Kat's Ol' Max

[metrokat]

And to Kat for always leaving her mark on our Lil Nano World! Can't wait to see what else you will bring to us...

Thank you Brian, I'm just really humbled that Mr. Thiel agreed to come on the forum.

 

I'm sure Miss Kat will recommend the Red Sea Max 130d as would I.

I think it would be fun for the grashoppers to help the Master, only if he asked for it of course.

Well said Mark. Even being a part of Mr. Thiel's build will be epic!

 

Mr. Thiel, there are several All-in-one nano tanks available that are popular.

Red Sea Max (smallest is 34 gallon)

Oceanic/Coralife Bio Cube (smallest is 8 gallon)

JBJ (smallest is 12 gallons I think)

 

If you want to go even smaller there are many options like an Ecopico

 

 

Kat, I love the new video. The clam is sooo tiny and cute! Your yasha looks like it's singing. You could totally overlay some opera music with that haha.

 

It's so cool to have someone like Mr. Thiel giving advice right here on Nano-Reef!

Thanks Scooby, yeah bunny the clam is very tiny. You know what is a monster? DINGBAT!!! He's enormous.

 

You sure put a lot of work in that tank and its design and that is very laudable .. planning is and should be a major part when you begin to set up a small or medium or large tank as once everything is in it and you decide you don't like the look of it, or it just does not come across as 'appealing' and you decide that you are going to start making some changes ... you will have a lot of work to do and usually end up with a mess on the floor (unless you plan the takedown carefully as well).

 

I had to take a 400 gallon down years ago when I was doing consulting for large tanks and that aquarium had not only a very thick layer of substrate but so much rock that just to get it out and spread out I needed a 4 by 8 blue plastic sheet to lay it all out on nicely separated from each other and of course in that kind of size there were tons of fish and invertebrates that needed to go into temporary tanks (which the owner did not have so I had to go buy them).

 

If I remember well I started the rearranging job and the cleaning once the tank was empty, and making modifications to the filtration system very early in the morning (it was in Westchester NY and I lived in CT in those days so it was not too long a drive to get there), and did not finish until about 2 am the following morning.

 

But the end result was what I wanted, and what the owner was very pleased with (a Doctor), and after that I "managed" the tank for a few months to make sure that all was ok and that the filtration was adequate as determining in advance what was really needed is not really possible (one can take a good guess at it and be be close but to be exact one has to follow what goes on.

 

I made needed changes and in this case I did have to add a second sump (fortunately the owner had all the filtration in the fish room behind the tank so that was not a big issue)

 

Of course a lot of more work was involved. Amongst others: doing a lot of re-piping and adding more controls to ensure that the flow from one sump to the other was adequate and that the bio-filter in the larger of the two sumps was progressing nicely as well. It did.

 

I should have pictures of that tank somewhere but not sure where I saved them ... If I find them I'll post them.

 

Anyway as I was saying "planning" before getting going and just adding rock and other items willy nilly to a tank is usually not going to work out and many are in such a rush to get their reefs or even just plain tanks up and running in a jiffy that more often than not planning is not part of what they do ... as I did find out in those days when I took on consulting jobs for large aquariums and reefs and ran into many instances where lots of time needed to be spent changing things around in those tanks.

 

The largest one I worked on btw was a shark tank at Sharky's Reef in Metairie LA, a restaurant. That thank was over 120 thousand gallons (8 feet deep and covering the whole length of the back of the restaurant. If you have been to that restaurant you will know what the tank looks like. That job started off with a phone call from the owners of the rest (3 lawyers) because there sharks kept getting skin diseases and eventually die (and buying new ones from Florida cost them over 8 grand in those days).

 

I spend about 4 full days there and worked probably 14 if not more hours a day getting that tank taken care of of but in the end with all the changes made (including adding special half circle panels at the end of the aquarium on both sides as sharks cannot make 90 degree turns - so the ends had to be rounded to they would not bump into the sides - but I guess whoever built the original tank did not know that).

 

That was quite a job believe me as I had to dive into the tank to check out the substrate which was close to 3 feet deep and take samples from the top and the bottom to analyze to find out what was going on it that substrate (a mess I can tell you).

 

You may wonder how I got into the tank with 10 Tiger sharks in it ... yes 10. Well not that difficult .. I had someone else feed the sharks and feed them more till they were satiated and did not care for food anymore. Once that was accomplished I was quite certain they would leave me alone for the most part, although a few did come and sort of "check" what the heck is that thing in the aquarium (me) ... but they never got aggressive.

 

I finished the job after just about changing everything including a large portion of the bottom of the substrate as there was a lot of anaerobic stuff going on there and a lot of the dolomite and cline they had used was fused together in large clumps and obviously totally prevented water from going through and that is what created the anaerobic areas inside those clumps - and that is what ended up fouling up the water and when things got too bad that is when the sharks started to get those skin diseases. What a job that was I tell you. I'll try and write a blog about it and post it to the forum in a few days when I try to recollect what else went on as I did that job something in the early 90's so I really am going to have to think back and try to remember as much as possible so I can post some more details (I may still have some water quality numbers somewhere on a back up zip drive as that is what I used in those days to back up docs). I'll have to check ...

 

Anyway so much for a post that started off with the statement that "planning" before you actually start putting anything in the tank IS most important ... hopefully the details about other tanks I dealt with made it real clear that you must plan and rethink your plan and even run it by some hobbyists who have been at it for a much longer time than yourself and get their input. It always amazes me that a lot of hobbyists do not do so even tough there are so many experts or hobbyists who have kept tanks for years and years, around and who are willing to share their knowledge.

 

Albert

 

 

If they turned brown (burnt) it may have been an issue of either too much light, or the wrong light or too long a full light cycle ... some have gotten around this by using light dimmers but unfortunately that does not work with every kind of bulb. Some just cannot be attenuated or dimmed.

 

The alternative is to wire the lights not all on on circuit but on 2 or more depending on how many bulbs there are so that say if you have 6 you can switch them on and off 2 at a time, thus lowering the light if you start with six and then go to 4 and then to 2 and then to night lighting (they used to call it moon light but I never liked that term). Low light from very low voltage of the newer twisted looking FL tubes has worked well for a friend of mine (Leo Wojcek from NJ - don't know if he is still around - he used to make and sell filters and very large skimmers some so large in fact that I called them the "Monsters" . They did the job though but you sure needed a lot of space for them and some hobbyists I dealt with in those days used to build frames around them out of water resistant treated wood and paint that so the actual skimmer was not visible as they were indeed kind of unsightly even though they were very efficient. Wonder if any of you remember Leo and whether he is still around. If he is let me know will you.

 

Note that I have observed some of them turn back from brown to a nice creamy white ilke Nacre, with proper care and of course a change in the lighting conditions. Whether that happens depends on the type of coral and where it geographically came from as even similar corals coming from different geo areas react in a different say to lighting and other conditions

 

 

Just curious ... why did you take it down .. ?

 

Albert

 

Thank you for the detailed notes here Mr. Thiel. I copied them over from my biocube build to this one since everyone is following you here right now.

 

I took down that 14gallon tank as I had 3 at the time, now I just have 2, my 34G and a 2 G pico which is also a contest tank right here on nano-reef. I simply ran out of space and did not want 2 tanks that were the same, if I had converted one to a species only tank then I would have considered keeping it. I transferred all livestock and even the rocks to my current tank.

 

The browning may also have been a result of phosphates, I was notoriously lax in water changes with a heavy hand when it came to feeding the fish.

 

I hope to have conquered these problems in my current tank.

[albertthiel]

Thanks Miss Kat as several seem to call you

 

I will keep looking around and definitely check out the ones you listed below. I am thinking about a small one but not too small, something between nano and pico (napi or noco )

 

The JBJ and Oceanic seem like about the right size. I look for them on the net ... And yes once I am ready to start I will for sure welcome input from you and everyone else who wants to be part of the project and follow what goes on and develops.

 

Albert

 

 

Thank you Brian, I'm just really humbled that Mr. Thiel agreed to come on the forum.

 

 

Well said Mark. Even being a part of Mr. Thiel's build will be epic!

 

Mr. Thiel, there are several All-in-one nano tanks available that are popular.

Red Sea Max (smallest is 34 gallon)

Oceanic/Coralife Bio Cube (smallest is 8 gallon)

JBJ (smallest is 12 gallons I think)

 

If you want to go even smaller there are many options like an Ecopico

 

 

 

Thanks Scooby, yeah bunny the clam is very tiny. You know what is a monster? DINGBAT!!! He's enormous.

[metrokat]

Diving into a tank with 10 sharks must have been a sight! I hope you find the photos.

[albertthiel]

Yes I hope I can still find them ... It was an experience indeed ! I had been inside a lot of tanks but none with sharks so that was a first ...

 

I also built and stocked and equipped the large aquarium in the downstairs restaurant at the Hyatt in Atlanta, its 31 feet long and consists of 3 parts : the left and the right are 2 feet deep and the middle is 4 feet deep.

 

The biofilter was humongous ... and the skimmer was 8 feet tall ... What a job that was . Need to be done with 2 half inch panes of glass glued (plated) together by a company in Houston and then shipped to us, because the Hotel Manager wanted to be sure that if anyone threw plates at the aquarium or if someone shot at it that the aquarium would not burst open ... it is still in operation now after all those years and has been saltwater, then fresh, then salt and the last time I was there it was still salt but with minor amount of corals in it.

 

It's quite a sight ... the Rest is called Avanzare

 

Albert

 

 

Will have to go through tons of zip drives ... as that was what was used to store stuff in those days

 

Albert

 

Diving into a tank with 10 sharks must have been a sight! I hope you find the photos.

[MrAnderson]

mr. thiel, when you are ready i'd be happy to pass along some of my research specimens. my lab studies marine biofilms - we get live rock, collect scrapings, do 16S PCR, clone and sequence the DNA fragments, identify microbes, and sort out the microbial community dynamics and diversity. we get our rock air-shipped directly from Indonesia so that it's off of the reef only about 72 hours til it gets to new york. when we add it to our sterilized tubs, our cycle is minimal (partially because we do aggressive, 100% water changes daily), usually only a couple days. i think it's probably the closest thing to natural reef rock you would be able to get in this country (of Indo-Pacific origin, of course). i'd be happy to share with you - i have tubs of the stuff, waiting for student projects, i can certainly spare a few chunks.

[Nano sapiens]

Actually yes I am. What are in your opinion the best pre-built systems around right now ?

 

I checked a few on the Net and found a lot of them ranging from over $700 to as low as $50 ... any recommendations ?

 

Albert

 

I have an early 12g Cadlights All-in-One that I have been very happy with for the last 4 years. I especially like the quality of the thick, beveled glass.

 

As Metrokat mentioned, there are a bunch of other nice units out there, too.

 

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

[albertthiel]

I thank you for the offer. That is very kind of you and yes when I am ready I will send you a note. Still trying to decide what system to use and how large ... but I should be able to decide in a day or two and then order it, or alternatively build my own (I built so many in the past that it should not be a problem to do so).

 

Again thanks for the offer.

 

Albert

 

 

 

mr. thiel, when you are ready i'd be happy to pass along some of my research specimens. my lab studies marine biofilms - we get live rock, collect scrapings, do 16S PCR, clone and sequence the DNA fragments, identify microbes, and sort out the microbial community dynamics and diversity. we get our rock air-shipped directly from Indonesia so that it's off of the reef only about 72 hours til it gets to new york. when we add it to our sterilized tubs, our cycle is minimal (partially because we do aggressive, 100% water changes daily), usually only a couple days. i think it's probably the closest thing to natural reef rock you would be able to get in this country (of Indo-Pacific origin, of course). i'd be happy to share with you - i have tubs of the stuff, waiting for student projects, i can certainly spare a few chunks.

 

 

Well that are positive comments if you have had it for so long and are still happy with it. Who sells that particular unit ... Sounds like it is one that I should definitely consider. Thanks for letting me know

 

Albert

 

 

I have an early 12g Cadlights All-in-One that I have been very happy with for the last 4 years. I especially like the quality of the thick, beveled glass.

 

As Metrokat mentioned, there are a bunch of other nice units out there, too.

 

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

[albertthiel]

I took a good look at your pics and here is one that really shows how well that tank is doing and obviously how well you take care of it ... Great shot too ...

 

 

Albert

 

I have an early 12g Cadlights All-in-One that I have been very happy with for the last 4 years. I especially like the quality of the thick, beveled glass.

 

As Metrokat mentioned, there are a bunch of other nice units out there, too.

 

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

[metrokat]

we get our rock air-shipped directly from Indonesia so that it's off of the reef only about 72 hours til it gets to new york. when we add it to our sterilized tubs, our cycle is minimal (partially because we do aggressive, 100% water changes daily), usually only a couple days. i think it's probably the closest thing to natural reef rock you would be able to get in this country (of Indo-Pacific origin, of course).

Dang Mr. A. Where were you when I had uncured rock shipped to me by the boatload from Florida for this tank. And right in my back yard too! I must see this rock! pictures? Personal tour?

[albertthiel]

Kat ... 2 is far better than 4 but 0 is a lot better but then you knew that ... what's the nitrite doing ?

 

Albert

 

 

 

Thank you everyone. Ammonia still at 2ppm, better than 4 ya? Doing a 5 gallon change right now.

 

 

Can I use the picture below in an article I am working on. Thanks for letting me know Nano Sapiens ...

 

Albert

 

I took a good look at your pics and here is one that really shows how well that tank is doing and obviously how well you take care of it ... Great shot too ...

 

 

Albert

[metrokat]

Kat ... 2 is far better than 4 but 0 is a lot better but then you knew that ... what's the nitrite doing ?

Albert

 

Mr. Thiel that was in the first 2 weeks of the tank, I had a harsh cycle, my uncured rock had a ton of die off, I panicked, I should have had them cure in a tub but I scaped in a hurry because I could smell trouble. I still planned the scape though! Today I am in the 5th month of this tank being up. I have sky high calcium, low alk and a little bit of phosphates. I have a reactor going for the phos, and am dosing Alk.

[albertthiel]

I thought that Hobbyists had just about given up on Florida rock .. it used to be quite popular when that Company from Tampa used to sell it for real good prices but I seem to remember that lots of people had the same observations about it : very tough cycle and a long one in quite a few cases but then if one is patient that is sometimes not a bad thing ... only problem I think was that it came with a lot of bristle worms in many cases and that the size of the pieces was very variable and not to everyone's liking.

 

I did get a lot of rock from the Pacific Islands and fared much better with it but I do not mean to imply that the FLA rock should not be used. That's a decision every hobbyist has to make for him or herself.

 

 

Albert

 

 

 

Dang Mr. A. Where were you when I had uncured rock shipped to me by the boatload from Florida for this tank. And right in my back yard too! I must see this rock! pictures? Personal tour?

 

 

Sounds like I picked up on an old message and from what you say it looks like the tank is doing much better now and that your initial problems are over but then everyone goes through what you went through: die off, ammonia build up and then nitrite leading to high nitrates and if one is not careful sudden algae outbreaks that become hard to control.

 

Glad to read things are now going a lot better ...

 

Albert

 

 

Mr. Thiel that was in the first 2 weeks of the tank, I had a harsh cycle, my uncured rock had a ton of die off, I panicked, I should have had them cure in a tub but I scaped in a hurry because I could smell trouble. I still planned the scape though! Today I am in the 5th month of this tank being up. I have sky high calcium, low alk and a little bit of phosphates. I have a reactor going for the phos, and am dosing Alk.

[Nano sapiens]

Kat ... 2 is far better than 4 but 0 is a lot better but then you knew that ... what's the nitrite doing ?

 

Albert

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can I use the picture below in an article I am working on. Thanks for letting me know Nano Sapiens ...

 

Albert

 

Sure thing.

[albertthiel]

Thanks. I appreciate it ... I'll list the credit as Nano Sapiens on nano-reef.com unless you want me to use a different name ... just let me know when you have a moment. Thanks

 

Albert

 

 

Sure thing.

[albertthiel]

I notice you always call me by my last name ... you are welcome to just call me Albert Metrokat ...

 

Albert

 

Mr. Thiel that was in the first 2 weeks of the tank, I had a harsh cycle, my uncured rock had a ton of die off, I panicked, I should have had them cure in a tub but I scaped in a hurry because I could smell trouble. I still planned the scape though! Today I am in the 5th month of this tank being up. I have sky high calcium, low alk and a little bit of phosphates. I have a reactor going for the phos, and am dosing Alk.

[MrAnderson]

Dang Mr. A. Where were you when I had uncured rock shipped to me by the boatload from Florida for this tank. And right in my back yard too! I must see this rock! pictures? Personal tour?

 

as you can tell, i generally keep it on the dl, but i made an exception for mr. thiel.

 

some recent samples we used for DNA sequencing analysis. batch came in april:

 

 

 

an amazing reticulate biofilm, i can't wait to get the libraries generated and the sequencing completed on this one:

 

 

one of the tubs:

 

 

 

also, this isn't in nyc. i was originally at columbia and i'm from nyc but i moved on in 08 - bad timing! not far out of the city though... so a tour might be tough.

[metrokat]

as you can tell, i generally keep it on the dl, but i made an exception for mr. thiel.

some recent samples we used for DNA sequencing analysis. batch came in april:

wow, thanks for posting! My uncured rock came from Florida and is pictured here.

 

I'm just in love with the life that comes on it, yes there are always risks of pests but it purples up like no other, my tank looks far more mature than it really is.

[metrokat]

I notice you always call me by my last name ... you are welcome to just call me Albert Metrokat ...

 

Albert

Will do!

[MrAnderson]

that actually looks REALLY nice - the coverage is gorgeous. what is the "rock" though? is it that concrete like TBS used to dump in the ocean to mature? it can't be natural live rock...

[metrokat]

that actually looks REALLY nice - the coverage is gorgeous. what is the "rock" though? is it that concrete like TBS used to dump in the ocean to mature? it can't be natural live rock...

The rock composition varied. Some were very porus and some very dense

 

This is my favorite piece, as big as a dinner plate in diameter

 

And is this piece in my scape:

 

 

Dense rock

 

Porus piece right here but looks manmade

[albertthiel]

These are some of the nicest pieces I have seen in a long long time. Wow .. they look far better than 99.9 % of what is out there for sale for sure.

 

Thanks for your offer ... and I will let you know when I have a nano ready for rock ... I really appreciate the courtesy and the offer. Thank you kindly

 

Albert

 

 

 

as you can tell, i generally keep it on the dl, but i made an exception for mr. thiel.

 

some recent samples we used for DNA sequencing analysis. batch came in april:

 

 

 

an amazing reticulate biofilm, i can't wait to get the libraries generated and the sequencing completed on this one:

 

 

one of the tubs:

 

 

 

also, this isn't in nyc. i was originally at columbia and i'm from nyc but i moved on in 08 - bad timing! not far out of the city though... so a tour might be tough.

[MrAnderson]

i meant, did they tell you how it was made? since it's illegal to collect and sell live rock anywhere off florida or caribbean reefs, companies that sell live rock from there make it in a variety of ways. tampa bay saltwater (TBS) dumps chunks of concrete in the water and lets it get colonized for a year or two, then sell it. some companies use terrestrial rocks. it still results in gorgeous live rock, but the biological dynamics are a little different since it's usually denser and less porous than naturally formed live rock.

[Spirofucci]

Best thread on NR.

[MrAnderson]

Best thread on NR.

 

god i haven't been outside the lounge in years. feels weird discussing things like a normal human, all civil and ####.

 

whoops.

[TeflonTomDosh]

i meant, did they tell you how it was made? since it's illegal to collect and sell live rock anywhere off florida or caribbean reefs, companies that sell live rock from there make it in a variety of ways. tampa bay saltwater (TBS) dumps chunks of concrete in the water and lets it get colonized for a year or two, then sell it. some companies use terrestrial rocks. it still results in gorgeous live rock, but the biological dynamics are a little different since it's usually denser and less porous than naturally formed live rock.

I'm sure TBS would love that you're telling people on here they dump "concrete" in the water and let it colonize. Should educate yourself before you make statements like that, jus sayin...

 

TBS, the History...