Oxydator and Hydrogen peroxide.

[albertthiel]

 

Sorry Albert, all due respect, but what you are saying here is not true. There really is not "so much evidence" that it works. Merely stating that it must work because people think that it does--or even have 'perfect' tanks when using it (whatever that term may mean), just doesn't cut it. Sure, it may not be particularly harmful, but there really is no evidence that the unit is "working". That is what some are getting clamped up with here. This is especially true when you make a statement like, "...we know based upon all those reports that it DOES" Sorry, but no we don't.

 

You have to be intellectually sincere and admit that there is a real possibility that it does nothing and that your success could be predicated upon something else (good husbandry practices, luck, etc.). I will freely admit that I don't really know and that it could indeed be beneficial. YMMV.

 

So a company that has one product and have been selling it for say about 30 or years and gets excellent reviews on forums in the UK, in France, In Germany, in the US, in Australia and more has no credibility and its product does not do the job ... is that what you are saying.

 

Because no one to my knowledge truly understands how it affects a tank positively, the product should be discounted ?

 

And since you make the above remarks, have you actually used one ? I have a feeling you have not ... a bit difficult for me to accept comments about the efficiency of the Oxydator from someone who has never used one I have to say.

 

Remember the Oxydator is discussed on far far more than this thread ... and is sold all over the world and has been for decades. A bit difficult for me to accept the fact that a company can be in business for that long if and when its ;product supposedly does not benefit our aquariums and their livestock

 

Just saying

dont forget peroxide dosing

 

Indeed, just one of many more (e.g. the ones I mentioned in a previous post)

IMO the release of peroxide into the tank is what keeps my water clear and helps to control algae. Don't think there's any exact science to this oxydator, everyone tends to get different and varied results...it works for me!

 

For you and for many many others Rick

[atoll]

 

Sorry Albert, all due respect, but what you are saying here is not true. There really is not "so much evidence" that it works. Merely stating that it must work because people think that it does--or even have 'perfect' tanks when using it (whatever that term may mean), just doesn't cut it. Sure, it may not be particularly harmful, but there really is no evidence that the unit is "working". That is what some are getting clamped up with here. This is especially true when you make a statement like, "...we know based upon all those reports that it DOES" Sorry, but no we don't.

 

You have to be intellectually sincere and admit that there is a real possibility that it does nothing and that your success could be predicated upon something else (good husbandry practices, luck, etc.). I will freely admit that I don't really know and that it could indeed beneficial. YMMV.

Now I have to consider do I bore people again with the facts as I know them to be. OK just for you then.

 

I have used Oxydator's for around 35 years in around 12 tanks in that time always the same positive results all incidental of course. Then I have a number of friends who have used them for around 25 years give or take 5 years or so who have had similar results in any number of tanks all incidental of course. Then there are those all over the world inc here in the UK who use them and getting good results using Oxydator's which is all incidental of course. Then all over Europe etc etc.

 

All these god knows how many people who swear by the use of Oxydator's are all reporting incidental results in many forums not just on nano reefs or just US based forums. I think sometimes the people of the USA think if its not in the US then it's of no use. Oxydator's are very new in the US . I will remind you that up until a few short months ago you couldn't even buy an Oxydator in the US and I sent Albert his first one. Seahorse breeder in the UK was doing a good trade sending Oxydator's to the US until a US distributor was appointed well one that actually had them in stock. Now you can dismiss all the above as nothing the average aquarists has has been done in a scientific manner, I think we know the reasons for that. I could go on but then I would get criticized for repeating myself which i have done above of course.

[CJJon]

 

So a company that has one product and have been selling it for say about 30 or years and gets excellent reviews on forums in the UK, in France, In Germany, in the US, in Australia and more has no credibility and its product does not do the job ... is that what you are saying.

 

No, I am not saying that at all. However, I am saying those things have very little to do with the question of if it actually does anything beneficial.

 

Because no one to my knowledge truly understands how it affects a tank positively, the product should be discounted ?

 

Nope, not something I have said or even intimated with my comments. It is not all or nothing, Albert.

 

And since you make the above remarks, have you actually used one ? I have a feeling you have not ... a bit difficult for me to accept comments about the efficiency of the Oxydator from someone who has never used one I have to say.

 

I have not used one. That doesn't mean I lose my ability to think critically about it's use or how it 'works'.

 

Remember the Oxydator is discussed on far far more than this thread ... and is sold all over the world and has been for decades. A bit difficult for me to accept the fact that a company can be in business for that long if and when its ;product supposedly does not benefit our aquariums and their livestock

 

Really? So what? All these types of statements lead us down the wrong path, IMO. I am sorry it is hard for you to believe, but all the things you mention supporting the gadget have nothing to do with if it works or not. It is difficult for me to accept the apparent efficacy of anything based on sales data and positive forum posts alone.

 

I guess this isn't so much about the oxydator (for me) as it is about thinking critically and scientifically.

 

Just saying

 

Indeed, just one of many more (e.g. the ones I mentioned in a previous post)

 

Well, yeah, but again, what you are saying over and over is tenuous at best from a scientific perspective regarding the efficacy of the oxydator. It is not up for debate. Again, certainly, the oxydator may indeed be as beneficial as you posit. However, it might not. I don't understand why that concept is hard to grasp.

 

[atoll]

 

 

So a company that has one product and have been selling it for say about 30 or years and gets excellent reviews on forums in the UK, in France, In Germany, in the US, in Australia and more has no credibility and its product does not do the job ... is that what you are saying.

 

No, I am not saying that at all. However, I am saying those things have very little to do with the question of if it actually does anything beneficial.

 

Because no one to my knowledge truly understands how it affects a tank positively, the product should be discounted ?

 

Nope, not something I have said or even intimated with my comments. It is not all or nothing, Albert.

 

And since you make the above remarks, have you actually used one ? I have a feeling you have not ... a bit difficult for me to accept comments about the efficiency of the Oxydator from someone who has never used one I have to say.

 

I have not used one. That doesn't mean I lose my ability to think critically about it's use or how it 'works'.

 

Remember the Oxydator is discussed on far far more than this thread ... and is sold all over the world and has been for decades. A bit difficult for me to accept the fact that a company can be in business for that long if and when its ;product supposedly does not benefit our aquariums and their livestock

 

Really? So what? All these types of statements lead us down the wrong path, IMO. I am sorry it is hard for you to believe, but all the things you mention supporting the gadget have nothing to do with if it works or not. It is difficult for me to accept the apparent efficacy of anything based on sales data and positive forum posts alone.

 

I guess this isn't so much about the oxydator (for me) as it is about thinking critically and scientifically.

 

Just saying

 

Indeed, just one of many more (e.g. the ones I mentioned in a previous post)

 

Well, yeah, but again, what you are saying over and over is tenuous at best from a scientific perspective regarding the efficacy of the oxydator. It is not up for debate. Again, certainly, the oxydator may indeed be as beneficial as you posit. However, it might not. I don't understand why that concept is hard to grasp.

 

 

http://www.oxydator.de/english/soechting_oxydators.html

You could read the info in the above link if you haven't already done so which may or may not answer at least some of your concerns etc . I love theory and scientific evidence but what trumps both is the experience of others who actually use something reporting their experiences using it back. Now apparently If I do something to my tank like add an Oxydator for instance and I notice a positive reaction that's incidental. If somebody does the same and notices a departmental reaction that's fact right. Oxydator have a patent that describes how it works and the above link has lots of info on how it works, you may have already read it and dismissed it I don't know. .

[CJJon]

http://www.oxydator.de/english/soechting_oxydators.html

You could read the info in the above link if you haven't already done so which may or may not answer at least some of your concerns etc . I love theory and scientific evidence but what trumps both is the experience of others who actually use something reporting their experiences using it back. Now apparently If I do something to my tank like add an Oxydator for instance and I notice a positive reaction that's incidental. If somebody does the same and notices a departmental reaction that's fact right. Oxydator have a patent that describes how it works and the above link has lots of info on how it works, you may have already read it and dismissed it I don't know. .

 

Thanks for the reference. I've read both your linked info and every post in this thread. I understand the design of the oxydator, it is quite simple.

 

I think the real issue here is a lack of understanding of the scientific process. No, scientific evidence is not trumped by individual experience! This is the crux of my disagreement. We are not talking apples to apples. Your anecdotal personal experience does not get to trump measured data--even when that data does not currently exist. Your anecdotal experience will always be just that, regardless of having other measurable data or not. You can't hold it up as fact. Just can't.

[atoll]

tion that takes place

Thanks for the reference. I've read both your linked info and every post in this thread. I understand the design of the oxydator, it is quite simple.

 

I think the real issue here is a lack of understanding of the scientific process. No, scientific evidence is not trumped by individual experience! This is the crux of my disagreement. We are not talking apples to apples. Your anecdotal personal experience does not get to trump measured data--even when that data does not currently exist. Your anecdotal experience will always be just that, regardless of having other measurable data or not. You can't hold it up as fact. Just can't.

Keep searching for the scientific process much of which is explained in the link I put up. Perhaps if you were to write to the manufacturers they will provide you what you are looking for. The link explains the working and the chemical reaction that takes place with Oxydators. If you do write to them I would suggest you ask specific questions rather than something like "what is the scientific process". However Sochting have a vested interest in protecting their invention so may not want to play ball with you and who could blame them as they have a successful product to protect .

 

Once upon a time scientific evidence suggested a bee could not possibly fly and the Leaning Tower of Pisa couldn't possibly be standing until they found ways to explain them. An experience is an experience replicated in probably thousands of aquaria around the world, Sure few will be identical but given the numbers using them can anybody really suggest its just incidental. Yeah I know you are not saying the Oxydator does not work but neither do you suggest it does given we only have users reports to go by in a very unscientific way. In the meantime those who believe in the Oxydator will continue to use them scientific evidence of sorts or no. Works for me = continue to use. Does not work for me = in the trash or whatever and that is the bottom line for most. .

[afyounie]

Les, you consistently say the oxydator gives good results, but you never say what are the results. If the results are just a functioning tank with clear water, well that is achievable without the oxydator. Have you ever tried running without the oxydator other than 30 yrs ago before it was invented? A lot has changed in 30yrs. Maybe you don't even need it anymore. You wouldn't know if you hadn't tried. What are your results when you don't use the oxydator, if you have ever not used it? I would like an unbiased view, which Albert achieves somewhat, but I think both of you have been using the oxydator for so long, you don't actually know what its like to not use it. What measurable or notable changes do you observe between using and not using? Would either of you be willing to stop using the oxydator for a month, record the changes, then start it back up and record those changes?

 

This is a somewhat scientific manner of getting to an answer. The way you are going about it now is very belligerent, which I am surprised since you are someone with a lot of experience and age under your belt. You should be responding calmly and open minded. Think about all those that want to try this product. To those of us with no experience with it, its just another device to stick in your tank with no explanation to how it works. Many people aren't willing to just stick something in their tank on faith because we have all been burned too many times because of this. You saying that so many people use this doesn't sound very convincing when there seems to be only 3 or 4 on this entire forum saying it works. From my own research, its primarily used in freshwater and was never designed for saltwater.

 

So think about this from the point of view of someone who has tried many approaches and doesn't want to get burned one more time. And saying, "well I don't really care if they use it or not, it works for me" is not the answer. I'd be very upset if I was the inventor. This is very negative advertising. Even though I'm willing to give the oxydator a try, your attitude makes me think otherwise. You should be inviting and understanding to how everyone feels, or maybe you have forgotten what its like to be a young reefer? And by young reefer, I mean those that haven't been reefing for 30 yrs.

 

So lets all take a breather and come at this as adults that are interested in an idea that might be worth trying and just want to understand it a bit more before risking adding it to our tanks.

[CJJon]

Sorry atoll for not being clear. When I said 'scientific process' I really meant to say The Scientific Method. You are misunderstanding it to mean that I am talking about the particular scientific process that was used in this particular H2O2 instance, I am not. I mean to say that there is a lack of the basic understanding of how true science works -- The Scientific Method if you will.

 

You see, if you were more well-versed in The Scientific Method, you would know that the way you are going about championing your beliefs in the gadget is all wrong. Actually, it is doing it a disservice. It may be the best thing ever, but the message gets lost.

 

To be fair, I think you have been trying hard to say that you are basing your beliefs on your own personal experience. However, the friction arises when you give too much weight to your experience when extolling the virtues of the gadget. You must be able to concede that there is a chance that the gadget does nothing, or does very little, or does something good, or even might do something great. Maybe it might do something kinda bad. Do all these things have an equal likelihood? No. How likely? I don't know and you don't either.

[CronicReefer]

Sorry atoll for not being clear. When I said 'scientific process' I really meant to say The Scientific Method. You are misunderstanding it to mean that I am talking about the particular scientific process that was used in this particular H2O2 instance, I am not. I mean to say that there is a lack of the basic understanding of how true science works -- The Scientific Method if you will.

 

You see, if you were more well-versed in The Scientific Method, you would know that the way you are going about championing your beliefs in the gadget is all wrong. Actually, it is doing it a disservice. It may be the best thing ever, but the message gets lost.

 

To be fair, I think you have been trying hard to say that you are basing your beliefs on your own personal experience. However, the friction arises when you give too much weight to your experience when extolling the virtues of the gadget. You must be able to concede that there is a chance that the gadget does nothing, or does very little, or does something good, or even might do something great. Maybe it might do something kinda bad. Do all these things have an equal likelihood? No. How likely? I don't know and you don't either.

The oxydator works and it is very obvious to see if you use one for more than a week. My sand bed went from being covered in detritus as well as having some cyano/slime algae to looking like a brand new sand bed in only three days. I have before and after pictures that are noticeably different and I changed nothing else about my tank or routine other than adding the oxydator. Clearly it was the oxydator providing the benefits, nothing else did this. The purpose of the oxydator is to increase oxygen levels in the tank to provide an oxygen rich environment for your livestock (you can test for this yourself with a dissolved oxygen test kit). Other benefits reported are merely a bonus effect of having the oxydator. There is also plenty of statistics concerning how much oxygen is produced based on %of peroxide solution and how many catalysts are used (you can find some even on marinedepot.com). To make the claim that Albert and Les are not accurate with their claims because they have no scientific data is wrong because observational data is scientific data especially when the overwhelming majority report great benefits and very few report anything negative (algae growth is one example and I don't even know why algae growth is considered negative when it's due to CO2 increase). New planets are discovered by observing their host stars for a wobble or dip in brightness, all observational data, yet I doubt you question if the scientists' personal observations are wrong. Albert and Les have more experience and long term success than anyone I know in this hobby and I believe they deserve the credit for their knowledge and achievements.

[atoll]

I can only relate my experiences and that of others over a long period of time. I am unable even unwilling even if I had the inclination time money etc to carry out scientific experiments so can only talk about what I have done witnessed and what friends and others report. I have posted about the experiments I have done with little more than an oxygen test kit and a redox meter many years ago. I know of a number of people who won't post about Oxydator's on forums for fear of being bullied and ridiculed and I can understand that having been subjected to similar. I have reported instances of people (myself included) were cyno has been eradicated. Water much clearer and fish healthier. Corals expanding polyps further. I have seen stressed fish revived when an Oxydator was out in the tank, Tangs in particular after being introduced to a tank and so on and so forth

 

. I never put an Oxydator in a new tank for at least a month often longer and 3 months is not exceptional before putting an Oxydator in a new tank. IME it is important for a new set up to mature before introducing an Oxydator at least no nitrite and ammonia showing on test kits. However again I am repeating what I have said in previous posts and I have little more to give. CronicReefer mirrors many of not just my own but that of many's observations when using Oxydators. I only have basic tools not even a redox meter now nor an Oxygen test kit (I used a Dulpa O2 test at the time many years ago and an old analogue redox meter I borrowed)

 

I don't expect people to have blind faith this is no religion and people either think there is merit in what I and others say or they don't fine after all it's their choice. The price of an Oxydator's is hardly going to break the bank after all esp when you consider what reef aquarium equipment costs us..

 

It is true the Oxydator was not initially designed to be used in SW and I could find nothing anywhere at the time that people had tried them in SW but myself and a friend experimented with them all those years ago as I have documented before. However as the Oxydator is a simple device designed to do simple things my understanding is that there should be little difference between using Oxydator's in SW as opposed to FW the chemistry is similar along with the results.

 

What would be great is that somebody with the resources to carry out detailed scientific tests using multiple SW aquaria to carry out prolonged testing in SW and report their findings on them. Until such time we can only report our own experiences incidental or not either way you can't win because what we report is not scientifically correct for some.

[albertthiel]

Having surgery today so may not be on till at least tomorrow

 

Albert

[pal]

The oxydator works and it is very obvious to see if you use one for more than a week. My sand bed went from being covered in detritus as well as having some cyano/slime algae to looking like a brand new sand bed in only three days.

 

I had the same results.

[hypostatic]

The oxydator works and it is very obvious to see if you use one for more than a week. My sand bed went from being covered in detritus as well as having some cyano/slime algae to looking like a brand new sand bed in only three days. I have before and after pictures that are noticeably different and I changed nothing else about my tank or routine other than adding the oxydator. Clearly it was the oxydator providing the benefits, nothing else did this.

I had the same results.

 

I used mine for about a month. I used the mini in a 15G tank with 2 catalysts, using the solution that came with it. I saw no visible difference before and after.

 

It seems the oxydator affects different tanks differently. Understanding how it works is key to figuring out why it causes different effects in different tanks. Once you can parse out the differences between the tanks where it worked and where it didn't, then you can start to hypothesize as to how it really works.

 

For all those people that are either trying to prove or disprove that the oxydator works, what you really need is DATA. Find the people in this thread that have reported their experience. Collect data like tank size, stock load, nuisance issues (algae, cyano, etc), oxydator size, peroxide concentration, # catalysts used, how long the oxydator was used for, differences noticed after use, was use continued, how much they feed, etc, etc, etc...

 

All our tanks are like little words, that while similar, can be very different down to the level of microbes and molecules. So it's not uncommon for different people to have different experiences in their tanks. Only once you look through the data can anything really be said about the oxydator's effectiveness.

 

Having surgery today so may not be on till at least tomorrow

 

Albert

 

Good luck!! Best of wishes!

[CronicReefer]

Okay so this was the best picture I could find that showed the dirtiness of the sand bed and the cyano/slime algae issue I had as well. Before picture was taken February 28, three days before oxydator was put into tank. After picture was a total of six weeks apart but my sand bed has been clear since the first week of use. You can see all the cyano/slime algae is gone, bubble algae still and issue but I don't expect any change in that except from siphoning (I've left bubble algae buried under sand for a week and it was still there). There is also no detritus build up anywhere in the sand or on the rocks either compared to before and after. I haven't changed anything in my routine and I never siphon my sand bed or even stir it up. My dottyback/lobster/nessarius keep it well agitated so I don't disturb it for any reason (it is a DSB btw).

Before:

 

After:

 

Just for anyone who would like to see some some before and after pictures

[albertthiel]

Okay so this was the best picture I could find that showed the dirtiness of the sand bed and the cyano/slime algae issue I had as well. Before picture was taken February 28, three days before oxydator was put into tank. After picture was a total of six weeks apart but my sand bed has been clear since the first week of use. You can see all the cyano/slime algae is gone, bubble algae still and issue but I don't expect any change in that except from siphoning (I've left bubble algae buried under sand for a week and it was still there). There is also no detritus build up anywhere in the sand or on the rocks either compared to before and after. I haven't changed anything in my routine and I never siphon my sand bed or even stir it up. My dottyback/lobster/nessarius keep it well agitated so I don't disturb it for any reason (it is a DSB btw).

 

Before:

 

After:

 

Just for anyone who would like to see some some before and after pictures

Guess another positive experience

[metrokat]

Guess another positive experience

There are positive experiences, and a few not so positive ones.

Still doesn't change the fact that oxygen magically doesn't enter the water column from inside the oxydator jar through liquid thereby defying laws of gravity.

Peroxide dosing brings about the effects you see in the pictures above. This is documented by many users of peroxide.

The Oxydator is a peroxide doser (fact), albeit a carefully controlled ingenious one.

[albertthiel]

There are positive experiences, and a few not so positive ones.

Still doesn't change the fact that oxygen magically doesn't enter the water column from inside the oxydator jar through liquid thereby defying laws of gravity.

Peroxide dosing brings about the effects you see in the pictures above. This is documented by many users of peroxide.

The Oxydator is a peroxide doser (fact), albeit a carefully controlled ingenious one.

Yes but the reports on using direct peroxide dosing are just as anecdotal then as the ones on the Oxydator.

 

You cannot have it both ways Kat. Either in both cases what is reported is Fact or both are anecdotal

[metrokat]

Yes but the reports on using direct peroxide dosing are just as anecdotal then as the ones on the Oxydator.

 

You cannot have it both ways Kat. Either in both cases what is reported is Fact or both are anecdotal

Both are anecdotal Albert, not having it both ways at all.

Both the Oxydator and peroxide dosing appear to clean the sand and make the water clear.

I hope your confusion has been cleared.

[atoll]

 

Still doesn't change the fact that oxygen magically doesn't enter the water column from inside the oxydator jar through liquid thereby defying laws of gravity.

Nothing to do with the laws of gravity that is a red hearing. Oxygen is dissolved in the tanks water with some excess appearing as tiny bubbles some larger. The raise in Oxygen has been confirmed with oxygen test kits myself with a Dupla oxygen test kit and to some extent with the raise in redox both reported by many.

[albertthiel]

Both are anecdotal Albert, not having it both ways at all.

Both the Oxydator and peroxide dosing appear to clean the sand and make the water clear.

I hope your confusion has been cleared.

Not confused all Kat ?

Nothing to do with the laws of gravity that is a red hearing. Oxygen is dissolved in the tanks water with some excess appearing as tiny bubbles some larger. The raise in Oxygen has been confirmed with oxygen test kits myself with a Dupla oxygen test kit and to some extent with the raise in redox both reported by many.

Indeed

[metrokat]

You say this now

Nothing to do with the laws of gravity that is a red hearing. Oxygen is dissolved in the tanks water with some excess appearing as tiny bubbles some larger.

Because now you agree that the oxydator is a peroxide doser.

 

But previously said the Oxygen escaped by magic. Glad you figured that out.

 

My understanding is that the peroxide is broken down into water and oxygen by the catalyst in doing so puts the inside of the bell under pressure which forces the oxygen out of the small hole along with some water perhaps some peroxide escapes with it I don't know..

The oxygen escapes out of the vessel via a pin hole under pressure which is built up in it by the reaction.

So I don't understand what the problem is. You thought it magically dispensed oxygen, now you learnt it doses peroxide. Now you know.

Not confused all Kat

Good Albert. Your post stated I can't have it both ways. I'm glad you know differently.

[atoll]

You say this now

Correct at least we agree on that but I have reported such in the past you have obviously not read it. But then no matter what I have reported it has been brought into question.one way or another simply because I have reported on my experiences and observations without scientific evidence. I have always maintained oxygen is dissolved into the tanks water no change there. My tests were many years ago but I note oxygen test kits are relatively inexpensive to buy today so rather than take my word for it yet again why not buy one like the readily available Salifert one and do some testing yourself. That way you can confirm or deny my reports.

 

BTW I said magic as a tongue in cheek comment as if I would actually mean real magic lol

I still maintain the O2 is dispensed along with some peroxide as others have also stated hence the increase in O2 shown by O2 testing.

[albertthiel]

You say this now

Because now you agree that the oxydator is a peroxide doser.

 

But previously said the Oxygen escaped by magic. Glad you figured that out.

 

 

So I don't understand what the problem is. You thought it magically dispensed oxygen, now you learnt it doses peroxide. Now you know.

 

Good Albert. Your post stated I can't have it both ways. I'm glad you know differently.

Duh ?

[atoll]

Oxydator's supper oxidate the water with O2 now that is a fact.

[atoll]

Nice to have you back Kat for a while it looked as if you had spit the dummy and jumped ship along with a few more. .