Oxydator and Hydrogen peroxide.

[tibbsy07]

 

Well thats a tough analogy to support as skimmers perform the function of actively removing organics while adding oxygen to the water . In an enclosed system the benefits are pretty easy to ascertain.However the truth is you dont need a skimmer to have a beautiful healthy reef. While I dont think the oxydators function is gimicky at all it certainly isnt a necessity for most reefs.

 

For instance if you already have good water circulation in addition to a functioning skimmer and open the windows/doors to your home every few days your tanks inhabitants will have more than enough oxygen. So really what would be the point of adding an oxydator? Not sure. I personally would keep one on hand for emergencies as it does a great job of adding oxygen to the water without the need for electricity or user intervention. I also think it would also make alot of sense to use when transporting fish perhaps during a tank move. Secondly the other potential benefit to using an oxydator is clearer water but that may be hard for reefers to judge as many are using a skimmer and some other form of filtration such as activated carbon/purigen which already does wonders for water clarity. So for the majority of reefers out there with skimmers and activated carbon the benefits of adding one to their system aren't apparent.

 

I purchased a unit as I was much more interested in the trace peroxide released during the reaction and the effect it would have on the redox potential within my tank. But Im one of the very few who actually cares about that reaction. So far Ive inadvertently dumped over a cup of 6% peroxide during my initial testing with the unit and while some of my coral were obviously annoyed the majority were and remain totally unaffected by the ordeal. My algae,fish,invertebrates and major water parameters were unaffected as well. The only immediate change I documented was an increase in ORP (which is to be expected when you add an oxydizing agent such as peroxide). Now im willing to use the unit again since I have it working properly but the reality is the only thing one should expect when using this product is an increase in dissolved oxygen....nothing more.

 

Les you seem to take the use of this product very personal which I can understand as your experiences have been very positive but im one to believe many of the positive results you have experienced may have had nothing to do with the oxydator but rather your reefing husbandry. There isnt any data to prove that the unit does anything more than what it was designed to do and that is create oxygen.

Bingo.

So peroxide is pushed out into the ceramic dish under the plastic lid which seals down to the dish relatively tight. At that point what happens? Could organic levels be controlling the rate at which that is used up? Something is creating the bubbles we see and straight peroxide dosing doesn't create that. So it's doing more than just a peroxide doser.

 

In my case I think it's time to put it in a fresh bucket of water to see what happens

The ceramic dish has catalyst in it, too, which helps split the hydrogen peroxide into water and oxygen on a larger scale than the tiny catalysts inside the jar.

[albertthiel]

How the Oxydator works is very clear. Peroxide is catalyzed inside the reservoir. This creates pressure. This pressure pushes the remaining peroxide solution out the small hole in the bottom of the reservoir into the tank water. Regardless of your or anyone else's personal feelings on that, that is how it works and you need to come to terms with that.

 

That is how it works in the unit Ben .. but how does it affect conditions in the aquarium ? That is what we do NOT know

 

Albert

[atoll]

Bingo.

The ceramic dish has catalyst in it, too, which helps split the hydrogen peroxide into water and oxygen on a larger scale than the tiny catalysts inside the jar.

That being the case the Oxydator does indeed produce and expell O2 which can be seen exiting the Oxydator.

[tibbsy07]

That being the case the Oxydator does indeed produce and expell O2 which can be seen exiting the Oxydator.

Not in high enough amounts to see bubbles leaving. The oxygen that is released inside the reservoir by the small catalysts immediately goes up to the air space inside the jar and pushes out the more dense liquid below, peroxide. That then enters the dish where it is cleaved into water and oxygen and released into the water column as both the peroxide that is not cleaved due to the inefficiency of the reaction, and the oxygen and water that IS a result of the cleavage.

 

I'm really still not sure how there is confusion on this point. It is known, through discussion here, AND direct communications with the developer, that both peroxide AND oxygen enter the water column.

[atoll]

So would it be more accurate so say the bell deposits peroxide into the ceramic base which in turn converts the peroxide into O2 and H2O which is what we are seeing as tiny bubbles exiting the Oxydator? If so how much or what % peroxide (if any) leaves the Oxydator and how much is converted into O2 before it leaves it?

[tibbsy07]

 

That is how it works in the unit Ben .. but how does it affect conditions in the aquarium ? That is what we do NOT know

 

Albert

Right, and that's what we're discussing - or should be discussing. But instead we're still blabbing on about the reservoir and catalyst. We don't know what's happening IN the tank because of the oxydator and there is really no way for the hobbyist to figure that out scientifically. Rehype has done some fantastic measurements and has found that ORP does indeed go up, but in tanks with good husbandry, it doesn't seem to do anything.

So would it be more accurate so say the bell deposits peroxide into the ceramic base which in turn converts the peroxide into O2 and H2O which is what we are seeing as tiny bubbles exiting the Oxydator? If so how much or what % peroxide (if any) leaves the Oxydator and how much is converted into O2 before it leaves it?

It is more accurate to say that AND that some of the peroxide that leaves the jar and enters the ceramic dish isn't broken down because the reaction is not in a vacuum and is not 100% efficient, so it enters the water column along with the water and oxygen that is coming from the hydrolysis of the rest of the peroxide.

 

We don't know the concentrations, because that depends on your initial concentration and how many catalysts you are using and where in the reaction you measure - the longer the reservoir is in the tank, the more oxygen and water are in the jar and the less peroxide concentration. You'd have to take measurements repeatedly to figure that out.

[atoll]

R. Rehype has done some fantastic measurements and has found that ORP does indeed go up, but in tanks with good husbandry, it doesn't seem to do anything.

IME that depends on what % of peroxide you use and the amount of catalysts. I have pushed redox way above safe levels in the past by using a high % of peroxide. At the lower levels and in some thanks the redox may well stay at the tanks level it was before adding the Oxydator. Hence why I never suggest using anything more than 9% peroxide as it could (and I have seen it happen) have a negative effect on some corals at higher strengths.

[tibbsy07]

IME that depends on what % of peroxide you use and the amount of catalysts. I have pushed redox way above safe levels in the past by using a high % of peroxide. At the lower levels and in some thanks the redox may well stay at the tanks level it was before adding the Oxydator. Hence why I never suggest using anything more than 9% peroxide as it could (and I have seen it happen) have a negative effect on some corals at higher strengths.

But rehype wasn't using peroxide that was too crazy. Check his thread out. I think he was using 6-9%? And again, good husbandry seems to play a bigger role than an oxydator. They can't be required. Too many systems are healthy and happy without them. The ORP is limited by oxygen saturation (yes, supersaturation is real but only under certain conditions, and our tanks are not one of them). The overall flow of our tanks with high water turnover undergoes a lot of regular gas exchange. That should be adding plenty of oxygen to the system, and the oxydator simply can't add more. It may enter the water column but it is going to leave through the water's surface in a short amount of time.

[hypostatic]

I don't quite understand how the organics in the tank would have any effect. The peroxide inside the oxydator reacts with the catalyst regardless of any external forces and at the same rate (of course trailing off as the peroxide inside becomes diluted).

 

From a pure chemical equation balance, assuming things like temp and different oxydators are the same, the only thing that should really change the rate of the O₂ leaving the oxydator should be the current ammount of dissolved O₂ in the tank, and possibly other dissolved gasses.

 

Bingo.

The ceramic dish has catalyst in it, too, which helps split the hydrogen peroxide into water and oxygen on a larger scale than the tiny catalysts inside the jar.

 

Hmm to me it "looks" like the catalyst is doing most of the "splitting", and the ceramic is just acting as a nucleation site.

 

Agreed on the importance of figuring out if/how it affects our saltwater tanks. In order to do actually do this, someone would have to set up at least 2 "identical" tanks (doesn't even have to have animals in it), and see how the oxydator changes conditions from being in one tank. If you want to test that it's the same as just dosing disolved oxygen, you'd have to set up 3 tanks, one with nothing, and another dosing dissolved oxygen, and see if there are any differences. Then, you'd have to see if the dissolved oxygen tank results could be replicated with the oxydator tank.

[jedimasterben]

From a pure chemical equation balance, assuming things like temp and different oxydators are the same, the only thing that should really change the rate of the O₂ leaving the oxydator should be the current ammount of dissolved O₂ in the tank, and possibly other dissolved gasses.

O₂ gas does not leave the peroxide reservoir except for the little bit which gets dissolved into the water/peroxide mix inside, but once that reaches saturation, the rest of it stays trapped inside the reservoir. The only reaction happening on the inside of the reservoir (which is the dosing mechanism) is the peroxide with the catalyst (not taking into account any impurities in the water used for dilution, which should be negligible using distilled or deionized water like recommended).

[tibbsy07]

 

From a pure chemical equation balance, assuming things like temp and different oxydators are the same, the only thing that should really change the rate of the O₂ leaving the oxydator should be the current ammount of dissolved O₂ in the tank, and possibly other dissolved gasses.

 

 

Hmm to me it "looks" like the catalyst is doing most of the "splitting", and the ceramic is just acting as a nucleation site.

 

Agreed on the importance of figuring out if/how it affects our saltwater tanks. In order to do actually do this, someone would have to set up at least 2 "identical" tanks (doesn't even have to have animals in it), and see how the oxydator changes conditions from being in one tank. If you want to test that it's the same as just dosing disolved oxygen, you'd have to set up 3 tanks, one with nothing, and another dosing dissolved oxygen, and see if there are any differences. Then, you'd have to see if the dissolved oxygen tank results could be replicated with the oxydator tank.

Yeah, the ceramic is a nucleation point but it houses more catalyst than the catalyst inside the jar. It's in the patent that there is catalyst present IN the ceramic dish, too. Otherwise, the peroxide wouldn't be hydrolyzed much at all once it left the reservoir.

 

As for the experimental tanks idea, I've thought about that, too. But who has the time/money to set up such a system? Then to do it multiple times to ensure reproducibility and statistical reliability.

[albertthiel]

O₂ gas does not leave the peroxide reservoir except for the little bit which gets dissolved into the water/peroxide mix inside, but once that reaches saturation, the rest of it stays trapped inside the reservoir. The only reaction happening on the inside of the reservoir (which is the dosing mechanism) is the peroxide with the catalyst (not taking into account any impurities in the water used for dilution, which should be negligible using distilled or deionized water like recommended).

 

So what are the bubbles you see leaving the device then Ben if you say they are not oxygen ?

[jedimasterben]

So what are the bubbles you see leaving the device then Ben if you say they are not oxygen ?

You're missing what I am saying - the oxygen gas that is released from the peroxide catalyzed inside the reservoir is not escaping, nor can it ever escape unless you were to physically invert the reservoir. The bubbles you see are from oxygen released by the peroxide that is dripped into the system reacting with the tank water, however these bubbles you see aren't dissolved (otherwise you wouldn't see them) so they bubble up to surface.

[tibbsy07]

 

So what are the bubbles you see leaving the device then Ben if you say they are not oxygen ?

 

 

You're missing what I am saying - the oxygen gas that is released from the peroxide catalyzed inside the reservoir is not escaping, nor can it ever escape unless you were to physically invert the reservoir. The bubbles you see are from oxygen released by the peroxide that is dripped into the system reacting with the tank water, however these bubbles you see aren't dissolved (otherwise you wouldn't see them) so they bubble up to surface.

That's what I was saying earlier to atoll. The bubbles on the outside of the oxydator that are coming from the dish are the oxygen bubbles being produced in the ceramic dish by the hydrolysis of peroxide. The oxygen inside the jar stays there. If it didn't the oxydator wouldn't work in any shape or form.

[hypostatic]

You're missing what I am saying - the oxygen gas that is released from the peroxide catalyzed inside the reservoir is not escaping, nor can it ever escape unless you were to physically invert the reservoir. The bubbles you see are from oxygen released by the peroxide that is dripped into the system reacting with the tank water, however these bubbles you see aren't dissolved (otherwise you wouldn't see them) so they bubble up to surface.

 

True true -- duh, the bubbles are gas that are not in solution.

 

And yeah, I don't see anyone going through the time/money of doing this. Maybe the manufacturer, but they are inherently biased (they can't not be), so it would be tough to accept any results from them unless someone was able to reproduce them.

[metrokat]

Kat the headless reefer here. Ever since they offed my head, all I see are bubbles.

[albertthiel]

Kat the headless reefer here. Ever since they offed my head, all I see are bubbles.

 

[atoll]

The point is the bubbles are being formed inside the oxydator weather it be in the dish beaker or bell before they leave the oxydator. That is what I am saying and Tibbsy seems to have missed. Some bubbles are so fine as to be hard to notice. Granted few people have the time or will to set up experimental tanks to test just what the Oxydator's effects are on identical tanks etc however there are enough people using Oxydator's reporting good results using them as to warrant consideration ecen if some report negative recations. What is in question is why do they work for some and not others.At a guess it would seen to me something previously bound up in the water, rockwork or substrate is being released or being reactive with. Maybe one day we will know the reason until then we can go round in circles. In the meantime those who are convinced of the Oxydator's worth will continue to use them and the rest will consign them to wherever.

[albertthiel]

The point is the bubbles are being formed inside the oxydator weather it be in the dish beaker or bell before they leave the oxydator. That is what I am saying and Tibbsy seems to have missed. Some bubbles are so fine as to be hard to notice. Granted few people have the time or will to set up experimental tanks to test just what the Oxydator's effects are on identical tanks etc however there are enough people using Oxydator's reporting good results using them as to warrant consideration ecen if some report negative recations. What is in question is why do they work for some and not others.At a guess it would seen to me something previously bound up in the water, rockwork or substrate is being released or being reactive with. Maybe one day we will know the reason until then we can go round in circles. In the meantime those who are convinced of the Oxydator's worth will continue to use them and the rest will consign them to wherever.

 

Indeed Les and as we all know many of the additives and devices and paraphernalia we use on our aquariums work for most of the users but there are always some for which they do NOT work ... not unusual IME

 

Albert

[tibbsy07]

The point is the bubbles are being formed inside the oxydator weather it be in the dish beaker or bell before they leave the oxydator. That is what I am saying and Tibbsy seems to have missed. Some bubbles are so fine as to be hard to notice. Granted few people have the time or will to set up experimental tanks to test just what the Oxydator's effects are on identical tanks etc however there are enough people using Oxydator's reporting good results using them as to warrant consideration ecen if some report negative recations. What is in question is why do they work for some and not others.At a guess it would seen to me something previously bound up in the water, rockwork or substrate is being released or being reactive with. Maybe one day we will know the reason until then we can go round in circles. In the meantime those who are convinced of the Oxydator's worth will continue to use them and the rest will consign them to wherever.

I didn't miss that at all - I agree with you, and have been saying that - bubbles are being made inside the reservoir and outside. The ones inside are responsible for pushing the peroxide out into the ceramic dish/water. I never said there weren't any inside. The outside bubbles are coming the the break down of peroxide by the ceramic dish. The bubbles inside though are almost guaranteed to NOT be leaving the reservoir. There may be bubbles leaving the reservoir but they are very few - they have to be inside the reservoir otherwise the peroxide wouldn't be pushed out into the ceramic dish.

[metrokat]

[atoll]

What I have been saying for sometime now is the Oxydator not only puts peroxide into the water which is debatable but I believe O2 leaves the oxydator which is what some people have said is not true and it only puts peroxide into the water. Whichever way you look at it or how it does it that appears to be the case it's as simple as that but some want to side step that.

[Chrisl1976]

ok...can someone post the link to the patent if you have it. Either I missed it or this is the first I've seen that the ceramic dish contains catalyst material. That being the case, it is absolutely dosing O2 into the tank.....what the ratio of peroxide to O2 is still up in the air

[hypostatic]

I mean, one test if it actually "works" is to take it out of the tanks where they are assumed to "work", and if there's no noticeable difference then it's hard to say that it's actually doing anything

[Reefwiser]

Albert and Les wow what a thread. Good job defending such a simple device. People try to make simple things so complicated.