Kinda's Large Tank Adventure (LTA)

[Kindanewtothis]

Just now, seabass said:

OMG!  That's so strange.  Hard to say what went wrong: collection technique, some type of organ failure, just plain stress, disease, parasite, or combination of things.

 

I'm really sorry to hear this.  But glad that you didn't lose all of your fish.  I guess it's why we quarantine.

So your theory is a problem with the fish and not with the quarantine?

[seabass]

That's my first (maybe best) guess.

[Kindanewtothis]

Do I need to empty it or could I quarantine another fish in it since it would be coming from the same LFS and same system?

[Kindanewtothis]

5 minutes ago, seabass said:

That's my first (maybe best) guess.

When I think about it, they had 2 flames, one (mine) looked healthy, the other one not ao much... I wonder if it died too.

[seabass]

18 minutes ago, Kindanewtothis said:

Do I need to empty it or could I quarantine another fish in it since it would be coming from the same LFS and same system?

If it had a parasite, it would still be in the tank.  I'd be tempted to clean it all out before trying again.  And since a replacement fish is likely coming from the same place, I might consider pre-treating the new fish:

From Humblefish: https://humble.fish/community/index.php?threads/quarantine.2/

Quote

 

My personal QT regimen is a lot more aggressive, as I have first-hand knowledge of just how polluted the supply chain is with disease. Therefore, below are two options you can employ to closely mirror my QT protocol:

Option A - Fish is floated in the bag for 20-30 minutes (to temperature acclimate) and then released into QT with matching salinity. QT is predosed with one of the following:

1. Copper Power at 1.0 ppm, verified using the Hanna Instruments High Range Copper Colorimeter (HI702). Over the next 48 hours, slowly raise your copper level to 1.5 ppm in gradual increments. Then take another 48 hours to raise it to 2.0 ppm. And another 48 hours in order to achieve 2.5 ppm. (So 6-7 days total to raise the copper level from the initial 1.0 to full therapeutic 2.5.) You are now at a safe therapeutic copper level. Add to this metronidazole. If using 100% metronidazole powder, dose 25 mg per gallon. Otherwise follow the maximum dosing instructions for whatever product (e.g. Seachem Metroplex) you are using.
 

OR

2. Chloroquine phosphate (pharmaceutical grade) at 15 mg/L or 60 mg per gallon. This is a therapeutic Chloroquine level.

The above prophylactically treats most parasites if held at a therapeutic concentration for 30 days. Therefore, it is important to test your copper level frequently. If the level drops below therapeutic (1.5 ppm is the minimum for Copper Power) even slightly, the 30 day clock restarts after you've raised it back up. Therefore, when doing a water change dose any new water with copper or Chloroquine before it is added to the tank. After 30 days you can perform water changes and/or run carbon, Cuprisorb, poly filter, etc. to remove the medication(s).

It is now time to move on to deworming your fish. Two options for doing this: API General Cure or Prazipro. Dose once, and in 5-7 days do a 25% water change and dose again. (Or use this treatment calendar to determine when is the best time to add the second dose.) The reason for the second dose is to eradicate the “next generation” of worms before they can lay eggs of their own. Because while Prazi does kill worms, it doesn’t eliminate any eggs they might leave behind. You can technically mix General Cure or Prazipro with copper, but only General Cure can be safely combined with Chloroquine. The risk associated with combining medications is a bacterial bloom (cloudy water) which can starve oxygen out of the water. To alleviate this risk, always point a powerhead towards the surface of the water or run an air stone on high whenever mixing medications.

After 30 days in copper or Chloroquine + being dewormed, your fish should be observed in non-medicated water for at least another 2 weeks. This is to ensure the treatments you applied were successful, and also observe for less common diseases (more info below).

Option B - Everything works the same as "Option A" except the fish is transferred into another QT (or holding tank) after 2 weeks. However, the following "rules" must be strictly adhered to:

1. Only the fish gets transferred, nothing else. Meaning, do not use ANYTHING from the treatment tank to setup the holding tank.
2. DO NOT lower the copper or Chloroquine level prior to transferring.
3. The "holding tank" must be at least 10 feet away from the QT, Display Tank and all other saltwater aquariums.
4. The two week countdown does not begin until copper or Chloroquine have reached therapeutic, and have been maintained at therapeutic throughout (very important!) So, it is wise to test your copper level often.
5. Prior to transfer, the fish should not be showing any signs of ich, velvet, brook or uronema. If he does, don't do the transfer!

The above works because parasites can only stay on a fish for a maximum of 7 days, and the presence of therapeutic copper + metro or Chloroquine shields your fish from reinfection. (The additional 7 days allows for some margin of error.) Any parasites the fish was carrying will have dropped off and are left behind in the original treatment tank. (So the QT that the fish is transferred from may still be contaminated with disease for some time.) After transferring you may deworm (if you hadn't already done so in QT#1) or dose other medications as needed. I recommend observing for at least 2 weeks before transferring any fish to your display tank.

Don’t hesitate to make changes to your treatment plan as needed! For example, if you know a fish has flukes treat with Prazipro or General Cure first. Notice white stringy poo coming out of your fish? Start food soaking General Cure, using a binder such as Seachem Focus to reduce the loss of medication to the water through diffusion. Seeing signs of a bacterial infection? Treat with antibiotics straight away (you can combine most antibiotics with copper or Chloroquine.)"

 

 

Here are a bunch of other useful links from Humbefish:  https://www.humble.fish/community/index.php?information/

 

[Kindanewtothis]

4 minutes ago, seabass said:

If it had a parasite, it would still be in the tank.  I'd be tempted to clean it all out before trying again.  And since a replacement fish is likely coming from the same place, I might consider pre-treating the new fish:

From Humblefish: https://humble.fish/community/index.php?threads/quarantine.2/

 

Here are a bunch of other useful links from Humbefish:  https://www.humble.fish/community/index.php?information/

 

Taking a new fish from another LFS might not be a bad idea I guess.

[Kindanewtothis]

I went for a coral beauty. 

 

It's in a bag floating in the 120g. 

 

The way I see it, I killed that flame angel. All the other fishs from the same shipment are alive and well at the LFS. The other flame was top shape and bright (last time not so much). There is something wrong with my Qt tank.

 

Went for a coral beauty because some say they are more reef safe and for the price.

 

 

[Kindanewtothis]

Coral beauty is doing well so far.

 

The yellow tang let it know who was the boss but it doesn't seems to be more than that.

 

Some agression between the springeri and the new fish... I have to say that the coral beauty took the springeri cave... and seems to be decided to keep it.

 

Will try to take pictures tomorrow.

[Kindanewtothis]

My CB had a rough day I think.

 

It looks like someone took a bite off its tail.

 

Otherwise it looks well and eats.

[mcarroll]

On 4/10/2022 at 5:18 PM, Kindanewtothis said:

Trying to do my homeworks, what product did you choose in the BRS calculator?

In case you didn't already bump into this...forget about BRS's calculators if you want when using Seachem products:

https://www.seachem.com/calculators.php

 

On 10/31/2022 at 1:09 PM, Kindanewtothis said:

There is something wrong with my Qt tank.

Not surprising, if it turns out to be the case.   Do you have any posts that describe your QT setup?  Pics?

 

In a nutshell, it should be set up like a nice, basic fish-only fish tank...but WITH a chunk of live rock or two and WITHOUT sand/gravel substrate.

 

 

It should not be set up like a medical treatment/hospital tank.

 

Simile time:

A nice QT is like a basic, furnished apartment.  chill  😎

 

A hospital tank is like an examination room or prison cell.  stress  😖

 

Now Imagine:  

If, like your fish, you just got "home" from "one heck of a trip" do you want that home to be the former example, or the later?  🤔

 

Yeah, that's a non-choice.  😎

 

There aren't too many treatment options that DEMAND a hospital tank setup anyway.  There is usually a QT-safe (and even reef safe) alternative.  (Tank Transfer Method is one....but that's another story altogether.)

 

Also, most folks over-focus on using meds, which in the spectrum of interventions available to us, are all very harsh on the fish – some more than others.  They have their specific uses, but use should be restricted to just that.

 

Instead, try this:  Give your fish a freshwater dip when you first get them, before they go into a tank.  Outfit your QT with strong UV and micron filtration.  If you still end up with a fish parasite, it is very unlikely to get out of control or overwhelm your fish.  Then you can supplement the UV+micron filtration with targeted meds to supplement the filtration.  (Even reef-safe anti-parasitcs if you do this in your display tank.)

 

But in most cases UV+micron(+TLC) will be all your fish need.  In some cases, even just UV or micron will be plenty of protection.  But if you are ordering fish from far away places, where you aren't getting a chance to choose the animals at the time of bagging....it's probably best to take a comprehensive approach.  

 

The good thing is that a UV+micron setup for a small tank doesn't cost THAT much.   Not compared to a bunch of dead fish, anyway. 😉  Around $80 for (e.g.) the Marineland Polishing filter.  Probably around the same for a low-end-but-bigger-sized UV filter.  Smaller/weaker UV units will only help with algae, not parasites.    (Conveniently this filtration will also help to slow down algae blooms while in operation, if you're doing this on a display tank.)

 

Last, if you're buying local be patient AND picky about what you bring home.  Don't bring home a fish just because that's what you decided on before you left the house.  👍  Like you said, maybe consider another LFS next time.  If the batch of fish you are looking at aren't all good.....maybe take that as a clue and just wait until the next batch comes in, even if that means waiting.

[Kindanewtothis]

6 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Pics?

 

[Kindanewtothis]

[seabass]

Good, I see that it still has its tail.   Must have just taken a bit of a nip.  Hopefully all will work out.

[Kindanewtothis]

1 hour ago, seabass said:

Good, I see that it still has its tail.   Must have just taken a bit of a nip.  Hopefully all will work out.

It seems alright and now they all hang together. 

[mcarroll]

6 hours ago, Kindanewtothis said:

If I turn left from this view I probably see a stethoscope on the wall, eh?  😉

 

Definitely needs sprucing up – but am I mistaken in thinking I see a small chunk of live rock?  👍  A couple more like that wouldn't be too much.  Also add some fake plants for more cover/lower stress.  

 

And of course get the fish out of QT as soon as judgement allows – a shorter stay will be better than a longer stay since the tank is so small.  👍

[Kindanewtothis]

43 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

but am I mistaken in thinking I see a small chunk of live rock?

Yeah there are 2 chunk to keep the elbow in place.

 

I took the risk with the coral beauty and it went directly in the display. (Like I usually did)

[mcarroll]

Nice!

 

Keep us posted.

[Kindanewtothis]

 

 

[mcarroll]

2 hours ago, Kindanewtothis said:

 

 

Looks like things are coming along nicely!   Fish look pretty happy!

 

Tip:  Hang out in front of the tank for 10 minutes or so doing nothing/just watching before you try taking photos.   Fish will eventually chill out and act more natural vs thinking you're about to feed them or whatever their first impression is.  (Might take some practice.). This is also good just for getting some high quality viewing time vs watching the fish freak out or hide for a few min.

[Kindanewtothis]

No3 7.4

Po4 0.03

dKH 9.1 

Ca 410

Mg 1340

 

It's going well since I'm doing regular water change (15-20 gallons a week).

[seabass]

Parameters look good.  But I recommend not letting phosphate drop any lower.

[Kindanewtothis]

10 minutes ago, seabass said:

Parameter look good.  But I recommend not letting phosphate drop any lower.

I even dosed it up to 0.06-7

[seabass]

Calcium carbonate can bind phosphate.  So new rock and/or sand might be binding some of it.

 

I believe that's how some algae can survive, even when we are restricting inorganic phosphate levels in the water column.  Anyways, just make sure that it doesn't bottom out.

[mcarroll]

4 hours ago, Kindanewtothis said:

I'm doing regular water change (15-20 gallons a week).

 

2 hours ago, Kindanewtothis said:

I even dosed it up to 0.06-7

As long as you're dosing nutrients, you should either NOT do water changes because you're flushing your $ nutrients down the toilet.  👎

 

But if you have to do a water change for some reason, then dose the water change water up to your target nutrient levels before adding it to the tank.  👍

 

Everything in the tank will acquire the new equilibrium for PO4 that you're establishing, BTW.   As seabags* mentioned, even aragonite (maybe all forms of calcium carbonate, eg calcite) are attractive to it almost exactly like GFO.  

 

But more importantly, anything that was starving for PO4 will immediately absorb as much po4 as it/they are capable of.  There is even a phenomena of "luxury uptake" where things like some algae and coral will almost literally fill a spare tank.

 

Seeing po4 drops simply a sign of usage - and in a way, sign of how much pent up demand there was.

 

Keep shooting for a consistent ≥0.05 ppm and try to nail it there, at least in the short term.  Ideally you'll only need to dose for a short time before the tank will have a most stable po4 cycle on its own.  

 

Every feeding puts a BUNCH of phosphorous into the tank (one of the main objects of feeding), but if it gets filtered out or otherwise not eaten (as it has been), then it's availability to (eg) corals can still be very limited.  Dissolved phosphate levels may not reflect the amount going in via food.  

 

Assuming you have a good base of reefy microbes,algae and critters, such as you'd find on Live Rock, the more mature your tank gets (the "ugly phase" is simply a RAPID maturing/growth process that we can actually see) the more it will recycle the nutrients you put in....so you should be able to attain a balance with time rather than needing to dose dissolved nutrients.  👍

 

* I typed "seabass" but spellcheck wasn't happy with that.  "seabags" struck me as so funny that I'm leaving the spellcheck mistake for humor value.   (WTF happened to spellcheck accuracy?!  LOL)

[Kindanewtothis]

18 hours ago, mcarroll said:

As long as you're dosing nutrients, you should either NOT do water changes because you're flushing your $ nutrients down the toilet.  👎

 

But if you have to do a water change for some reason, then dose the water change water up to your target nutrient levels before adding it to the tank.  👍

When I transfered from the 50g a few weeks ago, my nitrates were over 25 but phosphate was low. Tryed and failed using NoPox. So I went back to the water change method and everything looks better. From what I understand, water changes replenish many elements that I would have to dose. I'm only doing about 10% water changes mostly by cleaning the sandbed. Then I was adding 10ml of NeoPhos but will follow your method if dosing is needed.