Kat's Ol' Max

[ZephNYC]

I just wish it wasn't coming down as an indictment of Kalk, along with a probable resistance to using it later. Without it, she's likely to reach for that buffer again at some point...

 

Hyps,

FINALLY!!!!!! Someone else to back up what I have been telling her for months. I think I like you!!!! And thats HUGE for me because as most people know, we Italians like animals far more than we like people.

[patback]

So let's say I saturate my top off water with kalk and purchase an ato. If I do a large percentage water change and bump my calcium and alk up manually, when my ato kicked on, would my calcium go too high, or is it a natural sort of thing?

[jedimasterben]

Well, back to this link: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/11/chemistry

 

You think you're in Zone 4, I kind of suspect you're in Zone 2 ("All of a sudden calcium is lower than 500") but let's assume it's 4... It also sounds like you're starting with a very high-calcium salt mix, which would be fine as long as it's not coupled with very low Alk (I know).. But anyway, that is pretty much my situation too. So on top of Kalk I dose a little more of B-Ionic part A than part B, just because I know I don't need as much Calcium added.

I cannot be in zone 2, calcium does not measure low, only alkalinity, and even then, it is only after a while. The salt I use is Reef Crystals, which has an enormous calcium and alkalinity level when mixed to 35ppt (as opposed to 27ppt that it says to mix it to normally). I am in the process of raising my alkalinity level, at the suggestion of ZephNYC. Currently sitting at 11.6dKh when I last checked, I have since dosed more sodium bicarbonate to bring it up more (to see how high I can get it before it begins to precipitate calcium).

 

At any rate, my calcium level has not dropped, therefore I will not dose for it, otherwise I will only create more problems. They are not both being consumed evenly to require dosing of both parts.

 

But the thing I maintain, at least as a general rule, is as follows: If you hypothetically did a 100% water change, and assuming at that point your calcium is 500 and dKH is 9-11, then you started dripping Kalk (and added _nothing_ else), your Ca/Alk levels would stay basically stable, or decrease slightly, but in tandem. If they do decrease, I would start with 2-part.

 

If Alk decreased much faster than Ca, then I would know something is wrong. Perhaps a nutrient problem?

If I did a 100% changed and dosed Kalk, then at the rate that my levels are dropping (alk quickly and calcium not so much), then I would have precipitation occur and cause problems, right?

 

I know you're big on overfeeding so perhaps the nutrient thing is it (the Nitrate stuff he mentions), and that would make you an exception to the rules I suppose. But even if I were as committed to a lot of nutrient import as you are, I would still try to solve my problems with Kalk + 2-part (maybe a little heaver on A like I currently do) and perhaps by increasing nutrient export, etc.

This brings up a good point that I had to do some research on

 

In this article (here: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/index.php ), Randy Holmes-Farley mentions this, as far as carbonate being used in the nitrogen cycle:

 

Alkalinity Decline in the Nitrogen Cycle

One of the best known chemical cycles in aquaria is the nitrogen cycle. In it, ammonia excreted by fish and other organisms is converted into nitrate. This conversion produces acid, H+ (or uses alkalinity depending on how one chooses to look at it), as shown in equation 1:

 

(1) NH3 + 2O2 � NO3- + H+ + H2O

For each ammonia molecule converted into nitrate, one hydrogen ion (H+) is produced. If nitrate is allowed to accumulate to 50 ppm, the addition of this acid will deplete 0.8 meq/L (2.3 dKH) of alkalinity.

 

However, the news is not all bad. When this nitrate proceeds further along the nitrogen cycle, depleted alkalinity is returned in exactly the amount lost. For example, if the nitrate is allowed to be converted into N2 in a sand bed, one of the products is bicarbonate, as shown in equation 2 (below) for the breakdown of glucose and nitrate under typical anoxic conditions as might happen in a deep sand bed:

 

(2) 4NO3- + 5/6 C6H12O6 (glucose) + 4H2O � 2 N2 + 7H2O + 4HCO3- + CO2

 

In equation 2 we see that exactly one bicarbonate ion is produced for each nitrate ion consumed. Consequently, the alkalinity gain is 0.8 meq/L (2.3 dKH) for every 50 ppm of nitrate consumed.

 

Likewise, equation 3 (below) shows the uptake of nitrate and CO2 into macroalgae to form typical organic molecules:

 

(3) 122 CO2 + 122 H2O + 16 NO3- � C106H260O106N16 + 138 O2 + 16 HCO3-

 

Again, one bicarbonate ion is produced for each nitrate ion consumed.

 

It turns out that as long as the nitrate concentration is stable, regardless of its actual value, there is no ongoing net depletion of alkalinity. Of course, alkalinity was depleted to reach that value, but once it stabilizes, there is no continuing alkalinity depletion because the export processes described above are exactly balancing the depletion from nitrification (the conversion of ammonia to nitrate).

 

There are, however, circumstances where the alkalinity is lost in the conversion of ammonia to nitrate, and is never returned. The most likely scenario to be important in reef aquaria is when nitrate is removed through water changes. In that case, each water change takes out some nitrate, and if the system produces nitrate to get back to some stable level, the alkalinity again becomes depleted.

 

If, for example, nitrate averages 50 ppm at each water change, then over the course of a year with 10 water changes of 20% each, the alkalinity will be depleted by 1.6 meq/L (4.5 dKH) over the course of that entire time period. This process is one of the primary reasons that fish-only aquaria that often export nitrate in water changes need occasional buffer additions to replace that depleted alkalinity.

 

While the magnitude of the depletion described in the paragraph above is fairly easy to understand, it also can be converted into units that clarify the imbalance. The impact of alkalinity depletion on the calcium and alkalinity demand balance depends, of course, on the amount of calcium and alkalinity added (and consumed) over the course of that same year.

 

For a typical reef aquarium (assuming a daily addition of saturated limewater equal to 2% of the tank's volume), the amount of alkalinity added during the course of a year is 297.8 meq/L. Likewise, the amount of calcium added is 5,957 ppm Ca++, given the ratio of 1 meq/L of alkalinity for every 20 ppm of calcium that has been discussed above. If that 1.6 meq/L of alkalinity is added to create a larger demand of 299.4 meq/L over the course of a year, the new ratio for the total demand becomes 19.90 ppm Ca++ per 1 meq/L of alkalinity. Consequently, while this effect of nitrate production on alkalinity is enough to be noticed over the course of a year, it is substantially smaller than the other effects discussed in this article, and is unimportant for aquaria that maintain low nitrate levels.

 

This would make sense, except that my nitrate is either A- used by my two clams, or B- used by denitrifying bacteria as a result of carbon dosing, both of which will reduce nitrate into free nitrogen and release a bicarbonate ion. The only way I can explain my significant drop is if my clams are not releasing the bicarbonate ion and simply using it for their shell. By my measurements, these two clams are taking in an enormous amount of nitrate that I simply cannot measure anymore. Before, I could stop dosing carbon and measure nitrate levels over a week period or two and see what the carbon brings it down to, but with the clams taking in nitrate 24/7, I can't exactly figure out what is the carbon and what is the clams.

 

 

The article also states that calcium and carbonate are used to form calcium bicarbonate in a 1:2.5 ratio, so for every 1ppm of calcium used, alkalinity will drop by 2.5ppm. Interesting to know. Also interesting is that magnesium and strontium can actually be used in placed of calcium in the bond.

 

 

Just want to thank you again for bringing it up, otherwise I would not have found that article, and I learned a lot from it (and still reading and learning).

 

Good morning, I have the parameters you asked for.

 

Water has been mixing since last night with 30TDS RODI water:

1.025

Calc 500

dkh 9.3

WTF, 30TDS after the DI resin? You haven't had that thing long, have you? What is your tap water TDS, and what is the TDS of the RO water (before it hits the DI resin)? What unit do you have, isn't it a BRS unit?

 

So let's say I saturate my top off water with kalk and purchase an ato. If I do a large percentage water change and bump my calcium and alk up manually, when my ato kicked on, would my calcium go too high, or is it a natural sort of thing?

If either calcium or alkalinity rise above what your magnesium level can keep them dissolved at, both will precipitate out and you will be left with even less than you began with.

Edited September 4, 2012 by jedimasterben

[Looselyhuman]

Hyps,

FINALLY!!!!!! Someone else to back up what I have been telling her for months. I think I like you!!!!

 

Ha, thanks Zeph, hoping that's not this kiss of death after all this!

 

And thats HUGE for me because as most people know, we Italians like animals far more than we like people.

 

Apparently this is also true of Irish-German-French-Italian-Lebanese mutts! Lol.

 

So Kat's getting some pretty good advice over at RC. Tom, one of the moderators, said something that kind of ties into what we're saying about the artificially high Alk + Kalk and how that would effect pH:

 

3 tsps of kalk( calcium hydroxide) on top of a dkh of 15k is too much. I would not dose any when alk was that high.

 

As top off the 3 tsps should not be dosed at more than 1/4tsp in any given hour for a 50 gallon system( So 3 tsps mixed in 1.5 gallons shuld be dosed over at least 12 hours) to allow Co2 to re enter the water via gas exchange with lthe air and in so doing minimize the chance of a ph spike. Dosing it when dkh and/ or ph is already high from buffer dosing will cause precipitation and very high ph. These things will stress oreven kill corals .

 

Also

 

Dosing buffers without a balanced amount of calcium except for one time adjustments is not a good thing to do. Dosing buffers "like mad" will ruin a tank. Continuous dosing of buffers without balanced calcium will make the tank unstable .

 

So to sum up the general gist of all the advice as I see it:

 

1.) Stop dosing anything for now, focus on water changes until Alk and Ca are back in the green zone. I realize I previously supported continued 2-part, but why not just keep it simple and focus on the WCs?

2.) Once #1 is good, start with Kalk (perhaps 1tsp/gal?) on ATO - hopefully the ATO is doing even small-dose intervals well-spaced throughout the day..?

3.) Test Ca/Alk every 1-2 days to monitor depletion.

4.) If it's depleting significantly, go to 2tsp, keep testing. If still depleting, start back up with 2-part.

5.) Don't dose anything else that affects Ca/Alk. She might consider Mag but that's later.

 

Would you agree Zeph?

[Looselyhuman]

Ben, I think you have a special situation and anything we discuss for you probably doesn't really apply to Kat's situation. I'm going to reply in your thread. Interesting stuff.

[metrokat]

Hyps,

FINALLY!!!!!! Someone else to back up what I have been telling her for months. I think I like you!!!! And thats HUGE for me because as most people know, we Italians like animals far more than we like people.

 

HI YO-YO. Just so we're clear, what have you been telling me to do for months?

Use KALK? Yup did it

Use KALK+2 product? Yup did it

Use Super DKH buffer from Kent - yup did it

Use Calcium Chloride? Yup did it

 

And your point was what again?

 

Your problems may have nothing to do at all with Ca+/DKH composit water chemistry. You do not have a ph meter so you have no clue about your PH jump when your ato delivers all that kalk. We have spoke about the cautions of using kalk on nano tanks. My guess is your birdnest has suffered ph shock.

 

I think Hyps and I are in agreement. You constantly change the argument to add something new to the equation. His response is below.

 

You sir, are the master of the moving target. But it is admittedly possible that, with the ratio being so far out of whack, adding Kalk has had an inordinate affect on Alk and pH. Those Hydroxide ions may be floating around in a free state longer than usual. But for the record I have Kalk ATO on my little 10 gallon and it never affects the pH by more than 0.2. And I don't have a sump like Kat does. Kat's total water volume is probably about 40 gallons, I believe? And her ATO does 1-1.5 gallons which is 2-3% per day. Mine is perhaps a little less as a percentage, so there's that.

 

However, all of this goes back to the ratio being out of whack after the OD incident - that's first and foremost. In addressing that issue with water changes Kat's on the right track. I just wish it wasn't coming down as an indictment of Kalk, along with a probable resistance to using it later. Without it, she's likely to reach for that buffer again at some point...

 

 

I am in the process of raising my alkalinity level, at the suggestion of ZephNYC. Currently sitting at 11.6dKh when I last checked, I have since dosed more sodium bicarbonate to bring it up more (to see how high I can get it before it begins to precipitate calcium).

Let me stop you for a second. Your ALK is 11.6 and you want to bump it up?

Why?

[kgoldy]

Kat asked me yesterday if I remembered what my Calcium and Alkalinity levels were last time I checked in my reef... I don't even remember what the safe range is.

[metrokat]

WTF, 30TDS after the DI resin? You haven't had that thing long, have you? What is your tap water TDS, and what is the TDS of the RO water (before it hits the DI resin)? What unit do you have, isn't it a BRS unit?

I'm working on this with AZDesert Rat. But the unit is a spectrapure, in use since May 2012.

[metrokat]

Ho Kat's getting some pretty good advice over at RC. Tom, one of the moderators, said something that kind of ties into what we're saying about the artificially high Alk + Kalk and how that would effect pH:

PH is testing consistently at 8.3, even right now with cal at 300 and dkh at 9.3

[mpsti05]

Hows the sugar dosing? I think i may start trying it today before i decide to purchase that new cadlights nano biopellet reactor

[metrokat]

Because pictures speak louder than words

 

Before KALK

 

With KALK

 

Today, 48 hours after stopping KALK

 

Hows the sugar dosing? I think i may start trying it today before i decide to purchase that new cadlights nano biopellet reactor

I'm not dosing sugar, I tried it twice for kicks, didn't do anything that I could notice.

[mpsti05]

Because pictures speak louder than words

 

Before KALK

 

With KALK

 

Today, 48 hours after stopping KALK

Interesting... well i gave it a try aswell....

 

I'm not dosing sugar, I tried it twice for kicks, didn't do anything that I could notice.

[jedimasterben]

Ben, I think you have a special situation and anything we discuss for you probably doesn't really apply to Kat's situation. I'm going to reply in your thread. Interesting stuff.

Good deal. Thanks!

 

Let me stop you for a second. Your ALK is 11.6 and you want to bump it up?

Why?

lol, Zeph's recommendation.

 

I'm working on this with AZDesert Rat. But the unit is a spectrapure, in use since May 2012.

He will certainly know how to proceed, but there should be no reason for your DI resin and RO filter to be shot in such a short amount of time, unless your starting TDS is off the charts.

 

Hows the sugar dosing? I think i may start trying it today before i decide to purchase that new cadlights nano biopellet reactor

If you do not have a skimmer, do not do it. A biopellet reactor is meant to house nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria, not remove them from the water column. When carbon dosing, their numbers increase exponentially, and if they are not removed from the system via skimming or significant water changes, you can run into some real trouble. They will deplete oxygen in your tank so fast you won't know what hit it.

[ZephNYC]

Good deal. Thanks!

 

 

lol, Zeph's recommendation.

 

I keep DKH at 10 - 12 for sps and clam growth. Im trying to get it to remain a steady 12, but keep having problems with my doser.

Edited September 4, 2012 by ZephNYC

[Looselyhuman]

Let me stop you for a second. Your ALK is 11.6 and you want to bump it up?

Why?

 

Yeah, I don't know why you guys are pushing the alk so hard. It's really not necessary IMO. Keep it simpler. If the ca/Alk balance of your salt is not what you want, maybe look at that, also.

 

Responded to Ben in his thread.

[ZephNYC]

Good deal. Thanks!

 

 

 

He will certainly know how to proceed, but there should be no reason for your DI resin and RO filter to be shot in such a short amount of time, unless your starting TDS is off the charts.

 

Sure there is. She never changed her carbon block so chlorine may have destroyed her RO membrane.

[jedimasterben]

Sure there is. She never changed her carbon block so chlorine may have destroyed her RO membrane.

AZdesertrat has said many times in threads to replace the carbon block every six months, used a lot or not, so I don't think that could have played a role in it, unless the water in NYC is actually just chlorine

[patback]

Ny waters actually use copepods to help with water quality.

 

... The more you know *

[ZephNYC]

AZdesertrat has said many times in threads to replace the carbon block every six months, used a lot or not, so I don't think that could have played a role in it, unless the water in NYC is actually just chlorine

 

yes, Thats what they say- 6 months. I change mine every 2 months. My unit runs 24/7.

[metrokat]

He will certainly know how to proceed, but there should be no reason for your DI resin and RO filter to be shot in such a short amount of time, unless your starting TDS is off the charts.

AZdesertrat has said many times in threads to replace the carbon block every six months, used a lot or not, so I don't think that could have played a role in it, unless the water in NYC is actually just chlorine

 

Yes, won't know my starting tds till my meter arrives. I'm curious too.

 

Sure there is. She never changed her carbon block so chlorine may have destroyed her RO membrane.

Curious how long you think my carbon block has been in use? We discussed this over the phone but I don;t think you remember. So tell me? How long do you think it has been since I have changed the carbon block on my RODI machine?

 

lol, Zeph's recommendation.

And the reason for the recommendation?

 

Yeah, I don't know why you guys are pushing the alk so hard. It's really not necessary IMO. Keep it simpler. If the ca/Alk balance of your salt is not what you want, maybe look at that, also.

Agreed.

[metrokat]

Curious how long you think my carbon block has been in use? We discussed this over the phone but I don;t think you remember. So tell me? How long do you think it has been since I have changed the carbon block on my RODI machine?

 

yoo hoo zephikins, come out come out wherever you are.

[Spirofucci]

Hey, you got some good replies over there on RC! Once they saw those legs they jumped all over it!!

 

I said hi, but didn't want to admit I know you.

[Looselyhuman]

Once they saw those legs they jumped all over it!!

 

Yup!! I choose to believe those are actually Kat's stems.

[metrokat]

Hey, you got some good replies over there on RC! Once they saw those legs they jumped all over it!!

I said hi, but didn't want to admit I know you.

Yup!! I choose to believe those are actually Kat's stems.

I'll have to make one of these for RC maybe

[kgoldy]

I've got the Spectrapure MaxCap... Running since Jan 2011, haven't changed a single membrane, and it's still testing 0 TDS before it makes it to the RO membrane. What the eff is in your Durty Jerzy waters?