Kinda's Large Tank Adventure (LTA)

[Kindanewtothis]

On 11/28/2022 at 8:31 PM, Kindanewtothis said:

While I talk about the kenya tree, it has branch changing colors sometimes. Also one was floating and went in the rocks. Am I right to think that it is just propagation? 

Got a second Kenya tree! It's growing next to a zoa colony.

[Kindanewtothis]

On 12/1/2022 at 5:00 PM, Kindanewtothis said:

Got a second Kenya tree! It's growing next to a zoa colony.

Found another one, so 3 for the moment. I'm starting to understand why some consider them as pest (I'm not)

[Kindanewtothis]

@seabass I just realised, re-reading your article on phyto culture, that I've been overdosing fertilizer all this time (1.5ml by liter and not 1.5ml by two-liters)

 

Should I reduce the fertilizer dosing? What would be the impacts?

[seabass]

You could certainly stay with what's working.  Or you might try reducing the fertilizer (mostly to save money).  IDK, less fertilizer might slow production a bit; it might also result in less nutrients in the culture that you are feeding your tank.  However, on the other hand, it might not make much of a difference.

 

Maybe try it out and see how it goes.  I doubt that you'll lose your culture.  Let me know how it goes if you change the amount of fertilizer used.

[Kindanewtothis]

The anemone is in the back...I can't see it or the clowns.... 

 

How am I supposed to feed it 2 times a week?

[seabass]

That's frustrating.  I'm guessing the new powerhead enticed it to move.  And now your nem is happy and chillaxing in the back.

 

I don't know if there is much you can do about it.  You might try redirecting the flow to try to get it to move again.   But ultimately, it will decide where it wants to be.

[Kindanewtothis]

48 minutes ago, seabass said:

That's frustrating.  I'm guessing the new powerhead enticed it to move.  And now your nem is happy and chillaxing in the back.

 

I don't know if there is much you can do about it.  You might try redirecting the flow to try to get it to move again.   But ultimately, it will decide where it wants to be.

I know people sometimes directly aim powerhead at the anemone so it moves again. I might try that.

[seabass]

2 hours ago, Kindanewtothis said:

I know people sometimes directly aim powerhead at the anemone so it moves again. I might try that.

Nothing too powerful; you'd want to irritate it slightly, not hurt it.

[Kindanewtothis]

7 hours ago, seabass said:

Nothing too powerful; you'd want to irritate it slightly, not hurt it.

What I'm planning to use is my aquaclear 50

Link as reference: https://a.co/d/0L67Mpc

 

Cannot use my hand even if I wanted, the clowns now bite if I approch the anemone 😅

 

I will not try to make it move again right now because I'm going to Mexico in 2 days and won't be there to monitor it. Will try it when I'll be back if it's still in the back of the tank.

 

 

 

 

[mcarroll]

14 hours ago, Kindanewtothis said:

The anemone is in the back...I can't see it or the clowns.... 

 

How am I supposed to feed it 2 times a week?

Anemones only need to be fed like that if they are in an otherwise deprived environment where food is their primary form of sustenance.  My guess is that this is rare in the wild...essentially a non-photosynthetic anemone?  ☃

 

Some folks consider that rate of feeding excessive or even stressful to the anemone in some cases.

 

Anemones can live like every other polyp in your tank if you allow it – photosynthetically!!   🙂 

 

This is especially true if the anemone is hosting clownfish* – practically everything you feed the fish will end up on (and then in) the anemone...eventually.  💩  Anemones without fish guests are way more dependent (on dissolved nutrients; like your other corals) than anemones with fish.

 

They're probably also better at gathering particles of food from the water than you think as well....so at least some of what you broadcast feed (to fish, et al) will be absorbed by the anemone too.  (Not good enough at it to give up their photosynthesis though!)

 

*The clownfish doesn't host the anemone...tho it gets said that way most of the time.   In biology, a host is a larger critter that harbors a smaller critter.  If it was a party 🎉, anemone=party host; fish=party guest!  😄  (Nobody asked...just saying.)

 

See you when you get back!

[seabass]

It's certainly true that over feeding can be a problem.  And that these anemones are photosynthetic, and that the clownfish poo will feed the anemone, and that some stray fish food will help subsidize its diet.

 

However, I believe that Kindanewtothis actually lost his first anemone by not feeding it enough, and he has subsequently worked out its feeding requirements.  Of course, what and how much is fed at each feeding can be more telling than the number of times it is fed.  But if I'm not mistaken, the meals are kept relatively small and easy to digest.

[Kindanewtothis]

5 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Anemones only need to be fed like that if they are in an otherwise deprived environment where food is their primary form of sustenance.  My guess is that this is rare in the wild...essentially a non-photosynthetic anemone?  ☃

 

Some folks consider that rate of feeding excessive or even stressful to the anemone in some cases.

 

Anemones can live like every other polyp in your tank if you allow it – photosynthetically!!   🙂 

 

This is especially true if the anemone is hosting clownfish* – practically everything you feed the fish will end up on (and then in) the anemone...eventually.  💩  Anemones without fish guests are way more dependent (on dissolved nutrients; like your other corals) than anemones with fish.

 

They're probably also better at gathering particles of food from the water than you think as well....so at least some of what you broadcast feed (to fish, et al) will be absorbed by the anemone too.  (Not good enough at it to give up their photosynthesis though!)

 

*The clownfish doesn't host the anemone...tho it gets said that way most of the time.   In biology, a host is a larger critter that harbors a smaller critter.  If it was a party 🎉, anemone=party host; fish=party guest!  😄  (Nobody asked...just saying.)

 

See you when you get back!

 

3 hours ago, seabass said:

It's certainly true that over feeding can be a problem.  And that these anemones are photosynthetic, and that the clownfish poo will feed the anemone, and that some stray fish food will help subsidize its diet.

 

However, I believe that Kindanewtothis actually lost his first anemone by not feeding it enough, and he has subsequently worked out its feeding requirements.  Of course, what and how much is fed at each feeding can be more telling than the number of times it is fed.  But if I'm not mistaken, the meals are kept relatively small and easy to digest.

 I did lost the first one due to not enough feeding. The second one, that was in great shape and growing, was fed 2 times a week (mysis and jumbo mysis). Feeding the new one is the reason it's not all white anymore I figure. 

[mcarroll]

22 hours ago, Kindanewtothis said:

I did lost the first one due to not enough feeding.

Just out of my own curiosity, was that in this thread if I read far enough back?

 

[seabass]

2 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Just out of my own curiosity, was that in this thread if I read far enough back?

 

Back on page 81.

[Kindanewtothis]

On 9/28/2021 at 6:35 AM, Kindanewtothis said:

RIP anemone.

 

It went in the nero 3. Stayed mostly stock in the fish guard... there was no coming back from it.

@seabass you are faster than me! How did you find it so fast?

 

To resume, the anemone was moving a lot, was underfed, went through dinos and then a Nero 3...

[seabass]

16 minutes ago, Kindanewtothis said:

How did you find it so fast?

I used search this topic for "die".  Then just scrolled back to where I felt we started talking about it.

 

 

18 minutes ago, Kindanewtothis said:

went through dinos

Yeah, that's not an insignificant event.  I assume that it lost some mass before then; but dinos very well could have tipped the scales and made it wonder.  It's always hard to definitively point to just one factor.  But I think we can state that insufficient feeding was causing a loss in mass.  Although it might have recovered if it hadn't gotten cut up by the powerhead.

[Kindanewtothis]

42 minutes ago, seabass said:

I used search this topic for "die".  Then just scrolled back to where I felt we started talking about it.

You build rockets or something? I went through 80 pages...

 

This first anemone was also always moving and I was messing with it trying to place it exactly were I wanted...

[mcarroll]

I have actually been reading from the beginning where the anemones went in and got up to page 86 or so, post-Nero.

 

IMO the anemone was never happy since it moved regularly from what seemed almost like Day 1.

 

Once dino's hit, the anemone really seemed to take a whammy from it.  Unfortunately no ID was done and as a result action was slow and not very deliberate.   My Dino mega thread may have been some help, but it's VERY targeted to the more typical presentation of dino's:  New tank.  Dead rock.  Zero nutrients.  Over-filtered.  Over-lit.  Over-stocked.  Usually it has to be at least 2+ of those in combination.  Cases like yours don't check many of the boxes....and they don't really come up very often.  (Look through those 500+ pages and there are only a tiny handful of cases like yours.)

 

Anyway...

 

It was already precarious for the anemone in a number of ways.  With that pattern having been in place so long, once the Nero went in...it wasn't going to go well.

 

As far as feeding, I didn't see a correlation in the posts between any lack of feeding and the size loss that occurred.  

 

As mentioned already, size loss looked very correlated with the dino bloom to me.  

 

And feeding levels on the anemone were affirmed at least a few times along the way as being adequate.

 

To me, the most significant clues are:

1. By moving around so much, the anemone was telling us from almost Day 1 that something was wrong with the tank – which is to say, something was not to his liking.
2. The eventual occurance of the dino bloom IN SPITE of the use of live rock and positive levels of PO4 and NO3 in water tests.

These clues make me think of a few things...some of which haven't really come up that I saw.  All of them have a little bit of contribution to the problems with this tank:

 

The canister filter.  It's nearly impossible to maintain these to a reef standard of cleanliness.  This is why we tend to use filter socks and the like instead – or even better, use nothing at all.  I'm not sure what you're using the canister for, but IMO take it off line – the sooner the better.  If you feel like you must keep it, I would run it empty and use it only for flow/extra water volume.  You should only run carbon as-needed, BTW.  I got the impression that you've been running it 24/7/365.

 

Sub-par flow in the tank.  The effect flow has on polyps is often underestimated and hard to over-estimate.  Every hardship a polyp can have is magnified under poor flow conditions.  The flow situation was only rectified (hypothetically) toward the end of the anemone's course of events...in the final chapter, if you will.  It might be a good idea to post a video or two showing how your flow is now just so we have an idea.  There are other ways (be creative) but one way to show flow is to add a bunch of flake food after the movie is rolling. Adding some near each pump would show the most....if maybe a little hard to pull off without help.

 

Light.  Some readings from a lux meter app aren't the most accurate, but would give us some data.  The tank went through some MAJOR changes at the beginning....one of which was lighting.  Overkill on lighting is fairly common...so this is worth a review.  In the long run, a handheld lux meter makes a GREAT compliment to your microscope.

 

Old live rock.  I think this tank inherited a case of Old Tank Syndrome.  At least you didn't start with dead dry rock.  But I suspect it was mostly-dead live rock...maybe infested with dino's and not much else, as far as you know.  The picture of the restaurant tank full of live rock kinda stood out to me....seems like it was WAY TOO MUCH and WAY TOO NAKED to be actual healthy live rock....even if it was that 15 years ago.  (Pics from then!!!)  For dino's to appear in a tank with plentiful nutrients, there has to be some other factor....I think this is it.

 

Skimmer too small.  The 9001 is only rated up to 37 gallons in a lightly stocked scenario.  It's more geared to something like 20 gallons at typical stocking levels.  Consider upgrading to the 9004, rated up to 65 gallons lightly stocked or around 40 gallons typical.  9004 DC would be an even better fit, size-wise....and easier to dial in to a nice self-cleaning wet skim.  With this dialed in properly, you have all the filtration you'd need.

 

Let me know if I missed any of these things earlier in the thread.....I read a lot, but also skimmed over a lot.  (And it's been a long day.)

[Kindanewtothis]

6 hours ago, mcarroll said:

I have actually been reading from the beginning where the anemones went in and got up to page 86 or so, post-Nero.

 

IMO the anemone was never happy since it moved regularly from what seemed almost like Day 1.

 

Once dino's hit, the anemone really seemed to take a whammy from it.  Unfortunately no ID was done and as a result action was slow and not very deliberate.   My Dino mega thread may have been some help, but it's VERY targeted to the more typical presentation of dino's:  New tank.  Dead rock.  Zero nutrients.  Over-filtered.  Over-lit.  Over-stocked.  Usually it has to be at least 2+ of those in combination.  Cases like yours don't check many of the boxes....and they don't really come up very often.  (Look through those 500+ pages and there are only a tiny handful of cases like yours.)

 

Anyway...

 

It was already precarious for the anemone in a number of ways.  With that pattern having been in place so long, once the Nero went in...it wasn't going to go well.

 

As far as feeding, I didn't see a correlation in the posts between any lack of feeding and the size loss that occurred.  

 

As mentioned already, size loss looked very correlated with the dino bloom to me.  

 

And feeding levels on the anemone were affirmed at least a few times along the way as being adequate.

 

To me, the most significant clues are:

1. By moving around so much, the anemone was telling us from almost Day 1 that something was wrong with the tank – which is to say, something was not to his liking.
2. The eventual occurance of the dino bloom IN SPITE of the use of live rock and positive levels of PO4 and NO3 in water tests.

These clues make me think of a few things...some of which haven't really come up that I saw.  All of them have a little bit of contribution to the problems with this tank:

 

The canister filter.  It's nearly impossible to maintain these to a reef standard of cleanliness.  This is why we tend to use filter socks and the like instead – or even better, use nothing at all.  I'm not sure what you're using the canister for, but IMO take it off line – the sooner the better.  If you feel like you must keep it, I would run it empty and use it only for flow/extra water volume.  You should only run carbon as-needed, BTW.  I got the impression that you've been running it 24/7/365.

 

Sub-par flow in the tank.  The effect flow has on polyps is often underestimated and hard to over-estimate.  Every hardship a polyp can have is magnified under poor flow conditions.  The flow situation was only rectified (hypothetically) toward the end of the anemone's course of events...in the final chapter, if you will.  It might be a good idea to post a video or two showing how your flow is now just so we have an idea.  There are other ways (be creative) but one way to show flow is to add a bunch of flake food after the movie is rolling. Adding some near each pump would show the most....if maybe a little hard to pull off without help.

 

Light.  Some readings from a lux meter app aren't the most accurate, but would give us some data.  The tank went through some MAJOR changes at the beginning....one of which was lighting.  Overkill on lighting is fairly common...so this is worth a review.  In the long run, a handheld lux meter makes a GREAT compliment to your microscope.

 

Old live rock.  I think this tank inherited a case of Old Tank Syndrome.  At least you didn't start with dead dry rock.  But I suspect it was mostly-dead live rock...maybe infested with dino's and not much else, as far as you know.  The picture of the restaurant tank full of live rock kinda stood out to me....seems like it was WAY TOO MUCH and WAY TOO NAKED to be actual healthy live rock....even if it was that 15 years ago.  (Pics from then!!!)  For dino's to appear in a tank with plentiful nutrients, there has to be some other factor....I think this is it.

 

Skimmer too small.  The 9001 is only rated up to 37 gallons in a lightly stocked scenario.  It's more geared to something like 20 gallons at typical stocking levels.  Consider upgrading to the 9004, rated up to 65 gallons lightly stocked or around 40 gallons typical.  9004 DC would be an even better fit, size-wise....and easier to dial in to a nice self-cleaning wet skim.  With this dialed in properly, you have all the filtration you'd need.

 

Let me know if I missed any of these things earlier in the thread.....I read a lot, but also skimmed over a lot.  (And it's been a long day.)

Thanks for all this and yes the problems with the 1st anemone were indeed multiples.

 

However, regarding the rest of your comment they would apply to my 1st 30 gallons that was upgraded to a 50 gallons. Those two tanks were running with the tunze 9001 and the canister. 

 

I now have a 120 gallons with a sump and proper skimmer. You actually asked me for pictures of all this 😉

[Kindanewtothis]

On 11/14/2022 at 10:41 AM, Kindanewtothis said:

 

Full tank shot, 120g seapora dual overflow

 

Flow is just a Nero 3 (plus the dual returns). There was a Sicce Xstream3500 but it's gone since the anemone incident... Waiting for my nemguard for my new Nero 5 that will take the place of the Nero 3 on the left wall and the Nero 3 will go on the back wall about where the yellow tang is on the top picture.

 

Lighting is 2 Aquaillumination hydra 32hd. I use Saxby preset 

 

 

One of the overflow

 

The sump now, the right drain pipe cannot really move and I was stupid to put a valve there so it's even less flexible. I'm not using a filter sock on this one. The left drain is perfectly flexible and easy to move for maintenance.

 

Second chamber hold the skimmer (Simplicity 120DC), the heater (eheim jager 200w) and my Green killing machine 24w not currently working because the replacement bulb I got is now working... I would like a regular plumpled UV designed for a sump.

 

Next chamber is the refugium holds cheato and caulerpa and 2kg of ceramic bio media. The lighting there is total crap from amazon and I might get a AI prime fuge light someday but a less expensive option would be ok.

 

The last chamber is for the return pump (eflux DC flow pump 3000gph). I use sponges between the refugium and the return pump chamber.

 

[mcarroll]

This was all just me wondering about the fate of that anemone more than anything else.  So I was doing a (pointless?) retrospective on "what happened" at last according to my read-through.

 

But since you brought it up the continuity thing... 😉

 

There are like three or four (or more!) journal's worth of tanks documented here....none of them have a particularly straightforward story – there's a lot going on all the way though from what I can see.  It's pretty confusing to read as you jump back and forth between updates on different tanks.

 

For better clarity you might consider breaking up the content somehow into separate threads going forward.  One for each tank, or whatever separation makes sense.  (Just a thought.)

[mcarroll]

9 minutes ago, Kindanewtothis said:

my Green killing machine 24w not currently working because the replacement bulb I got is now working... I would like a regular plumpled UV designed for a sump.

Last thought....sump installs are OK for holding down algae a little bit, but IMO you wan the thing running in the display tank if that's where the target organism is.  This will bring the maximum effect.

 

If you plumb into a sump, then you would want 100% of the sump flow going through it – no "bypass".

 

If dino and fish-pest slaying are your goals (vs green algae), then you want a high-dosage/low flow setup for the UV, which implies using a very large UV unit compared to what you'd need in-tank.....big enough to keep up with your return pump AND keep the dosage rate high.

 

So it's possible to plumb it in, but to get the same effect it will take a lot more watts/bigger unit.  (For reference, see AquaUV's sizing guidelines for targeting parasites.)

[Kindanewtothis]

So how bad of an idea is it to take rocks from the gulf of Mexico (wet), bring it back to Canada and put it in the 10g to see what comes out of it? 

[mcarroll]

14 hours ago, Kindanewtothis said:

So how bad of an idea is it to take rocks from the gulf of Mexico (wet), bring it back to Canada and put it in the 10g to see what comes out of it? 

Like in your luggage?

 

Sounds like a customs issue....though you might never get the smell out of your clothes. 😉 

[seabass]

I’m pretty sure you’re not allowed to collect rock from the ocean in the Gulf without permits and licenses.  That said there are a couple of places which sell Gulf rock (KP Aquatics comes to mind) or even live sand from the Gulf (like Gulf Live Rock).  Those would be good to grow out in a quarantine tank before adding them to a display.

 

But like Matt mentioned, I doubt they could ship to Canada.   Anybody here from Canada that knows a source?  You might want to ask a couple of your local shops to see if they can get anything for you.

 

Otherwise, buying some cheap coral frag collected from the ocean could be quarantined before adding it to your display.  We used to do this before dipping everything (to get rid of pests, as well as beneficial life). We also used to use rock from the ocean to start with.  No wonder dinos weren’t a problem back then.