Kat's Ol' Max

[metrokat]

Hi Kat,

 

Having read about your issues, I can see where some of the confusion/contradiction/frustration is coming from.

 

Normally, the proper addition of a cal supplement (along with a balanced cal/alk regime) will raise cal to an appropriate level. That seems not to be happening here, or at least happening very slowly. Since you dropped a large amount of buffer in the tank, you could have some strange things going on.

 

Personally, I'd keep it simple and start with increased WCs Keep adding the additional calcium supplement, too, since it should eventually bring up the cal level.

 

As you go along, simply monitor your alk level and if it starts to drop you can increase WCs (if desired) and add more of the Kalk and/or balanced 2-part (your choice). I have to say I have no experience adding both Kalk and a '2-part', but it seems that some do it with apparent success.

 

If your cal levels just won't rise, then something is obviously binding the cal. Cross that bridge if you come to it...

Thank you.

[ZephNYC]

Zeph, it was NOT THREE HUNDRED.

 

How in the world do you translate THAT into me saying Hey dumbbell 30 TDS is A-okay? Did I say it was okay? Did I not tell you I have a TDS meter ont he way? Did I not tell you I PM'd AZDesertRat who is the expert on RODI units about it already?! Stop making me mad or I will steal your T. Gigas and put it in my bathtub! Grrrr

 

All I know is mine tested at 5ppm and your was over 300 ppm. I know your guy said 30, but who should I believe? You or my liar eyes?? Ro water sitting in a sealed plastic bottle will probably increase a LITTLE from the poluted air you trapped inside, but the plastic itself is not leaching any measurable amount in two weeks,

 

OMG Michael Clark Duncan died!!!! Dammmm..

[metrokat]

Your meter isn't even calibrated. For all I know you're testing your piss.

[ZephNYC]

Your meter isn't even calibrated. For all I know you're testing your piss.

 

I did. and it still tested better than your RO water.

[metrokat]

And just to remind YOU how frustrating it is talking with an advanced reefer

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?...t&p=3981445

[ZephNYC]

And just to remind YOU how frustrating it is talking with an advanced reefer

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?...t&p=3981445

 

Keep it up Batgirl. And soon the Metronema Katinisia will no longer be rare, but be flat out extinct.

[metrokat]

Oh go eat your pizza. You're low on sugar.

[Looselyhuman]

Wait, you guys put sugar in your pizza? No wonder all your params are messed up.

[metrokat]

 

I've added 1/4 tsp sugar so that the skimmer goes crazy. Nope. Didn't even blink.

[jedimasterben]

Why is your system using so much more carbonate than calcium I guess is the question. What are you correcting for? What are your levels (Ca, Alk, pH) without buffering? I've never seen a need for anything more than RODI+good salt mix, plus Kalk when the calcareous organism load gets moderate and 2-part when the load gets higher.

 

Edit: there might be a semantics thing here. I'm talking about 1-part buffers that affect only hardness and are used without a calcium counterpart. 2-part is also a buffer, but a balanced one. If you're using a 2-part, you don't need/want a 1-part. And if you're using a 1-part hardness buffer by itself, I thiink you're having a negative impact on calcium/alk ratio.

If I were to dose the calcium part of 2-part, my calcium would be through the roof. My magnesium and calcium levels are fine (1350ppm and 450ppm, respectively), just my alkalinity is falling much faster. Calcium has come down from over 500ppm (I have no idea how it got that high, I've never dosed for calcium, ever). I wouldn't say that I've got a whole lot of hard corals, a few SPS and a few LPS, and two small clams, one 2.5-3" squamosa and one 4-4.5" crocea.

 

tl;dr

 

Kalk that ####

 

 

That's part of the issue

 

even 30 TDS is no good and u know it big brain

Mine is 20 or so. Meh.

 

Stop making me mad or I will steal your T. Gigas and use it as a bathtub! Grrrr

ftfy.

 

Your meter isn't even calibrated. For all I know you're testing your piss.

 

Wait, you guys put sugar in your pizza? No wonder all your params are messed up.

 

That's essentially what the crust (and bread in general) is.

[Looselyhuman]

If I were to dose the calcium part of 2-part, my calcium would be through the roof. My magnesium and calcium levels are fine (1350ppm and 450ppm, respectively), just my alkalinity is falling much faster. Calcium has come down from over 500ppm (I have no idea how it got that high, I've never dosed for calcium, ever). I wouldn't say that I've got a whole lot of hard corals, a few SPS and a few LPS, and two small clams, one 2.5-3" squamosa and one 4-4.5" crocea.

I'd also (same as Kat) be curious to know what your Ca/Alk is when freshly mixed, and at what point the Alk is falling below your desired level (and if that corresponds to the point in time your Ca is rising).

 

That's essentially what the crust (and bread in general) is.

Yeah OK so much for being funny. Not going to get into the difference between carbohydrates and simple sugars, etc.

[Reef Casa]

T

 

I AM SO MAD!

 

= why I dont dose $#%^

Edited September 4, 2012 by marc3lo19

[Nano sapiens]

= why I dont dose $#%^

 

Dosing is virtually unavoidable if you have a good amount of organisms that rely on calcification and you want them to thrive/live...unless you do daily WCs or have constant flow-through from the ocean

 

If you just have a few calcify organisms, then WCs can keep up with the demand without dosing cal/alk.

[jedimasterben]

I'd also (same as Kat) be curious to know what your Ca/Alk is when freshly mixed, and at what point the Alk is falling below your desired level (and if that corresponds to the point in time your Ca is rising).

 

 

Yeah OK so much for being funny. Not going to get into the difference between carbohydrates and simple sugars, etc.

I haven't tested my mixing water since it was mixed when I started the tank. Calcium was about 500ppm and alk was 11 something. When my calcium was high my alk was normal, but then alk started dropping and calcium did not for a while. All of a sudden calcium is lower than 500, not sure when it happened exactly, though. Like I said, zero idea what could possibly cause calcium to spike up. If you have any insight, I'm all ears! (Well, ya know, eyes )

 

And to a diabetic, doesn't matter whether simple sugar or carbohydrate, its all the same to me.

[Looselyhuman]

I haven't tested my mixing water since it was mixed when I started the tank. Calcium was about 500ppm and alk was 11 something. When my calcium was high my alk was normal, but then alk started dropping and calcium did not for a while. All of a sudden calcium is lower than 500, not sure when it happened exactly, though. Like I said, zero idea what could possibly cause calcium to spike up. If you have any insight, I'm all ears! (Well, ya know, eyes )

 

Well, back to this link: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/11/chemistry

 

You think you're in Zone 4, I kind of suspect you're in Zone 2 ("All of a sudden calcium is lower than 500") but let's assume it's 4... It also sounds like you're starting with a very high-calcium salt mix, which would be fine as long as it's not coupled with very low Alk (I know).. But anyway, that is pretty much my situation too. So on top of Kalk I dose a little more of B-Ionic part A than part B, just because I know I don't need as much Calcium added.

 

But the thing I maintain, at least as a general rule, is as follows: If you hypothetically did a 100% water change, and assuming at that point your calcium is 500 and dKH is 9-11, then you started dripping Kalk (and added _nothing_ else), your Ca/Alk levels would stay basically stable, or decrease slightly, but in tandem. If they do decrease, I would start with 2-part.

 

If Alk decreased much faster than Ca, then I would know something is wrong. Perhaps a nutrient problem?

 

From the last section of that article ("Using Balanced Additives"):

 

Just as in many other fields of human endeavor, the easiest way to solve reef tank chemistry problems is to prevent them from happening in the first place.

...

Consequently, alkalinity depletion in most tanks (especially in short time frames) is tightly coupled to calcium depletion, and if one supplements calcium and alkalinity in proportions equal to those that they are being removed, then it is MUCH less likely that calcium and alkalinity will become imbalanced, and thereby trickier to correct. That is, the only problems that you will encounter are those in zones 1 and 2 (not enough or too much of these additives). Using a balanced scheme, you should not ever end up in zones 3 and 4, where you have substantial imbalances between calcium and alkalinity.

 

I know you're big on overfeeding so perhaps the nutrient thing is it (the Nitrate stuff he mentions), and that would make you an exception to the rules I suppose. But even if I were as committed to a lot of nutrient import as you are, I would still try to solve my problems with Kalk + 2-part (maybe a little heaver on A like I currently do) and perhaps by increasing nutrient export, etc. But here's what I would remember:

 

Additionally, overdosing of balanced additives typically seems to simply result in an increase in the amount of calcium carbonate that is being precipitated in the tank, and does not, in general, lead to substantial increases in dissolved calcium and alkalinity. This fortunate circumstance comes about largely because of the supersaturation of calcium carbonate1 in reef tanks.

 

And to a diabetic, doesn't matter whether simple sugar or carbohydrate, its all the same to me.

Fair enough.

[ZephNYC]

But the thing I maintain, at least as a general rule, is as follows: If you hypothetically did a 100% water change, and assuming at that point your calcium is 500 and dKH is 9-11, then you started dripping Kalk (and added _nothing_ else), your Ca/Alk levels would stay basically stable, or decrease slightly, but in tandem.

 

Genius. Where I have I heard this before ?

[patback]

Does anyone have a GOOD link to some Kalk information? What it does, how it does it, pros/cons?

[Looselyhuman]

Does anyone have a GOOD link to some Kalk information? What it does, how it does it, pros/cons?

 

Yeah, a good link is hard to find... Randy goes on some tangents in this one but at least all the science is sound: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.htm

 

There are very few cons IMO, except the worry about overdosing. If you have a reliable ATO there is just no reason not to be using Kalk. By reliable I mean one that can't easily get stuck in the "on" position. For example my JBJ has two safeties: Max 10 minute run time, and a second switch that kicks on (and the controller shuts down when it does) when the tank level rises higher than my primary switch's "off" height.

 

Hope it helps.

[metrokat]

= why I dont dose $#%^

Marc, what do you dose? and did you ever try KALK?

[metrokat]

Yeah, that's a pretty big deal. Kat, can you please run your Ca/Alk test on your freshly-mixed saltwater (let it mix for 3+ hours). Don't do anything to it besides use your high-TDS RO and normal salt at the normal SG.

Interested to see the results. Could change everything.

 

Good morning, I have the parameters you asked for.

 

Water has been mixing since last night with 30TDS RODI water:

1.025

Calc 500

dkh 9.3

Edited September 4, 2012 by metrokat

[Spirofucci]

FWIW, I think Hypso and Nano sapiens are on the right track. When you accidentally OD'd on buffers, doens't matter what kind, it may have binded alot of Ca. Having said that, I haver no idea how to fix it, other that multiple WC's. I know, that was a ton of help for you!

 

I'm sure the answer is a simple inorganic chemistry problem. I'd be very interested to see what you hear from your friends on RC.

 

Good luck my dear!

[metrokat]

FWIW, I think Hypso and Nano sapiens are on the right track. When you accidentally OD'd on buffers, doens't matter what kind, it may have binded alot of Ca. Having said that, I haver no idea how to fix it, other that multiple WC's. I know, that was a ton of help for you!

 

I'm sure the answer is a simple inorganic chemistry problem. I'd be very interested to see what you hear from your friends on RC.

 

Good luck my dear!

Mark, that actually makes the most sense of all of it. My gut tells me the SAME thing. I've stopped this KALK BS, when the tank is steady at normal levels through water changes for at least 2 weeks, I will consider KALK again.

[ZephNYC]

Mark, that actually makes the most sense of all of it. My gut tells me the SAME thing. I've stopped this KALK BS, when the tank is steady at normal levels through water changes for at least 2 weeks, I will consider KALK again.

 

Your problems may have nothing to do at all with Ca+/DKH composit water chemistry. You do not have a ph meter so you have no clue about your PH jump when your ato delivers all that kalk. We have spoke about the cautions of using kalk on nano tanks. My guess is your birdnest has suffered ph shock.

[Deleted User 3]

And just to remind YOU how frustrating it is talking with an advanced reefer

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?...t&p=3981445

 

I'm laughing so hard Im crying, i have tears everywhere.. lol

[Looselyhuman]

Good morning all.

 

Good morning, I have the parameters you asked for.

 

Water has been mixing since last night with 30TDS RODI water:

1.025

Calc 500

dkh 9.3

 

So, your high TDS is a concern (what ARE those solids?) but at least it's not affecting your Ca/Alk negatively. Good to know.

 

Mark, that actually makes the most sense of all of it. My gut tells me the SAME thing. I've stopped this KALK BS, when the tank is steady at normal levels through water changes for at least 2 weeks, I will consider KALK again.

 

Ok, but remember your problems started when that buffer was OD-d. Kalk may or may not have exacerbated that issue but it's not your enemy.

 

Your problems may have nothing to do at all with Ca+/DKH composit water chemistry. You do not have a ph meter so you have no clue about your PH jump when your ato delivers all that kalk. We have spoke about the cautions of using kalk on nano tanks. My guess is your birdnest has suffered ph shock.

 

You sir, are the master of the moving target. But it is admittedly possible that, with the ratio being so far out of whack, adding Kalk has had an inordinate affect on Alk and pH. Those Hydroxide ions may be floating around in a free state longer than usual. But for the record I have Kalk ATO on my little 10 gallon and it never affects the pH by more than 0.2. And I don't have a sump like Kat does. Kat's total water volume is probably about 40 gallons, I believe? And her ATO does 1-1.5 gallons which is 2-3% per day. Mine is perhaps a little less as a percentage, so there's that.

 

However, all of this goes back to the ratio being out of whack after the OD incident - that's first and foremost. In addressing that issue with water changes Kat's on the right track. I just wish it wasn't coming down as an indictment of Kalk, along with a probable resistance to using it later. Without it, she's likely to reach for that buffer again at some point...