Kinda's Large Tank Adventure (LTA)

[Kindanewtothis]

9 hours ago, mcarroll said:

I just realized that I haven't seen a full tank shot yet.

 

Can you post an updated full tank shot that also includes lighting and flow sources?  👍

What? You haven't read all 136 pages ? 🤣

 

Will take pictures today!

[Kindanewtothis]

13 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Can you post an updated full tank shot that also includes lighting and flow sources?

 

Full tank shot, 120g seapora dual overflow

 

Flow is just a Nero 3 (plus the dual returns). There was a Sicce Xstream3500 but it's gone since the anemone incident... Waiting for my nemguard for my new Nero 5 that will take the place of the Nero 3 on the left wall and the Nero 3 will go on the back wall about where the yellow tang is on the top picture.

 

Lighting is 2 Aquaillumination hydra 32hd. I use Saxby preset 

 

 

One of the overflow

 

The sump now, the right drain pipe cannot really move and I was stupid to put a valve there so it's even less flexible. I'm not using a filter sock on this one. The left drain is perfectly flexible and easy to move for maintenance.

 

Second chamber hold the skimmer (Simplicity 120DC), the heater (eheim jager 200w) and my Green killing machine 24w not currently working because the replacement bulb I got is now working... I would like a regular plumpled UV designed for a sump.

 

Next chamber is the refugium holds cheato and caulerpa and 2kg of ceramic bio media. The lighting there is total crap from amazon and I might get a AI prime fuge light someday but a less expensive option would be ok.

 

The last chamber is for the return pump (eflux DC flow pump 3000gph). I use sponges between the refugium and the return pump chamber.

[Kindanewtothis]

@seabass I will edit the first post someday!

[mcarroll]

4 hours ago, Kindanewtothis said:

Flow is just a Nero 3 (plus the dual returns).

Oh no....for a coral tank, that is almost no flow at all.  I will be a little surprised if it's even enough after you add the 5.....120 is a lot of gallons to flow!

 

Without adequate flow, every gram of food you add to the tank will end up as detritus down on the rocks and/or gather in corners that you'll then have to clean out.

 

Ideally you want flow strong enough to keep those particles afloat long enough for them to be consumed by your corals.

 

4 hours ago, Kindanewtothis said:

Next chamber is the refugium holds cheato and caulerpa and 2kg of ceramic bio media.

🤨  I think you just solved the mystery of why your tank has nutrient issues.  

 

Why is there a Cheato farm attached to your reef??!!   (I kid.  But seriously too!)

 

I would shut that chamber down completely.   I'd even re-home the bio-media.   Allow your tank to balance properly on its own and see if they are needed at all....seems likely the answer is "no".

 

Taking this all into account...

 

Between the increased feedings, and improved access to dissolved nutrients that both come with improved, stronger flow and taking down the refugium to take pressure off of dissolved nutrient levels, you should see the display become more stable and corals get happier.  At the same time, it should becomes a bit simpler for you to manage.  👍

 

 

[Kindanewtothis]

2 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Oh no....for a coral tank, that is almost no flow at all.  I will be a little surprised if it's even enough after you add the 5.....120 is a lot of gallons to flow!

A nero 3 and nero 5 equal 5000gph, that's over 40 times the water volume without compting the rocks in the tank and the return pump gph. Seems enough plus it will be from more than one source.

 

2 hours ago, mcarroll said:

would shut that chamber down completely.

I intend to raise the bioload over time but I have started to feed more. 

[Kindanewtothis]

5 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Why is there a Cheato farm attached to your reef??!!   (I kid.  But seriously too!)

It's only 7 by 18 😅 

 

Also I'm heavily dosing phyto to feed and maintain the pods population. Pods and phyto were a good help in the dino fight. 

 

Does phyto raise or lower nutrients? I've read both so I don't know anymore.

 

Some say it feeds the coral or that it feeds rhe pods that then feeds the corals.

 

 

[seabass]

3 hours ago, Kindanewtothis said:

Does phyto raise or lower nutrients? I've read both so I don't know anymore.

 

Some say it feeds the coral or that it feeds rhe pods that then feeds the corals.

My best guess is that dosing live phytoplankton temporarily raises nutrient levels (as it is dosed with the water that it was being cultivated in).  However, this addition of nutrients might be short-lived, as the live phyto will continue to utilize nutrients within your tank.

 

I believe that some coral might be able to directly consume phyto from the water, but that most do not.  Although, like you said, pods (and some filter feeders) will consume the phyto, and the stony corals will feed on the pods.

 

However, dosing live phyto and running UV seems to be in conflict with each other, as UV is intended to kill phyto.  Although, the live phyto would still be temporarily available, and the pods will probably still eat the dead phyto.  Finally, the dead phyto that is uneaten, will release its nutrients as it is broken down.

[seabass]

3 hours ago, Kindanewtothis said:

It's only 7 by 18

Still, I wouldn't discount its ability to uptake nutrients.  The value of this fuge will depend on your need to export or dose nutrients.  You might choose to discontinue it if dosing nutrients is regularly required.

[Kindanewtothis]

8 hours ago, seabass said:

Although, the live phyto would still be temporarily available, and the pods will probably still eat the dead phyto. 

That's the way I saw it plus I dose in the display and the UV (not working for now) is in the sump. I can see the phyto going down in the water column and on the rocks so it's not all lost. I have tons of phyto so I dose about 200ml every night.

[DevilDuck]

Are you concerned that the UV will kill a chunk of the pod population?

[Kindanewtothis]

7 hours ago, DevilDuck said:

Are you concerned that the UV will kill a chunk of the pod population?

Not much, I've been using this UV in my 50g here and there and still have a lot of pods. The way I see it and from what my pods culture showed me is that there aren't that much in the water column but mostly on walls, sand and rocks so I don't think the UV is a big problem for pods.

[Chibils]

23 hours ago, Kindanewtothis said:

A nero 3 and nero 5 equal 5000gph, that's over 40 times the water volume without compting the rocks in the tank and the return pump gph. Seems enough plus it will be from more than one source.

I know it seems like a lot of flow, but you have to consider that corals don't have lungs. Respiration happens through the surface tissues. It's like having your lungs inverted on your skin, and then hoping enough of a breeze blows for you to breathe!

 

And as mcarroll stated, when flow is low enough that most particles will fall out of suspension, it creates a lot of detritus issues... Ask me how I know... 

[Kindanewtothis]

55 minutes ago, Chibils said:

I know it seems like a lot of flow, but you have to consider that corals don't have lungs. Respiration happens through the surface tissues. It's like having your lungs inverted on your skin, and then hoping enough of a breeze blows for you to breathe!

 

And as mcarroll stated, when flow is low enough that most particles will fall out of suspension, it creates a lot of detritus issues... Ask me how I know... 

And how many times the water volume do you suggest? Because I have about 100 gallons of water (120g - 60 pounds of rocks and sand) with 5000gph it would be 50 times the water volume and that is still without the return pump.

[Kindanewtothis]

Found elsewhere sorry:

 

You will often hear the term turnover rate being used when determining water flow in your tank. This is basically a number given to the number of times your main water volume will be cycled or turned over in your tank. A general rule of thumb to aim for is a 20-30x turnover rate for the water volume in your tank. For example, if you have a 100-gallon reef aquarium with LPS corals, aim to have your water turnover at least 2000-3000GPH. If you are keeping SPS corals, you may need to increase this number.

[mcarroll]

On 11/14/2022 at 6:16 PM, Kindanewtothis said:

A nero 3 and nero 5 equal 5000gph, that's over 40 times the water volume without compting the rocks in the tank and the return pump gph. Seems enough plus it will be from more than one source.

With flow it has become harder and harder IMO to just go by the numbers.   (And they were only numbers to begin with, even when they meant more.)

 

More on this below...

 

On 11/14/2022 at 6:16 PM, Kindanewtothis said:

I intend to raise the bioload over time but I have started to feed more. 

IF that ends up happening, then you can re-activate the refugium.

 

For now, it's complicating things and actually having a negative impact.

 

You're literally working against yourself in a few areas here!

 

23 hours ago, Kindanewtothis said:

It's only 7 by 18 😅 

 

Also I'm heavily dosing phyto to feed and maintain the pods population. Pods and phyto were a good help in the dino fight. 

 

Does phyto raise or lower nutrients? I've read both so I don't know anymore.

 

Some say it feeds the coral or that it feeds rhe pods that then feeds the corals.

That's circular, IMO.   You can always reactivate the refugium at any time.

 

2 hours ago, Kindanewtothis said:

And how many times the water volume do you suggest? Because I have about 100 gallons of water (120g - 60 pounds of rocks and sand) with 5000gph it would be 50 times the water volume and that is still without the return pump.

I'll take you through my history with flow and SPS...in a nutshell:

 

Tank version 1

2,200 GPH from two Tunze 6045 power heads.  Around 250 GPH from return flow.  (Return flow like this is insignificant.   We'll just discount it from the numbers starting now.)

 

It was a 38 gallon tank, so 2200/38 would suggest almost 60X turnover.

 

This flow was great.  

 

The tank grew FULL of SPS....lots of Monti's and Birdsnets, among others.   I mean full right out through the water surface.....so full I had to do something about adding more flow.  There was SO LITTLE free space left in the tank that water flow seemed like it was half of what it was when the flow setup was new.

 

I had a chance to get a pair of MP40's for cheap, and I figured they'd be a MASSIVE upgrade for flow.   Two of them, at the time, would have totaled something like 6,000 GPH or 158X.   (Vs the 2,200 I had already...if you recall)

 

What I found was confusing....no matter where I set up the pumps, the flow in the tank was no better, or worse, than with the 2,200 GPH that it replaced.

 

I ended up selling the MP40's and then adding a third Tunze 6045 @ 1,100 GPH.

 

That brought the total flow from all three pumps (twofold, one new) to 3,300 GPH.....or 87X turnover.

 

This was enough to restore strong flow to the tank for the remainder of its years.  (About 11 years before it got transferred to the 125 Gallon I have now.)

 

The Bottom Line

At least as far as "turnover" numbers go, is that the number is going to depend HEAVILY on what you're using to move water.

 

Pumps like the Nero and MP40 are very low-velocity in the GPH they delivery – which translates to very little work being done, and very little "reach" into the tank.  An mp40 is really only useful to about 24" at most....and flow is probably ideal to about 12".  (This is perfect for some tanks.)

 

Tunze makes all kinds of pumps, but the ones shaped like the 6045 are higher velocity....so every GPH delivered does more work in the tank, such as moving detritus.

 

(Tunze made a great, if nerdy, video that explains these aspects of flow with a really nice demonstration.)

 

2 hours ago, Kindanewtothis said:

Found elsewhere sorry:

 

You will often hear the term turnover rate being used when determining water flow in your tank. This is basically a number given to the number of times your main water volume will be cycled or turned over in your tank. A general rule of thumb to aim for is a 20-30x turnover rate for the water volume in your tank. For example, if you have a 100-gallon reef aquarium with LPS corals, aim to have your water turnover at least 2000-3000GPH. If you are keeping SPS corals, you may need to increase this number.

I would hazard to say that "20-30X" number has crossed space and time from the 1980's, when closed-loops were de reguerre.  A good example of why turnover is a sketchy concept to use.

 

The flow stream in those old setups tended to be very high velocity (and low GPH), to the point of being problematic in coral tanks.  Hence the innovation of outfitting powerheads with propellors and moving the pump into the tank.  (In my recollection, Tunze was the first to do this.  👍)

 

My current tank, the 125 Gallon mentioned before, has two Tunze 6105's and two 6095's.   In total, that adds up to almost 12,000 GPH / 125 Gallons...or about 96X.   (FYI, the 6105 is high-velocity; the 6095 is medium-low velocity.)

 

Unfortunately, what this means is that turnover rates aren't that useful unless we're all talking about the same tank and same brand of pump.

 

FORTUNATELY, it's always possible to gauge for yourself whether flow in the tank is adequate or not just by observing how things go in the tank.  Does food tend to rapidly settle from the water column during feeding?   Ditto for when you notice the fish poop – does it fall rapidly to the bottom?  Does detritus tend to collect on or around your rocks or other areas in the display?   It depends on the sand you have, but if it's a nice random mix, I like to be able to see a small grain of sand get moved every once in a while.....if flow can't do that, is it gonna move a huge hunk of poop? 😉 

 

FYI, flow is a REALLY interesting topic once you scratch the surface of it...check out the Flow section of my blog to see related articles.

[Kindanewtothis]

45 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

With flow it has become harder and harder IMO to just go by the numbers.   (And they were only numbers to begin with, even when they meant more.)

 

More on this below...

 

IF that ends up happening, then you can re-activate the refugium.

 

For now, it's complicating things and actually having a negative impact.

 

You're literally working against yourself in a few areas here!

 

That's circular, IMO.   You can always reactivate the refugium at any time.

 

I'll take you through my history with flow and SPS...in a nutshell:

 

Tank version 1

2,200 GPH from two Tunze 6045 power heads.  Around 250 GPH from return flow.  (Return flow like this is insignificant.   We'll just discount it from the numbers starting now.)

 

It was a 38 gallon tank, so 2200/38 would suggest almost 60X turnover.

 

This flow was great.  

 

The tank grew FULL of SPS....lots of Monti's and Birdsnets, among others.   I mean full right out through the water surface.....so full I had to do something about adding more flow.  There was SO LITTLE free space left in the tank that water flow seemed like it was half of what it was when the flow setup was new.

 

I had a chance to get a pair of MP40's for cheap, and I figured they'd be a MASSIVE upgrade for flow.   Two of them, at the time, would have totaled something like 6,000 GPH or 158X.   (Vs the 2,200 I had already...if you recall)

 

What I found was confusing....no matter where I set up the pumps, the flow in the tank was no better, or worse, than with the 2,200 GPH that it replaced.

 

I ended up selling the MP40's and then adding a third Tunze 6045 @ 1,100 GPH.

 

That brought the total flow from all three pumps (twofold, one new) to 3,300 GPH.....or 87X turnover.

 

This was enough to restore strong flow to the tank for the remainder of its years.  (About 11 years before it got transferred to the 125 Gallon I have now.)

 

The Bottom Line

At least as far as "turnover" numbers go, is that the number is going to depend HEAVILY on what you're using to move water.

 

Pumps like the Nero and MP40 are very low-velocity in the GPH they delivery – which translates to very little work being done, and very little "reach" into the tank.  An mp40 is really only useful to about 24" at most....and flow is probably ideal to about 12".  (This is perfect for some tanks.)

 

Tunze makes all kinds of pumps, but the ones shaped like the 6045 are higher velocity....so every GPH delivered does more work in the tank, such as moving detritus.

 

(Tunze made a great, if nerdy, video that explains these aspects of flow with a really nice demonstration.)

 

I would hazard to say that "20-30X" number has crossed space and time from the 1980's, when closed-loops were de reguerre.  A good example of why turnover is a sketchy concept to use.

 

The flow stream in those old setups tended to be very high velocity (and low GPH), to the point of being problematic in coral tanks.  Hence the innovation of outfitting powerheads with propellors and moving the pump into the tank.  (In my recollection, Tunze was the first to do this.  👍)

 

My current tank, the 125 Gallon mentioned before, has two Tunze 6105's and two 6095's.   In total, that adds up to almost 12,000 GPH / 125 Gallons...or about 96X.   (FYI, the 6105 is high-velocity; the 6095 is medium-low velocity.)

 

Unfortunately, what this means is that turnover rates aren't that useful unless we're all talking about the same tank and same brand of pump.

 

FORTUNATELY, it's always possible to gauge for yourself whether flow in the tank is adequate or not just by observing how things go in the tank.  Does food tend to rapidly settle from the water column during feeding?   Ditto for when you notice the fish poop – does it fall rapidly to the bottom?  Does detritus tend to collect on or around your rocks or other areas in the display?   It depends on the sand you have, but if it's a nice random mix, I like to be able to see a small grain of sand get moved every once in a while.....if flow can't do that, is it gonna move a huge hunk of poop? 😉 

 

FYI, flow is a REALLY interesting topic once you scratch the surface of it...check out the Flow section of my blog to see related articles.

First, thank you for your time. I will look at the video and at your blog.

 

Also, and I understand that it was just your exemple, but I don't plan on keeping SPS, at all. Euphyllias and zoas mostly.

 

I'll keep testing and see how it goes. Small monitored changes before I decide if I take the fuge out.

 

Still need to get a nemguard for the nero 5 so for now there isn't enough flow for sure.

[mcarroll]

7 hours ago, Kindanewtothis said:

Also, and I understand that it was just your exemple, but I don't plan on keeping SPS, at all. Euphyllias and zoas mostly.

Corals all have generally similar flow requirements due to the "boundary layer" effect.  (Google "coral boundary layer" if you're in a hurry....otherwise that term will come up in the flow section on my blog if you go there.). In a nutshell, flow is what controls coral respiration, feeding and elimination.  So...less is bad...more is good. 😉 

 

"SPS" and "LPS" aren't very useful made-up terms for this purpose (or much of any other), so kinda-my-bad for even going there with the terminology. 😉   The last "S" is the only useful part of those terms...."stony", as in these corals require dosing becuase they take calcium and carbonates out of the water as they grow.  The other two letters are only there for aesthetics.

 

The useful thing to know about MY corals in that story is that they were branching and plating types, such as your Euphillia, which all grow out into the water.  (As opposed to encrusting types, such as your zoas, which grow along the substrate, taking on whatever shape that substrate has.)

 

By growing out into the water, my corals were reducing the energy of the flow around them.  Fast forward a couple years into the future of the tank and the effect adds up to reduced overall flow, "heavy detritus", and less-happy corals.

[Kindanewtothis]

11 hours ago, mcarroll said:

it...check out the Flow section of my blog to see related articles.

When I see your comments, or blog or infos received from you or @seabass and others I sometimes wonder what you guys do for a living or studied.

 

My background is in finance and accounting and I work in law enforcement.... so water chemistry is "kinda" a new world (of interest) for me but it's far from my field😅

[seabass]

I have no pertinent school or work background in this (IT).  I've always been kind of a science nerd, but didn't even take high school chemistry (loved physics though).  Most of what I've learned has been directly related to this hobby.  But just think about how much you've learned in the last year and a half.  Keep reading and learning, and you can imagine how much you'll know in another decade or two.

[Kindanewtothis]

9 minutes ago, seabass said:

But just think about how much you've learned in the last year and a half. 

A lot!!!

 

There I was thinking I was going to be ok with my 30g in April 2021 because I had a 90g (FOWLR) some 15 years ago...

[Kindanewtothis]

Di cartridge question:

 

I received my Di sillicate blaster cartridge but it's not the same type. 

 

Is there something to do to be able to connect it to my RO?

 

 

[Kindanewtothis]

https://aquariumdepot.ca/products/aquafx-single-chamber-reactor-1-4-tubing

 

Is this what I need?

[DevilDuck]

The cartridge is a 10" full size one. The aquarium depot reactor will work, you can probably go down to your local hardware store and find something similar in the water filter section for less.

 

You'll need to route it after the RO Buddie sediment and carbon filters.

[Kindanewtothis]

12 minutes ago, DevilDuck said:

The cartridge is a 10" full size one. The aquarium depot reactor will work, you can probably go down to your local hardware store and find something similar in the water filter section for less.

 

You'll need to route it after the RO Buddie sediment and carbon filters.

Geekpure Filter Housing for RO System (Clear Color) - Fit for 2.5" x 10" Filters - 1/4" Thread Inlet/Outlet https://a.co/d/3zkc1sv

 

??

[DevilDuck]

11 minutes ago, Kindanewtothis said:

Geekpure Filter Housing for RO System (Clear Color) - Fit for 2.5" x 10" Filters - 1/4" Thread Inlet/Outlet https://a.co/d/3zkc1sv

 

??

Yes, that should work also. If you are going to be making a lot of water and have the space, you might want to replace the RO Buddie Sediment and Carbon filters with 10" filters also. The larger ones last longer and are cheaper in the long run.