tibbsy07 Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 "The timeline of events suggests that the oxydator is the culprit of increase in algae production][/size] Incidental? [/size] it could be, but unlikely. I've been trying to track progress with the oxydator and so I have been running a very tight ship with my tank. Could be coincidence, but given everything else, not likely. Also given the diatom bloom on the oxydator itself... Xenia are still furious because of peroxide. Hopefully they will adjust. Link to comment
tibbsy07 Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Like I said what is important here to the users of the Oxydator is does peroxide exit the Oxydator into the water column of the tank. The only evidence we could see IE a negative reaction has not been observed by any of the many I know who use Oxydator's and over many many years.So does this mean that my experience is invalid so far? Because other people haven't seen it, my experience is wrong? I have been tracking the oxydator and my tank since I got it. Xenia were happy before. They haven't pulsed or even unfurled since the oxydator has been in the tank. I have had this happen 2 times before. Once was when I dosed too much hydrogen peroxide for a cyano problem, and the other was when I used peroxide to clean my Purigen and didn't rinse it well enough. Both were hydrogen peroxide caused. The two macro algae have gone from existing as non visible for weeks to an explosion of growth over the last 3 days or so, with no added biological load. Again, I am not saying they don't work, but if you are going to somehow imply that my anecdotal evidence is less than or invalid because of the other anecdotal evidence, you are a fool or a troll. Also, the amount of peroxide in the patent for all the oxydators says a minimum of 5% and a maximum of 30%, why is no one paying attention to that? Click on the links I posted. The latest one from 2004 says that specifically and that the optimal is 15%. They also state that anything less than 5% is impractical and useless. There is nowhere that I have found that says 3% for the mini/nano, not even in the instructions FOr the nano, which is what I have. Link to comment
pal Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 So does this mean that my experience is invalid so far? Because other people haven't seen it, my experience is wrong? I have been tracking the oxydator and my tank since I got it. Xenia were happy before. They haven't pulsed or even unfurled since the oxydator has been in the tank. I have had this happen 2 times before. Once was when I dosed too much hydrogen peroxide for a cyano problem, and the other was when I used peroxide to clean my Purigen and didn't rinse it well enough. Both were hydrogen peroxide caused. The two macro algae have gone from existing as non visible for weeks to an explosion of growth over the last 3 days or so, with no added biological load. Again, I am not saying they don't work, but if you are going to somehow imply that my anecdotal evidence is less than or invalid because of the other anecdotal evidence, you are a fool or a troll. Also, the amount of peroxide in the patent for all the oxydators says a minimum of 5% and a maximum of 30%, why is no one paying attention to that? Click on the links I posted. The latest one from 2004 says that specifically and that the optimal is 15%. They also state that anything less than 5% is impractical and useless. There is nowhere that I have found that says 3% for the mini/nano, not even in the instructions FOr the nano, which is what I have. ARRRR you whisky dosing yourself? You suspect that peroxide is leaking out of your oxydator.Causing your corals to be sad , at the same time causing an explosion of growth of algae, and macro algae growth. So you think you need stronger peroxide? Link to comment
tibbsy07 Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Lol, I don't think the leaking peroxide is the cause of the macro. I think that is probably an addition of CO2 as others have discussed. However, if the peroxide is too low of a concentration and is leaky then the reaction may not be progressing rapidly enough for the full breakdown. I think that may be what is going on with the Xenia. Increasing the peroxide concentration may shift the reaction kinetics and efficiency higher, causing less peroxide to enter the water column, but allowing more oxygen to enter the water column. The algae may just be temporary as some have said that the first 2 weeks or so weren't great for them. The patent of the oxydators specifically says what concentrations to use. And I bet it has a lot to do with the reaction dynamics. Link to comment
pal Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Lol, I don't think the leaking peroxide is the cause of the macro. I think that is probably an addition of CO2 as others have discussed. However, if the peroxide is too low of a concentration and is leaky then the reaction may not be progressing rapidly enough for the full breakdown. I think that may be what is going on with the Xenia. Increasing the peroxide concentration may shift the reaction kinetics and efficiency higher, causing less peroxide to enter the water column, but allowing more oxygen to enter the water column. The algae may just be temporary as some have said that the first 2 weeks or so weren't great for them. The patent of the oxydators specifically says what concentrations to use. And I bet it has a lot to do with the reaction dynamics. going with whiskey dosing, ARRRRR Whisky dosing it is, And all your reaction babble. The more reaction the more magic peroxide gets squirted into the magic ceramic., Link to comment
Neill.w Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Wow what a thread! I had a chat with Dr Uwe at Söchting Biotechnic and sent him a link to this thread. We can be 100% sure now the peroxide is indeed contacting the water directly and the Oxydator is a just a rather elegant peroxide dosing system. I am still trying to get clarification of the exact mechanism as the language barrier is making things a bit tricky The science behind peroxide dosing for algae control and water quality is no mystery and is well studied with literally hundreds and hundreds of papers on the subject eg: Responses of marine macroalgae to hydrogen-peroxide stress A.L Dummermuth, a, , U Karstenb, K.M Fischc, G.M Königc, C Wienckea Combined Exposure to Hydrogen Peroxide and LightSelective Effects on Cyanobacteria, Green Algae, and Diatoms Michaela Drábková Wim Admiraal and Blahoslav Maršálek Dr Uwe has offered to send a few (hopefully English papers!) my way but a quick look on Google scholar shows no shortage of papers on the subject and, obviously it is something that has been used for years in the hobby anyway (eg peroxide dipping coral frags and dosing directly) Tibbsy and others are making valid points and sharing observations which is what this is all about in the end and the reason we are all on this forum sharing our experiences. If someone has a different experience to you do not go complaining to the High Magus that we overheard discussion of spells to turn the village cow's milk sour. Lets investigate, create hypothesis, do science and find out why! There are obviously no shortage of success stories throughout this thread but in a few cases (Tibssy,Ben) and possibly a few others there has been a either no effect or appears to be increase in algae. A few hypothesis: Dose related : Tibbsy correctly points out the included solution seems at odds with the manufacturers own specifications. I suspect the peroxide included is simply the highest concentration they can supply. When I imported these even with the week solution included I was asked to provide a Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) and was barred from importing containers over a certain size which is why I can only supply peroxide with the minis and none of the other models. I know in Tibbsy's case he is using the mini with a single Catylist in a 10g tank though the device is only really rated to 8g. This paper (while very old) is quite an easy to read and shows a very dose dependent effect of hydrogen peroxides ability to break down algae and vascular plants. Equilibrium Dr. Uwe sugested the following: "There are hundreds of different algae and they have different optimal life circumstances, so it might be that a change favors one or another algae better than the others. But after a while it will get better when eventually everything reaches biological equilibrium." A few other interesting thoughts Now we know how this works (H 2O 2 dosing) it should be light reactive process with the chlorophyll bleaching quicker when subject to brighter light. Photo enchancement of hydrogen peroxide toxicity to submersed vascular plants and algae HK Stratford, PC Quimby, JD Ouzts Thanks to everyone who has posted so far! Link to comment
CronicReefer Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 I'm glad you were able to clarify a lot of things for us. I'm very interested in what the doctor had to say on this. Link to comment
atoll Posted March 24, 2015 Author Share Posted March 24, 2015 Well that appears to clear that up I wonder what % of peroxide actually escapes the Oxydator and what % is converted to O2 and H2O. I assume what amount of peroxide that does manage to escape into the water column quickly reacts with DOC etc. Link to comment
atoll Posted March 24, 2015 Author Share Posted March 24, 2015 So does this mean that my experience is invalid so far? Because other people haven't seen it, my experience is wrong? Not at all I am just stating what I know to be true as you have. I have been tracking the oxydator and my tank since I got it. Xenia were happy before. They haven't pulsed or even unfurled since the oxydator has been in the tank. My pulsing Xenia is just fine so I am observing the opposite to you it seems with xenia in my tank but then all tanks are different. . I have had this happen 2 times before. Once was when I dosed too much hydrogen peroxide for a cyano problem, and the other was when I used peroxide to clean my Purigen and didn't rinse it well enough. Both were hydrogen peroxide caused. So you dosed too much peroxide and got a negative reaction. Just what is to be expected. I have done exactly the same but on purpose when I was carrying out experiments many years ago. The two macro algae have gone from existing as non visible for weeks to an explosion of growth over the last 3 days or so, with no added biological load. Again, I am not saying they don't work, but if you are going to somehow imply that my anecdotal evidence is less than or invalid because of the other anecdotal evidence, you are a fool or a troll. I implied nothing I posed a question as in "incidental?s Also, the amount of peroxide in the patent for all the oxydators says a minimum of 5% and a maximum of 30%, why is no one paying attention to that? Click on the links I posted. The latest one from 2004 says that specifically and that the optimal is 15%. They also state that anything less than 5% is impractical and useless. There is nowhere that I have found that says 3% for the mini/nano, not even in the instructions FOr the nano, which is what I have. No more than 6% peroxide is recommended in aquariums the higher % is for the much larger "W" pond version of the Oxydator in what would normally be a much larger water volume. I agree with the 6% recommendations although from time to time I have used 9% OOps I meant to break the quotes up with my posts. Sorry. Link to comment
atoll Posted March 24, 2015 Author Share Posted March 24, 2015 So if some are in fact experiencing an outbreak of algae issues while others do not just what is the cause? Perhaps there is in fact a logical explanation in perhaps the improved/small amount of peroxide/increased oxygen levels/increased redox is causing a reaction either directly or indirectly with substances bound up in your rock or sand. Phosphate and nitrate are the logical ones but there could be others like silicate being released. algae require light (most do) and a food source so if we can eliminate our light as being the cause of an algae outbreak then a food source seems logical. I can't see the Oxydator providing a food source directly but indirectly is a possibility and more likely IMO. Link to comment
jedimasterben Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Well that appears to clear that up I wonder what % of peroxide actually escapes the Oxydator and what % is converted to O2 and H2O. I assume what amount of peroxide that does manage to escape into the water column quickly reacts with DOC etc. It would depend on the percentage of peroxide used and how many silver catalysts are inside the reservoir. The O2 liberated by the catalyzed peroxide can not and will not enter your tank, and as time goes on the peroxide solution will be weaker and weaker due to the catalysts breaking it down, so the reaction will start to trail off before fizzling out. So if some are in fact experiencing an outbreak of algae issues while others do not just what is the cause? Perhaps there is in fact a logical explanation in perhaps the improved/small amount of peroxide/increased oxygen levels/increased redox is causing a reaction either directly or indirectly with substances bound up in your rock or sand. Phosphate and nitrate are the logical ones but there could be others like silicate being released. algae require light (most do) and a food source so if we can eliminate our light as being the cause of an algae outbreak then a food source seems logical. I can't see the Oxydator providing a food source directly but indirectly is a possibility and more likely IMO. Well, we shall see what happens when I reload my oxydator with peroxide (this time will be 12%, about 75mL of 35%peroxide and 145mL of DI water versus the 40mL peroxide and 180mL water I was using before), it did not last very long, but tiny amount of bubbling stopped after around a week, haven't had a chance yet to change it. Link to comment
atoll Posted March 24, 2015 Author Share Posted March 24, 2015 It would depend on the percentage of peroxide used and how many silver catalysts are inside the reservoir. The O2 liberated by the catalyzed peroxide can not and will not enter your tank, and as time goes on the peroxide solution will be weaker and weaker due to the catalysts breaking it down, so the reaction will start to trail off before fizzling out. Well, we shall see what happens when I reload my oxydator with peroxide (this time will be 12%, about 75mL of 35%peroxide and 145mL of DI water versus the 40mL peroxide and 180mL water I was using before), it did not last very long, but tiny amount of bubbling stopped after around a week, haven't had a chance yet to change it. Depending on how much "gunk is in your water etc will depend on how high a % you can use/get away with before you get a negative reaction. You could use 12% during a number of refills then one day you may get a negative reaction as I have experineced with high peroxide %. I put this down to the peroxide using up/converting the gunk DOC or whatever up and having to move on to something else hence the negative reaction which didn't happen on previous high % refills. If the O2 isn't entering the tank then what are the micro bubbles then? Link to comment
jedimasterben Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Depending on how much "gunk is in your water etc will depend on how high a % you can use/get away with before you get a negative reaction. You could use 12% during a number of refills then one day you may get a negative reaction as I have experineced with high peroxide %. I put this down to the peroxide using up/converting the gunk DOC or whatever up and having to move on to something else hence the negative reaction which didn't happen on previous high % refills. If the O2 isn't entering the tank then what are the micro bubbles then? What exactly would the peroxide move on to? The bubbles are from O2 released from the peroxide breaking down in the aquarium water or that which is trapped under the reservoir (which wouldn't be pure O2). What I am saying (and have been saying) is that the O2 that is released inside the reservoir from the catalyst breaking down the peroxide within it can not and will not be released from the acrylic container - again, it's simple physics, O2 is a gas lighter than water and peroxide and rises to the top of the container. Only if there were a hole in the top of the reservoir could it escape, but that would also allow aquarium water into it and would render the device moot. Link to comment
Chrisl1976 Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 The bubbles are from O2 released from the peroxide breaking down in the aquarium water or that which is trapped under the reservoir (which wouldn't be pure O2). What I am saying (and have been saying) is that the O2 that is released inside the reservoir from the catalyst breaking down the peroxide within it can not and will not be released from the acrylic container - again, it's simple physics, O2 is a gas lighter than water and peroxide and rises to the top of the container. Only if there were a hole in the top of the reservoir could it escape, but that would also allow aquarium water into it and would render the device moot. That is exactly what it appears to be doing. The catalyst breaking down the peroxide is acting as the regulator. I'm sure there is documentation on the device somewhere that states how much O2 is being produced per catalyst @ percentage of peroxide being used. Example: @6%, 1 catalyst releases 0.1ML of O2 per hours. @9%, 1 calyst releases 0.15ml of O2 per hour...and so on and so forth. I started my oxydator around 2pm yesterday and it has already dropped about 5/8" in volume. I will say the tank looks clearer, but that could simply be I did a 20% wc and cleaned the glass yesterday.... Link to comment
atoll Posted March 24, 2015 Author Share Posted March 24, 2015 What exactly would the peroxide move on to? The bubbles are from O2 released from the peroxide breaking down in the aquarium water or that which is trapped under the reservoir (which wouldn't be pure O2). What I am saying (and have been saying) is that the O2 that is released inside the reservoir from the catalyst breaking down the peroxide within it can not and will not be released from the acrylic container - again, it's simple physics, O2 is a gas lighter than water and peroxide and rises to the top of the container. Only if there were a hole in the top of the reservoir could it escape, but that would also allow aquarium water into it and would render the device moot. What exactly would the peroxide move on to? The bubbles are from O2 released from the peroxide breaking down in the aquarium water or that which is trapped under the reservoir (which wouldn't be pure O2). What I am saying (and have been saying) is that the O2 that is released inside the reservoir from the catalyst breaking down the peroxide within it can not and will not be released from the acrylic container - again, it's simple physics, O2 is a gas lighter than water and peroxide and rises to the top of the container. Only if there were a hole in the top of the reservoir could it escape, but that would also allow aquarium water into it and would render the device moot. I have witnessed the peroxide/;oxygen reacting with corals and in particular Anemones. Quote " The O2 liberated by the catalyzed peroxide can not and will not enter your tank" Now your saying Quote "The bubbles are from O2 released from the peroxide breaking down in the aquarium water" So which is it? My water has plenty of oxygen that I don't see even if it is lighter than water. The Oxygen in my water gets used up and is replenished. Oxydator's produce oxygen. Link to comment
brandon429 Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Now that someone has illuminated a slew of German articles and formal peroxide work it will be fun to compare the observations to years long peroxide threads that were made solely on the anecdote of a thousand tanks. Troylee has prob the oldest one running on US boards I know of, on reef2reef, so thats a lot of entrants to read from for exThe part about light accelerating the oxidative destruction and the selective tolerances of various plants are shocking, those had been mentioned in the threads found just off mass tank feedback. wonder what other congruents there are Thanks Ben for showing me Neills post, and thanks Neill for the clue lead there's clearly tons to read. Up until now I hadn't seen elevated peroxide studies it was older studies about metabolic and trace level peroxide levels in natural waters. Link to comment
jedimasterben Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 I have witnessed the peroxide/;oxygen reacting with corals and in particular Anemones. Quote " The O2 liberated by the catalyzed peroxide can not and will not enter your tank" Now your saying Quote "The bubbles are from O2 released from the peroxide breaking down in the aquarium water" So which is it? My water has plenty of oxygen that I don't see even if it is lighter than water. The Oxygen in my water gets used up and is replenished. I'm well aware of the reaction of corals to peroxide after having dosed many liters of it, and up to a liter in one dose, and have noted the effects on dozens of species of corals and invertebrates, so I do know what to look for. I'll say one more time, the O2 liberated inside the reservoir by the silver catalyst can not and will not enter your tank, ever, it's physically impossible unless you overturn the device. The bubbles you are seeing are due to the peroxide that is dripping into the water reacting and breaking down. The bubbles you see are what is not dissolved and rise to the surface and escape as only so much can be dissolved. Are you saying that since your water has gases dissolved in it that it must be possible for a gas to spontaneously become heavier and sink down through a liquid, only to become lighter again and bubble up? Link to comment
Chrisl1976 Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 On a side note to all the discussion about how O2 bubbles now sink, with the by product of the reaction being h20, what is the dilution rate of the peroxide in the container over time? As it runs, the peroxide would be getting diluted. Could this be reasoning why Tibsy is not getting better results using the 4.9%? Possibly why you see much larger bubbles in the beginning of a refill them you do at the end? Link to comment
atoll Posted March 24, 2015 Author Share Posted March 24, 2015 I'm well aware of the reaction of corals to peroxide after having dosed many liters of it, and up to a liter in one dose, and have noted the effects on dozens of species of corals and invertebrates, so I do know what to look for. I'll say one more time, the O2 liberated inside the reservoir by the silver catalyst can not and will not enter your tank, ever, it's physically impossible unless you overturn the device. The bubbles you are seeing are due to the peroxide that is dripping into the water reacting and breaking down. The bubbles you see are what is not dissolved and rise to the surface and escape as only so much can be dissolved. Are you saying that since your water has gases dissolved in it that it must be possible for a gas to spontaneously become heavier and sink down through a liquid, only to become lighter again and bubble up? Quote "I'm well aware of the reaction of corals to peroxide after having dosed many liters of it, and up to a liter in one dose, and have noted the effects on dozens of species of corals and invertebrates, so I do know what to look for" Well you asked me the question I gave you the answer that you already knew so I am unsure why you asked it. . Quote "Are you saying that since your water has gases dissolved in it that it must be possible for a gas to spontaneously become heavier and sink down through a liquid, only to become lighter again and bubble up?" Nope just stating facts that I have plenty of oxygen in my water which is constantly being used up and replenished. There is oxygen in the lower reaches of my tank. The Oxydator produces oxygen as part of it's working ability, oxygen is a gas as you rightly state O2 is O2 .after all. . . Quote "The bubbles you are seeing are due to the peroxide that is dripping into the water reacting and breaking down. The bubbles you see are what is not dissolved and rise to the surface and escape as only so much can be dissolved.2 Agreed O2 bubbles undissolved but there is also O2 that is dissolved in the water column. Link to comment
jedimasterben Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 On a side note to all the discussion about how O2 bubbles now sink, with the by product of the reaction being h20, what is the dilution rate of the peroxide in the container over time? As it runs, the peroxide would be getting diluted. Could this be reasoning why Tibsy is not getting better results using the 4.9%? Possibly why you see much larger bubbles in the beginning of a refill them you do at the end? Correct. The reaction is much faster in the beginning (more peroxide to react with) and as time goes on the reaction slows, dripping less and less of a weaker and weaker peroxide solution into the aquarium water. Link to comment
atoll Posted March 24, 2015 Author Share Posted March 24, 2015 Correct. The reaction is much faster in the beginning (more peroxide to react with) and as time goes on the reaction slows, dripping less and less of a weaker and weaker peroxide solution into the aquariumide/O2 is being forced out water. How do we know this? As the peroxide gets used up in the bell only Oxygen is above it. Water and peroxide/O2 is being forced/dripped out so where is the dilution of peroxide in the bell? Link to comment
jedimasterben Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 How do we know this? As the peroxide gets used up in the bell only Oxygen is above it. Water and peroxide/O2 is being forced/dripped out so where is the dilution of peroxide in the bell? ... what do you think the silver catalyst inside the reservoir is doing? Link to comment
atoll Posted March 24, 2015 Author Share Posted March 24, 2015 ... what do you think the silver catalyst inside the reservoir is doing? My mum always told me not to answer a question with a question. Link to comment
jedimasterben Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 My mum always told me not to answer a question with a question. Link to comment
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