Kat's Ol' Max

[kgoldy]

I've completely neglected MR... when is the fall swap?

[metrokat]

I've completely neglected MR... when is the fall swap?

Nov 18th

[metrokat]

Equipment news.

 

1. I traded in my CPR Nano reactor for a Phosban 150 reactor with Sushi Yum. That was a win win.

 

2. Just bought a TDS meter and calibration fluid from Amazon with free 2 day shipping. My RODI TDS tested at 30 at the LFS and I PM'd AZDesertrat about what I needed to change. He shot me back a ton of questions which I can't answer without a TDS meter so there.

 

3. Bought a refractometer off eBay.

[Spirofucci]

I love the sump shot! NICE!!!!!

[metrokat]

I love the sump shot! NICE!!!!!

Meh, the pink Galaxy is disintegrating so it looks like a bomb went off in the upper left corner. I'm about to move the large rock with my brain coral and halimeda to the sump.

[metrokat]

Tank Chemistry Issues Update

My tank went from 490+ calcium to the 200-300 range in a very short amount of time. I did not change my salt mix or add new coral. I have a lot of coralline and SPS but equal if not more amounts of softies and LPS. The major fall in calcium happened on July 27 when 32oz of buffer got dumped all at one into the tank sky rocketing the dKH to 15. This caused the calcium what was previously always recorded at the 490+ range to fall to the 300 range.

 

I did a large water change and recorded I was back to my baseline of Calcium 470- on August 6. However that appears to be short lived also. On Aug 25 calcium measured at 250, dkh at 6.1 (10 days without waterchange)

 

So in went KALK into the ATO and I also started supplementing Part A, calcium supplement. Calcium has been at 300 but dkh is at 8.3. The KALK dosage is 3teaspoons in 2 G of water. My tank uses 1-1.5G of top off daily.

 

During all of this, let's talk about corals.

My zoanthids and palys are booming!

Some of the SPS are not happy. Some LPS are not happy. I see reduced polyp extension and the coral is not fluffy like it used to be. My HH brain coral is my indicator of tank happiness and it has not been really pleased for at least 10 days now. The same 10 days that I have been dosing KALK.

 

So. in conclusion, I have some questions

Is KALK helping me or not?

Why are my corals pissed off?

What can I do besides more of Part A to get my Calcium back to the 400's?

If my water change gets my calcium high enough, should I be doing more frequent changes, like twice a wekk?

What can cause such a rapid absorption or decline of calcium in the water?

[Looselyhuman]

Hi Kat,

 

Lots of people with mixed reefs like yours do saturated Kalk (2 tsp/gallon) ATO + regular 2-part (usually slightly more Alk than CA once things are balanced) and nothing else.

 

Are you still using any buffers?

 

It's possibly that your substrate is acting as a carbonate hardness buffer. You may have supercharged it with the overdose and now it is basically leeching. Someone like Randy Holmes-Farley at RC might be the best person to ask.

 

If so I would think that dosing 2-part but with an emphasis on the Ca part (for now) would be the right strategy. I wouldn't _only_ dose one or the other like you are now, but rather play with the balance. It may just take some more time.

 

In short, Kalk is almost always good, as long as it's used consistently and not overdosed - and none of the precipitate is making it into the display. It's also usually good to not dose it freshly mixed, either. Letting it sit for 30-60 mins before hte ATO kicks in is good.

 

I know you're getting similar advice from Zeph and others, hoping this $0.02 helps.

 

Edit - see Zone 3: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/11/chemistry

 

He suggests Calcium Chloride, and is actually OK w/just the Calcium part of 2-part temporarily. More water changes are another option.

Edited September 3, 2012 by Hypsophrys

[metrokat]

Hi Kat,

 

Lots of people with mixed reefs like yours do saturated Kalk (2 tsp/gallon) ATO + regular 2-part (usually slightly more Alk than CA once things are balanced) and nothing else.

 

Are you still using any buffers?

 

It's possibly that your substrate is acting as a carbonate hardness buffer. You may have supercharged it with the overdose and now it is basically leeching. Someone like Randy Holmes-Farley at RC might be the best person to ask.

 

If so I would think that dosing 2-part but with an emphasis on the Ca part (for now) would be the right strategy. I wouldn't _only_ dose one or the other like you are now, but rather play with the balance. It may just take some more time.

 

In short, Kalk is almost always good, as long as it's used consistently and not overdosed - and none of the precipitate is making it into the display. It's also usually good to not dose it freshly mixed, either. Letting it sit for 30-60 mins before hte ATO kicks in is good.

 

I know you're getting similar advice from Zeph and others, hoping this $0.02 helps.

 

Edit - see Zone 3: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/11/chemistry

 

He suggests Calcium Chloride, and is actually OK w/just the Calcium part of 2-part temporarily. More water changes are another option.

 

Hy Hy (see what I did there!)

Thanks for the message. I'm pretty distressed at how pissed off some of my sensitive SPS are.

I've been careful to let the mixture sit for an hour before putting it in the ATO.

I am not using any buffers at the moment.

I'm not on RC or I would ask Randy, I have a friend on the forum who might ask for me.

 

Zeph strongly supports KALK in writing, but consistently over the phone has mixed feelings about it. He's always told me people have great success with KALK but he has mixed feelings and success with it and yet strongly advises me to use it. Just today we were talking about it, again, and he suggests the KALK+2 product might be the issue.

 

All I can tell you is that some of my corals are pissed and I'm pissed.

 

REPEAT ZEPH SUGGESTED THE PRODUCT IS THE ISSUE. Because he has a faulty memory and always comes back and says Kat said her product is faulty. I didn't, HE DID.

[metrokat]

Also, Hy, I have been following that very article from advances aquarist since the start of my Calc/alk issues.

 

Initially I had high Calcium and low dKH (in the 7.1 range) and the article said not to dose KALK when this particular imbalance occurs (Zone 4)

 

"Many commercial alkalinity supplements will also be fine for this purpose, as long as no significant calcium is added. In general, I don’t prefer those that contain substantial borate. The alkalinity component of the two-part calcium and alkalinity additive systems would be OK. You CANNOT use limewater or a calcium carbonate/carbon dioxide reactor to correct this problem. Any of the balanced calcium and alkalinity additive systems will move you parallel to the line at the left edge of the zone, while you want to move over to it, and cross it."

 

Initially when I refused to use KALK I was pounced on.

Then when I used a mild solution using a drip I was mocked.

Yeah I've been using 3tsp in 2 gallons in my ATO since the last week of August. Want to see my lovely KALK results?

 

 

I AM SO MAD!

[metrokat]

My open brain coral, mancina, has been with me for a year. I look to this coral as in indication of the health of my tank.

Before KALK - all nice and fluffy. After KALK - tightly wound up and grumpy

 

However it is not all doom and gloom in the tank. The Z's and P's are very happy. I've had more polyp growth in the last 10 days than I have in the last 2 months.

 

And there are plenty of SPS that are doing just dandy

[jedimasterben]

...he suggests the KALK+2 product might be the issue...

which is great because I bought some based on his recommendation.

 

...In general, I don’t prefer those that contain substantial borate...

Which is most commercial buffer solutions, hence why I use baked baking soda (sodium carbonate).

[metrokat]

Borate free Buffer

http://www.continuumaquatics.com/marine_ph..._khbuffer_d.php

Edited September 4, 2012 by metrokat

[Looselyhuman]

I know this is totally frustrating. I've been lurking on this convo for almost a month.

 

I've read that Kalk+2 is worthless because the +2 part just doesn't work when dosed that way. Unless you have low Mag I wouldn't even bother with worrying about Magnesium, just get good straight-up Kalk (Seachem for me).

 

Per RHF re Kalk+2:

Unfortunately, it is a very poorly designed product that won't work. It has very little magnesium in it, but even that will precipitate out in limewater as magnesium hydroxide.

 

So, yes you want to dose Kalk to _keep_ both levels higher in tandem, but it will not change the ratios (so will not solve Zone 3 or Zone 4 as you mention). That is generally why people use Kalk AND 2-part. You can use Kalk as your baseline-keep-everything-elevated-as-part-of-normal-topoff, then you get to use less of the (more expensive and more manual) 2-part than you would otherwise have to, in order to perfect the levels and ratios. With the 2-part you can tweak the ratio by adding more or less of one component or the other. It's not very good, as you've noticed, at affecting a drastic change in a short period of time. I think a WC regimen is your best bet to get back to a good starting place.

 

I don't reallly see a reason to stop Kalk (except maybe the +2 part) but it isn't going to solve the imbalance.

 

W/regards to your coral health/indicators, look to your levels, not to what you're dosing. Your calcium is drastically low. You need to get it back in range and get the good 450Ca/9dKH ratio. Once you're there, use Kalk and 2-part to keep it there.

 

So, again, right now, leave the Kalk going (2 tsp, not 3 IMO), but ditch the +2. Keep doing the Ca part but I would say do the Alk part also - about 25-50% of the Ca part for now, but bring them closer as your ratios become more aligned. Do water changes (could you do 10% every 2-3 days for the next 1-2 weeks?) to help make the process move more quickly.

 

That is what I would do.

 

Edit after reading the last two replies: Just stay away from the buffers altogether guys. They will eff you up. If you need them then you're treating a symptom not the underlying problem.

Edited September 4, 2012 by Hypsophrys

[ZephNYC]

Hy Hy (see what I did there!)

Thanks for the message. I'm pretty distressed at how pissed off some of my sensitive SPS are.

I've been careful to let the mixture sit for an hour before putting it in the ATO.

I am not using any buffers at the moment.

I'm not on RC or I would ask Randy, I have a friend on the forum who might ask for me.

 

Zeph strongly supports KALK in writing, but consistently over the phone has mixed feelings about it. He's always told me people have great success with KALK but he has mixed feelings and success with it and yet strongly advises me to use it. Just today we were talking about it, again, and he suggests the KALK+2 product might be the issue.

 

All I can tell you is that some of my corals are pissed and I'm pissed.

 

REPEAT ZEPH SUGGESTED THE PRODUCT IS THE ISSUE. Because he has a faulty memory and always comes back and says Kat said her product is faulty. I didn't, HE DID.

 

I just want to do a quicky because I am out and about, and I dont think you mentioned this -

Your RO WATER IS OFF KEY. You have been doing water changes with very hard water, tap water pretty much, so that might be part of your problem. Even though my hardness monitor needed calibration, my RO water tested 4 ppm. Yours tested over 300.

I dont have faulty memory, you just get confused because you get 5,324 opinios for everything you do. KALK IS GOD when it comes to reef keeping, and i stand by this statement even on the phone. Admitedly, i am having mixed opinions on Brightwells Kalk+2 product, because I have had some problems as well, but have not varified it as the culprit yet.

Now I have to go, my Margarita is waiting.

[Looselyhuman]

Yours tested over 300.

 

Yeah, that's a pretty big deal. Kat, can you please run your Ca/Alk test on your freshly-mixed saltwater (let it mix for 3+ hours). Don't do anything to it besides use your high-TDS RO and normal salt at the normal SG.

 

Interested to see the results. Could change everything.

[metrokat]

My RODI tested at 30TDS at the LFS. Zeph used my RO which I gave him to test on August 19th at 3:30pm. It has been sitting in a bottle for 2 weeks, he tested it today.

 

 

 

Yeah, that's a pretty big deal. Kat, can you please run your Ca/Alk test on your freshly-mixed saltwater (let it mix for 3+ hours). Don't do anything to it besides use your high-TDS RO and normal salt at the normal SG.

 

Interested to see the results. Could change everything.

 

Zeph is wrong on my reading.

[Looselyhuman]

My RODI tested at 30TDS at the LFS. Zeph used my RO which I gave him to test on August 19th at 3:30pm. It has been sitting in a bottle for 2 weeks, he tested it today.

 

Zeph is wrong on my reading.

 

Ok. 30 TDS is still not great but it shouldn't be throwing your Ca/Alk out of whack. Still would be good to see what levels you're getting on fresh mixed ASW, just to rule out any problems there...

[jedimasterben]

Edit after reading the last two replies: Just stay away from the buffers altogether guys. They will eff you up. If you need them then you're treating a symptom not the underlying problem.

So stop bringing my alkalinity up and prevent my system from using carbonate?

[metrokat]

My own TDS meter is on it's way, I needed it to answer questions about what to replace on my spectrapure.

I'll get you the reading on fresh mix tomorrow. I appreciate your help. Also I just registered on RC and am writing a PM to Randy.

 

Edit: okay I'm not allowed to PM him. great.

[Looselyhuman]

So stop bringing my alkalinity up and prevent my system from using carbonate?

 

Why is your system using so much more carbonate than calcium I guess is the question. What are you correcting for? What are your levels (Ca, Alk, pH) without buffering? I've never seen a need for anything more than RODI+good salt mix, plus Kalk when the calcareous organism load gets moderate and 2-part when the load gets higher.

 

Edit: there might be a semantics thing here. I'm talking about 1-part buffers that affect only hardness and are used without a calcium counterpart. 2-part is also a buffer, but a balanced one. If you're using a 2-part, you don't need/want a 1-part. And if you're using a 1-part hardness buffer by itself, I thiink you're having a negative impact on calcium/alk ratio.

 

Edit: okay I'm not allowed to PM him. great.

Yeah I'd just post in his forum.

Edited September 4, 2012 by Hypsophrys

[kgoldy]

Tank Chemistry Issues Update

My tank went from 490+ calcium to the 200-300 range in a very short amount of time. I did not change my salt mix or add new coral. I have a lot of coralline and SPS but equal if not more amounts of softies and LPS. The major fall in calcium happened on July 27 when 32oz of buffer got dumped all at one into the tank sky rocketing the dKH to 15. This caused the calcium what was previously always recorded at the 490+ range to fall to the 300 range.

 

I did a large water change and recorded I was back to my baseline of Calcium 470- on August 6. However that appears to be short lived also. On Aug 25 calcium measured at 250, dkh at 6.1 (10 days without waterchange)

 

So in went KALK into the ATO and I also started supplementing Part A, calcium supplement. Calcium has been at 300 but dkh is at 8.3. The KALK dosage is 3teaspoons in 2 G of water. My tank uses 1-1.5G of top off daily.

 

During all of this, let's talk about corals.

My zoanthids and palys are booming!

Some of the SPS are not happy. Some LPS are not happy. I see reduced polyp extension and the coral is not fluffy like it used to be. My HH brain coral is my indicator of tank happiness and it has not been really pleased for at least 10 days now. The same 10 days that I have been dosing KALK.

 

So. in conclusion, I have some questions

Is KALK helping me or not?

Why are my corals pissed off?

What can I do besides more of Part A to get my Calcium back to the 400's?

If my water change gets my calcium high enough, should I be doing more frequent changes, like twice a wekk?

What can cause such a rapid absorption or decline of calcium in the water?

 

tl;dr

 

Kalk that ####

 

 

[ZephNYC]

My RODI tested at 30TDS at the LFS. Zeph used my RO which I gave him to test on August 19th at 3:30pm. It has been sitting in a bottle for 2 weeks, he tested it today.

 

 

 

 

 

Zeph is wrong on my reading.

 

even 30 TDS is no good and u know it big brain

[metrokat]

even 30 TDS is no good and u know it big brain

Zeph, it was NOT THREE HUNDRED.

 

How in the world do you translate THAT into me saying Hey dumbbell 30 TDS is A-okay? Did I say it was okay? Did I not tell you I have a TDS meter ont he way? Did I not tell you I PM'd AZDesertRat who is the expert on RODI units about it already?! Stop making me mad or I will steal your T. Gigas and put it in my bathtub! Grrrr

[Nano sapiens]

Hi Kat,

 

Having read about your issues, I can see where some of the confusion/contradiction/frustration is coming from.

 

Normally, the proper addition of a cal supplement (along with a balanced cal/alk regime) will raise cal to an appropriate level. That seems not to be happening here, or at least happening very slowly. Since you dropped a large amount of buffer in the tank, you could have some strange things going on.

 

Personally, I'd keep it simple and start with increased WCs Keep adding the additional calcium supplement, too, since it should eventually bring up the cal level.

 

As you go along, simply monitor your alk level and if it starts to drop you can increase WCs (if desired) and add more of the Kalk and/or balanced 2-part (your choice). I have to say I have no experience adding both Kalk and a '2-part', but it seems that some do it with apparent success.

 

If your cal levels just won't rise, then something is obviously binding the cal. Cross that bridge if you come to it...

[Looselyhuman]

^