Arkayology's Rimless 40g

[markalot]

I wonder, though, if the extra light can lead to increased coloration as a result of defensive mechanisms incorporated by the coral?

 

I think some later articles by Riddle covered this, but I am unclear on the conclusions or even if the conclusions have any merit.

 

Oh, and unless there was a PAR reading involved all we can determine from looking at someones tank is that it's visually bright. I know my All LED tank looks dimmer to me than my 40 did with T5's, but I'm measuring 400+ PAR 12 inches down and directly under the lights.

[D Z]

You probably didn't actually read what I linked, so I'll give you the gist - total photosynthetic activity goes down as you add more light over the saturation point, which is less than 200 micromols of PAR for most coral, and some SPS and soft corals can go up to around 400-450 PAR. Anything beyond that is 100% wasted effort as the corals desperately try to get that light away from them to avoid damage to the photoreceptors of the zooxanthellae.

Obviously, there is always a point where too much of something is bad. Every tank is different, every piece of coral is different, every light setup is different, there are just too many variables. For full disclosure, I have only used LED and I have only been active in this hobby for the past 6 months or so, but I am becoming a FIRM believer that, especially for a SPS heavy tank, if you are going to go hybrid, it is best to have more t5 than led. Without getting too detailed, from my observations, LED technology may just not be to the point yet where it is the end all final answer. I feel that it is possible, but the technology is not quite there yet. I have a feeling it has a lot to do with the way the light is directed, not so much the spectrum that is produced. Don't get me wrong, I have seen tanks that looks great and get great growth under purely LED, and Ark's tank is one of them. It really makes me wonder, though, what those tanks would look like under purely T5. What I am starting to think may be the best option right now is a hybrid that relies more on the T5 for primary light output, and utilizes the LEDs for ramp up/down and for fine, aesthetic coloration tuning to the eye.

 

For example, in Alex's situation, I recommended adding 2 more pairs of 36" T5 so that his setup would be heavy on the T5. Now, if he ran the LEDs at 75 - 100% power for the whole day in addition to 192W of T5, this would obviously be too much light. This goes back to the fact that every tank and every setup is different. At that point, he would need to dial in the spectrum and intensity/lighting period based on what he sees with his own 2 eyes to get it to a nice balance of what he feels is the look he wants and power that is required but not overkill.

[4x5]

You probably didn't actually read what I linked, so I'll give you the gist - total photosynthetic activity goes down as you add more light over the saturation point, which is less than 200 micromols of PAR for most coral, and some SPS and soft corals can go up to around 400-450 PAR. Anything beyond that is 100% wasted effort as the corals desperately try to get that light away from them to avoid damage to the photoreceptors of the zooxanthellae.

Someone should have told that to Adee's reef - http://reefbuilders.com/2012/02/06/adees-reef-sunlight/ - the growth in that tank was just phenomenal and his par readings were off the chart high.

[D Z]

Someone should have told that to Adee's reef - http://reefbuilders.com/2012/02/06/adees-reef-sunlight/ - the growth in that tank was just phenomenal and his par readings were off the chart high.

Wow

[NanoTopia]

Someone should have told that to Adee's reef - http://reefbuilders.com/2012/02/06/adees-reef-sunlight/ - the growth in that tank was just phenomenal and his par readings were off the chart high.

Not off the chart just shallow reef high. Anyone ever measured the PAR 18" below the water in a natural lagoon at 12pm?

 

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2013/9/aafeature

[4x5]

Not off the chart just shallow reef high.

Sorry I was exaggerating for effect.

[NanoTopia]

Sorry I was exaggerating for effect.

I have followed Adee's reef for a couple of years, I remember he was having difficulties in the winter months when he ran various lights, the reef would decline. Still it completely outgrew itself and then actually began to die, think it was mainly a flow issue personally. Nothing beats the sun for coral growth. Corals can adapt to 1000 PAR if they have evolved with it, I think we underestimate how much PAR some corals actually need, especially some of the maricultured pieces, some of those corals can easily handle 500 PAR and more.

[jedimasterben]

I wonder, though, if the extra light can lead to increased coloration as a result of defensive mechanisms incorporated by the coral?

 

I think some later articles by Riddle covered this, but I am unclear on the conclusions or even if the conclusions have any merit.

To an extent, yes, some of the colors that corals produce as defenses fluoresce, but just adding more light doesn't make everything better like everyone always assumes.

 

Obviously, there is always a point where too much of something is bad. Every tank is different, every piece of coral is different, every light setup is different, there are just too many variables. For full disclosure, I have only used LED and I have only been active in this hobby for the past 6 months or so, but I am becoming a FIRM believer that, especially for a SPS heavy tank, if you are going to go hybrid, it is best to have more t5 than led. Without getting too detailed, from my observations, LED technology may just not be to the point yet where it is the end all final answer. I feel that it is possible, but the technology is not quite there yet. I have a feeling it has a lot to do with the way the light is directed, not so much the spectrum that is produced. Don't get me wrong, I have seen tanks that looks great and get great growth under purely LED, and Ark's tank is one of them. It really makes me wonder, though, what those tanks would look like under purely T5. What I am starting to think may be the best option right now is a hybrid that relies more on the T5 for primary light output, and utilizes the LEDs for ramp up/down and for fine, aesthetic coloration tuning to the eye.

 

For example, in Alex's situation, I recommended adding 2 more pairs of 36" T5 so that his setup would be heavy on the T5. Now, if he ran the LEDs at 75 - 100% power for the whole day in addition to 192W of T5, this would obviously be too much light. This goes back to the fact that every tank and every setup is different. At that point, he would need to dial in the spectrum and intensity/lighting period based on what he sees with his own 2 eyes to get it to a nice balance of what he feels is the look he wants and power that is required but not overkill.

It's proven - anything photosynthetic has better growth with less overall, but more distributed light. This applies to corals and terrestrial plants alike as the principles are the same (and while there is next to no data on coral photosynthesis, there is oodles of research done on terrestrial plants and that is what they are finding). Fluorescent lights emit in all directions simultaneously, LEDs emit from a diode that is usually less than a millimeter wide and only in a 180 degree, so even with water scattering the light once it hits, it's still an extreme point-source light. People are so stressed over making LED arrays that are smaller and smaller and adding significantly more power (see AI and Ecotech lights, also Kessil for the more extreme example), but sacrificing total spread and true coverage. Corals will only be very colorful on the parts of them that receive the right amount of light, and with point-sources that becomes very difficult to get more than just the top and inside of a coral to really exhibit good color, of course having exceptions.

 

The fix for this is obviously to mimic T5 lights using strips of tight tight LED clusters (or multichip pucks) and the use of a quality diffuser to help spread the light even more. Next revision of my light will show this principle, as did one of my earlier arrays I had over my tank, which gave more growth using far less light.

 

Someone should have told that to Adee's reef - http://reefbuilders.com/2012/02/06/adees-reef-sunlight/ - the growth in that tank was just phenomenal and his par readings were off the chart high.

And corals exhibit the same behavior they do in the wild - they have to rely on different pigments (not all of which are visible, nor are they all 'nice' colors) and their xanthophyll cycle to prevent too much light and death.

 

Not off the chart just shallow reef high. Anyone ever measured the PAR 18" below the water in a natural lagoon at 12pm?

 

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2013/9/aafeature

I sure have - it's damned intense. I got a lot of funny looks at the beach, too, me taking the PAR meter out and doing measurements in a tidepool lol

 

I have followed Adee's reef for a couple of years, I remember he was having difficulties in the winter months when he ran various lights, the reef would decline. Still it completely outgrew itself and then actually began to die, think it was mainly a flow issue personally. Nothing beats the sun for coral growth. Corals can adapt to 1000 PAR if they have evolved with it, I think we underestimate how much PAR some corals actually need, especially some of the maricultured pieces, some of those corals can easily handle 500 PAR and more.

Then comes the issue that not all corals will adapt to it. They won't outright die, but they will not grow and will usually bleach with no tissue loss. This has been studied in the wild, corals transplanted from 30 meters to 15 failed to really 'stay alive' other than basically just staying alive. This will absolutely depend coral to coral, even within the same species.

[Alex B]

Ben I actually did read what you posted. Good read and thank you!

 

Honestly I'll keep it short and not clog up Arks thread. I will not deny you know a ton about LEDs. I've read through your stuff. I also see you know a lot about reef keeping. With out you taking offense, I'll say one thing. The proof is in the pudding. All the articles, and numbers you spit out are just that. I'm adding more t5 to my light on account of numerous recommendations from very experienced hobbyist. These same people are hobbyist with stunning examples of reef tanks. If your tank looked like the tank I saw last week, I would be taking notes from you to.

 

I'm also adding more t5 to remove some of the "user error" you could say. There is no denying led is much harder to dial in. Especially for a sps tank. I'll use my led to supplement and dial in spectrum. Also to ramp up/down and to run blues.

[jedimasterben]

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” - Neil deGrasse Tyson

[markalot]

I'm also adding more t5 to remove some of the "user error" you could say. There is no denying led is much harder to dial in. Especially for a sps tank. I'll use my led to supplement and dial in spectrum. Also to ramp up/down and to run blues.

 

Harder to dial in from our perspective. T5 bulbs made for reef tanks have a lot of research done for providing the correct spectrum and amount of light. Put a couple of knobs on an LED fixture and let the users dial in their preferred look and you are certainly going to end up with some epic failures. This is why there are epic threads for both Halide bulb choices and T5 combinations. These threads exist as users experiment with different bulbs or bulb combinations for the best results. The difference with LED is lack of a standard to go off of and the difficulty in dialing in what is needed to achieve those results.

 

So many LED failures happened during the era of blue.white LED fixtures, fixtures that were missing a lot of the spectrum needed for some corals to be healthy. Now we have numerous "full spectrum" LED fixtures but each one is a little different, so any progress made for using these lamps would be in threads specific to those fixtures.

 

Am I making sense?

[Alex B]

You make more then sense Mark. I feel 100% the same way! That's why I have decided to add more t5. I know my hybrid is a great light, and corals are coloring up. I'm just not seeing what I'm used to from sps and t5. Like I said. I'm sure it's user error. I'm sure there is a magic spot I could hit, but in not finding it lol...and that's completely my fault.

[Alex B]

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” - Neil deGrasse Tyson

 

You are absolutely Correct sir!!...but we are not talking about gravity or the speed of light. We are talking about reef tanks and corals. 2 things that still perplex scientist everyday

 

In a nutshell there is no science to what we do. Way to many variables. There is no definitive right or wrong way. Not even all the science in the world can argue that.

[Moolelo]

I am not going to argue which is correct, but to aid a fellow graduate students thread chaos;

Please do not use that quote for Tyson. That should be quoted from Fox Entertainment Group. As scientist we are to emphasize that it is not about belief it is about fact and by wording it in that format, you would acknowledging it as a belief not a fact (example: any religion could be subbed into that phrase).

This is only important because both sides of this are correct by the facts. Biochemically, photosynthesis works the way (essentially at least) jedi describes and light saturation works the way he explains. Ecologically, adapted light levels of coral are higher and less blue and have numerous extraneous factors. Dana riddle writes a great article, but leaves out this gap explanation between fields of marine biology and only covers one at a time.

All I am saying is there is not a correct answer yet, some of the labs in our facilities are working on such connections right now (well kinda). About no right or wrong answer, I would say that is stretching it because as we fill in gaps that becomes less true.

[Arkayology]

I'm glad something is happening in my thread other than me rambling, lol! Keep up the convo! It's very... illuminating

[DrVENKMAN]

I wonder, though, if the extra light can lead to increased coloration as a result of defensive mechanisms incorporated by the coral?

 

I have also wondered this, and have come to the conclusion that colorful coral is not necessarily healthy coral, a theory that I assume will not be very popular among hobbyist regardless of any supporting evidence. In my experience I have found Acroporas and Styloporas to grow at faster rates while in browned-out states than when displaying marked fluorescence. I speculate that the up-regulation of fluorescent pigments occurs in response to the saturation of photopigments under high intensity lighting, which if left unchecked causes deletarious oxidation within the corals metabolic pathways. I also beleive this effect is further amplified by nutrient deprivation in systems with aggressive nutrient export. ULNS may not provide the requiste organic compounds needed to continully generate intermediates in the photosynthetic pathway in order to keep up with demand under high PAR. I subscribe to the commonly held theory that the development of fluorescence acts to absorb and emit high-energy light away from photopigments, but I also surmise that their synthesis may provide a sink for oxidized molecules or even oxygen radicals generated during periods of excessive photosynthesis. I think most would agree that moderate light and the presence of a moderate amount of dissolved organics seems to produce brown SPS. I have seen much of it in my unskimmed tank and I have noticed that it grows like crazy, but when frags from of the same parent colonies are placed in the ULN systems belonging to my friends - with hell-fire halide or LED lights- they look absolutley fantasitc, but there growth rate is minute in comparison. I think growth rate is a better indicator of coral health rather than its coloration. But with that said I sure do love a colorful coral.

 

Feel free to conduct research to support my obnoxious speculations, then publish your findings, listing me as a contributing author,

[Arkayology]

I have also wondered this, and have come to the conclusion that colorful coral is not necessarily healthy coral, a theory that I assume will not be very popular among hobbyist regardless of any supporting evidence. In my experience I have found Acroporas and Styloporas to grow at faster rates while in browned-out states than when displaying marked fluorescence. I speculate that the up-regulation of fluorescent pigments occurs in response to the saturation of photopigments under high intensity lighting, which if left unchecked causes deletarious oxidation within the corals metabolic pathways. I also beleive this effect is further amplified by nutrient deprivation in systems with aggressive nutrient export. ULNS may not provide the requiste organic compounds needed to continully generate intermediates in the photosynthetic pathway in order to keep up with demand under high PAR. I subscribe to the commonly held theory that the development of fluorescence acts to absorb and emit high-energy light away from photopigments, but I also surmise that their synthesis may provide a sink for oxidized molecules or even oxygen radicals generated during periods of excessive photosynthesis. I think most would agree that moderate light and the presence of a moderate amount of dissolved organics seems to produce brown SPS. I have seen much of it in my unskimmed tank and I have noticed that it grows like crazy, but when frags from of the same parent colonies are placed in the ULN systems belonging to my friends - with hell-fire halide or LED lights- they look absolutley fantasitc, but there growth rate is minute in comparison. I think growth rate is a better indicator of coral health rather than its coloration. But with that said I sure do love a colorful coral.

 

Feel free to conduct research to support my obnoxious speculations, then publish your findings, listing me as a contributing author,

It's interesting that you mention this. I have always felt that when I have used LEDs, my acros do better with a little "dirty" water than in ULNS.

[latteslave]

tank looks great Matt - but I think I stumbled into the lighting forums???

[Spencer7]

@ DrVENKMAN

 

God, you sound like my research peers, always trying to sound smart and over-complicate concepts that are, in actuality, pretty remedial and/or unoriginal. Not everyone here needs to know whether or not you're a grad. student or the next big thing in science. Perhaps keep that kind of stuff to private messages?

 

Tank is looking great Ark, I hope you had a enjoyable and productive trip.

[Arkayology]

tank looks great Matt - but I think I stumbled into the lighting forums???

Hah!

 

BTW, I cut those frags for you. I am having some issues with my paras (apex was not dosing after I updated to new firmware), but they should be healthy and ready to go in a week when I am passing through your area.

[Alex B]

@DrVENKMAN

 

Without getting scientific, and without using big worlds, I'll tell you why your theory is flawed.

 

It's been proven that the best indicator of health in sps is color. There is no denying that. Your browned out colonies grow faster because they are in a high nutrient environment. No other reason. They prob don't have enough light to color up, and prob also have very thick tissue due to the high nutrients.

 

Have you ever seen wild caught colonies?? The colors on wild acros are amazing!! So your telling me this acro is suffering from too much light in the wild? Why do you think most people make sure that awesome new acro has been cooking in a tank for a while? It's because we want to make sure it's going to hold color. There is no telling what it could turn into once adapted to aquarium life.

 

If a brown coral is a healthy coral, then I am spending way too much time and money making my corals unhealthy. In that case, I might as well get out the hobby. Who wants to see poop colored corals anyways????

[Arkayology]

I lost one of my 2 cleaner shrimps today. Not really sure what to make of it. I got it when I started the tank almost 2 years ago in October. I figured cleaner shrimps lived longer than that. Maybe it had a problem molting?

[Alex B]

Any other inhabitants that could have wanted a snack??

[Arkayology]

Any other inhabitants that could have wanted a snack??

Na, I don't think so. Nothing has really paid them any mind ever. I doubt it was natural causes though...

[Alex B]

Maybe he pops up tom...you never know right?!?!?