxygen is lighter than water and peroxide and cannot be pushed down by it.

Again, no.

You are missing the entire concept of the diving bell. I don't have the patience to explain pressure and buoyancy physics.

[atoll]

No. No no no. Oxygen is lighter than water and peroxide and cannot be pushed down by it.

Again, no.

Then why do some of my micro bubbles exit my Oxydator horizontally? I am not suggesting Oxygen is not lighter than water but just what I have observed.

I have to butt out now it's getting late in the Uk and i have lots to do. All very interesting and maybe the truth of it all will be known in the meantime I will continue to believe my eyes and my experience with many tanks using Oxydator's and as witnessed by many others. Thank you all.

[jedimasterben]

You are missing the entire concept of the diving bell. I don't have the patience to explain pressure and buoyancy physics.

It is not a 'diving bell'. The ceramic shell of the oxydator does NOT seal the acrylic reservoir. Water enters the oxydator. It is plain and simple as is outlined above.

Then why do some of my micro bubbles exit my Oxydator horizontally? I am not suggesting Oxygen is not lighter than water but just what I have observed.

I have to butt out now it's getting late in the Uk and i have lots to do. All very interesting and maybe the truth of it all will be known in the meantime I will continue to believe my eyes and my experience with many tanks using Oxydator's and as witnessed by many others. Thank you all.

Same reason why our corals don't just sit still in our tanks, flow.

[CronicReefer]

It is not a 'diving bell'. The ceramic shell of the oxydator does NOT seal the acrylic reservoir. Water enters the oxydator. It is plain and simple as is outlined above.

Same reason why our corals don't just sit still in our tanks, flow.

There is a diving bell being created by the shape of the beaker cap and flat ceramic bottom (it is clear to see in the illustrations). Inside the diving bell bubble as more peroxide is pushed into it, water/peroxide mixture is pushed out at the same time coming into contact with a highly activated catalyst in the ceramic breaking down all the remaining peroxide before it comes into contact with the aquarium water. This is how O2 and water escape from the diving bell into your aquarium. I don't know how else to explain this but I promise you if you test what comes out of the oxydator after you set it on your counter and allow the reaction to occur and liquid to escape the ceramic it will be 0% peroxide.

[Maximus831]

Wow, you guys are awesome! It sounds to me like the gist of the argument is does the Oxydator release peroxide or does it release o2 and water after it has contact with the catalyst. That is the $10k question!

[jedimasterben]

There is a diving bell being created by the shape of the beaker cap and flat ceramic bottom (it is clear to see in the illustrations). Inside the diving bell bubble as more peroxide is pushed into it, water/peroxide mixture is pushed out at the same time coming into contact with a highly activated catalyst in the ceramic breaking down all the remaining peroxide before it comes into contact with the aquarium water. This is how O2 and water escape from the diving bell into your aquarium. I don't know how else to explain this but I promise you if you test what comes out of the oxydator after you set it on your counter and allow the reaction to occur and liquid to escape the ceramic it will be 0% peroxide.

The problem is that the ceramic is porous and allows water to flow through and peroxide to flow out. there is no seal created anywhere.

 

In addition, there is no 'highly reactive catalyst' inside the ceramic housing, only inside the small bits of catalyst that are inside the reservoir. This would have enormous cost in the silver required for its manufacture.

Wow, you guys are awesome! It sounds to me like the gist of the argument is does the Oxydator release peroxide or does it release o2 and water after it has contact with the catalyst. That is the $10k question!

There is no question about it. The patent documents filed by Klaus Sochting specifically state that it releases peroxide into the water.

[Maximus831]

Thus if it does release peroxide, the Oxydator is nothing more than a Peroxide doser (nothing wrong with that, imo). The catalyst is just an ingenious way to slowly release the peroxide.

[CronicReefer]

The problem is that the ceramic is porous and allows water to flow through and peroxide to flow out. there is no seal created anywhere.

 

In addition, there is no 'highly reactive catalyst' inside the ceramic housing, only inside the small bits of catalyst that are inside the reservoir. This would have enormous cost in the silver required for its manufacture.

There is no question about it. The patent documents filed by Klaus Sochting specifically state that it releases peroxide into the water.

It says on Sochting website the ceramic is the same as the catalyst..."which is made out of a special ceramic (same as catalysts, but much more active)."

[jedimasterben]

It says on Sochting website the ceramic contains is the same as the catalyst..."which is made out of a special ceramic (same as catalysts, but much more active)."

I'm just saying, silver is pretty damned expensive.

 

Btw, the catalysts in my Sochting unit are black and the ceramic housing is brown. Should not both be black? Or if it contains 'much more active' catalysts shouldn't it be more silver then?

 

In addition, looking at the patents filed, the only 'diving bell' mentioned is that at the bottom of the acrylic peroxide reservoir so that no aquarium water can be drawn into the reservoir which would effectively drain it of peroxide and stop the reaction, as it would replace it with water. The reservoir itself is not the diving bell with the ceramic housing.

[CronicReefer]

I'm just saying, silver is pretty damned expensive.

 

Btw, the catalysts in my Sochting unit are black and the ceramic housing is brown. Should not both be black? Or if it contains 'much more active' catalysts shouldn't it be more silver then?

The amounts of silver are extremely tiny I'm sure, I know silver is highly reactive with peroxide so not very much would be needed to create any kind of reaction. It is probably lighter because it contains more silver and the catalyst is blacker because it contains less.

[jedimasterben]

Also, check the edits to my post for explanation on the 'diving bell'.

[CronicReefer]

Also, check the edits to my post for explanation on the 'diving bell'.

The diving bell that is created is actually quite sophisticated but I assure you no peroxide should be escaping if you follow the initial setup correct. It is very important that you place the ceramic on with the beaker upside down (as illustrated in the instructions) otherwise the pressure bubble will not be formed correctly when you invert it.

[jedimasterben]

The diving bell that is created is actually quite sophisticated but I assure you no peroxide should be escaping if you follow the initial setup correct. It is very important that you place the ceramic on with the beaker upside down (as illustrated in the instructions) otherwise the pressure bubble will not be formed correctly when you invert it.

Uh... what? The ceramic housing does not create a diving bell, it is not and cannot be sealed. The underside of the acrylic reservoir does, however, as that is the only thing that can prevent aquarium water from entering the reservoir, but that does not mean that peroxide can not drip in the aquarium water that is now inside the ceramic housing. If I have time (will be assembling some lighting) I will pull my oxydator out and put it into a beaker to show you that no diving bell is formed by the housing. The acrylic reservoir is smaller in diameter than the inner diameter of the ceramic housing.

[CronicReefer]

Uh... what? The ceramic housing does not create a diving bell, it is not and cannot be sealed. The underside of the acrylic reservoir does, however, as that is the only thing that can prevent aquarium water from entering the reservoir, but that does not mean that peroxide can not drip in the aquarium water that is now inside the ceramic housing. If I have time (will be assembling some lighting) I will pull my oxydator out and put it into a beaker to show you that no diving bell is formed by the housing. The acrylic reservoir is smaller in diameter than the inner diameter of the ceramic housing.

I understand it is not a full diving bell (I merely call it this because it is the best description of what it is) but that is an important fact because it is what allows the water and O2 to flow freely into the aquarium, it wouldn't work properly if it was sealed. I understand some aquarium water may flow into the diving bell as well but that is not an issue because the peroxide will be broken down before it ever enters the actual aquarium water stream.

[aviator300]

This thread is hilarious but very entertaining..

 

I think the folks selling these things are loving threads like this also as they listen to the sound of free enterprise.

Like. Cha-ching, Cha-ching, Cha-ching.

[albertthiel]

This thread is hilarious but very entertaining..

 

I think the folks selling these things are loving threads like this also as they listen to the sound of free enterprise.

Like. Cha-ching, Cha-ching, Cha-ching.

 

Yes indeed for hardly any comments on Oxydators a while ago now we have pages and pages of discussion which is good

 

Albert

[afyounie]

Definitely like the discussion. Just wish the manufacturer would be a bit more open on how the whole thing works and how they arrived at this conclusion. To me, it looks like just another method to increase the O2 content in the water. Why this method though? What makes it better than anything else? How did they test to make sure it works? I get that people who've used it since 1988 say it works, but what makes them say this? Have they tried any other methods for comparison? I'm not saying this thing doesn't work though. I'm sure it does. And I'm sure peroxide is getting into the tank. Just its such a small dose so nothing negative happens. Nothing is perfect. Especially nothing that is mass produced for consumers.

[tibbsy07]

The diving bell on the nano version is not solid all the way around the bottom. There are 4 little "legs" that come out from the lid, not like a full circle. It doesn't seal all the way because it can't.

Definitely like the discussion. Just wish the manufacturer would be a bit more open on how the whole thing works and how they arrived at this conclusion. To me, it looks like just another method to increase the O2 content in the water. Why this method though? What makes it better than anything else? How did they test to make sure it works? I get that people who've used it since 1988 say it works, but what makes them say this? Have they tried any other methods for comparison? I'm not saying this thing doesn't work though. I'm sure it does. And I'm sure peroxide is getting into the tank. Just its such a small dose so nothing negative happens. Nothing is perfect. Especially nothing that is mass produced for consumers.

This method allows for a controlled release of hydrogen peroxide into oxygen into the water column. It allows oxygen dosing without bells and whistles and expensive equipment. I have no doubt there are benefits. I haven't seen them yet. One could probably also see the benefits with dosing hydrogen peroxide regularly.

[jedimasterben]

I understand it is not a full diving bell (I merely call it this because it is the best description of what it is) but that is an important fact because it is what allows the water and O2 to flow freely into the aquarium, it wouldn't work properly if it was sealed. I understand some aquarium water may flow into the diving bell as well but that is not an issue because the peroxide will be broken down before it ever enters the actual aquarium water stream.

How does it allow the water and O2 freely into the aquarium and NOT the peroxide that it is dosing? The patents explain exactly how this process works, that's the main thing I'm getting at here. Peroxide does not instantaneously react and break down upon touching something, it takes time. If a drop of peroxide is let out of the reservoir, the water flow in the tank or sump is going to very quickly pull it out and away from the ceramic and it will not have time to react and break down.