Oxydator and Hydrogen peroxide.

[hypostatic]

Ah thanks, I was looking at the poll information on my phone and I didn't see the detail.

 

15... is not a really large number lol.

 

Is the data all bunched together? Or is there any way you can see what the answers for each entry are so you can better parse the information?

 

 

 

Hi,

For everyone who missed it the first time round

H2O2 dosing is an established technique used by many reef keepers for a long time (both dosing H2O2 directly or dipping frags)

...

 

I believe part of the argument/conversation is that the oxydator is NOT just a slow peroxide doser (correct me if I'm wrong)

[albertthiel]

 

Hi,

For everyone who missed it the first time round

H2O2 dosing is an established technique used by many reef keepers for a long time (both dosing H2O2 directly or dipping frags)

Just because this doser is called an 'oxydator' it is still doing exactly the same thing. Dosing H2O2 into the tank water.

As pressure builds up in the Oxydator tank H2O2 is dripped into the water.

That is how its works, not magic.

 

The science behind peroxide dosing for algae control and water quality is no mystery and is well studied with literally hundreds and hundreds of scientific papers on the subject.

It is widely used in commercial applications for algae control and control of organics

Responses of marine macroalgae to hydrogen-peroxide stress

A.L Dummermuth, a, , U Karstenb, K.M Fischc, G.M Königc, C Wienckea

Combined Exposure to Hydrogen Peroxide and LightSelective Effects on Cyanobacteria, Green Algae, and Diatoms

Michaela Drábková Wim Admiraal and Blahoslav Maršálek

Cell death upon H₂O₂ induction in the unicellular green alga Micrasterias

A. Darehshouri^†, M. Affenzeller^† andcU. Lütz-Meind

Look on google scholar for hundreds of hours of more exhilarating reading.

 

This site also has some great reading on H2O2 and links to lots of scientific papers and information

 

Excellent, thanks Neill for that contribution

 

Albert

Ah thanks, I was looking at the poll information on my phone and I didn't see the detail.

 

15... is not a really large number lol.

 

Is the data all bunched together? Or is there any way you can see what the answers for each entry are so you can better parse the information?

 

 

 

I believe part of the argument/conversation is that the oxydator is NOT just a slow peroxide doser (correct me if I'm wrong)

 

If you look at the analysis details on your PC you will see the details for each of the test questions

 

Albert

[hypostatic]

Sorry, I mean something more detailed like this

 

[Maximus831]

I would like to know just one thing. Are the tiny bubbles coming out of the Oxydator, hydrogen peroxide or pure oxygen?

[albertthiel]

Sorry, I mean something more detailed like this

 

Yes look at it on our PC

I would like to know just one thing. Are the tiny bubbles coming out of the Oxydator, hydrogen peroxide or pure oxygen?

oxygen. Peroxide being a liquid would not come out as bubbles

[hypostatic]

Yes yes, I'm looking at it on my laptop now. All I'm seeing are images of the data ".png". Is there somewhere that I can click to get to the raw data? Like, this user responded "A B C", this user responded "X Y Z", for all 15 survey-takers?

[albertthiel]

Yes yes, I'm looking at it on my laptop now. All I'm seeing are images of the data ".png". Is there somewhere that I can click to get to the raw data? Like, this user responded "A B C", this user responded "X Y Z", for all 15 survey-takers?

 

Either Ben or Neill will have to answer that hypostatic

 

Albert

[Marc.The.Shark]

_{Neil, Ben,}

 

_{I recieved the survey email but didn't get around to filling it out in time for the survey to close, so I'll just record my obsevations here:}

 

_{I must note that I didn't have any glaring issues that I needed to resolve other than trying to stop algae on my acrylic every 2-3 days causing cleaning. I've caused a couple of scratches cleaning & it's a pain to get them out.}

 

_{Oxydator Mini - 1 catylst (lost the other one, was gonna try 2), used included 4.9% H2O2, used in 1st chanber of my sump. 1 month or so.}

 

_{Positives, or somewhat positives:}

_{-Acrylic cleaning went from 2-3 days to 4 or so days...slight improvement}

_{-somewhat clearer water...didn't have a huge issue with this in the first place.}

_{-No discernable adverse reaction from any coral...don't have any of the species sensitive to H2O2.}

 

_{Negatives, or possible negatives:}

_{-Cheato started to turn white...it's about 6" away from Oxydator in 2nd section of my sump. Still growing tho.}

_{-Had a frag plug of L.A. Laker Zoas crop up with Hair Algae/Byprosis? This plug had been in tank for a few months no issues. I took out & 3% H2O2 50/50 dipped & that resolved issue.}

 

_{My take on a positive or negative experience? I'd say Neutral at this point.}

 

_{This is my next step. I ordered a cleaner package from John. I've had some mysterious snail deaths, don't know if its from my two little hermits or if my stars are getting them. So gonna pull the Oxydator for a month & insert the cleaning crew & see what difference that makes. Also see if my Cheato colors back up.}

 

_{My other issue is that I don't have room in the display for the Oxydator. Only place that I can put it is before the Cheato, which is causing it to whiten, thus telling me that H2O2 is indeed getting into the water column and not breaking down right at the Oxydator. This is not a big surprise to me and not a huge issue, except for the placement of my Oxydator. If I could somehow figure out how to place it in the return pump chamber, I think that would solve that issue.}

 

_{Don't know if this helps or not, kinda inconclusive.}

[Rehype]

 

Hi,

For everyone who missed it the first time round

H2O2 dosing is an established technique used by many reef keepers for a long time (both dosing H2O2 directly or dipping frags)

Just because this doser is called an 'oxydator' it is still doing exactly the same thing. Dosing H2O2 into the tank water.

As pressure builds up in the Oxydator tank H2O2 is dripped into the water.

That is how its works, not magic.

 

The science behind peroxide dosing for algae control and water quality is no mystery and is well studied with literally hundreds and hundreds of scientific papers on the subject.

It is widely used in commercial applications for algae control and control of organics

Responses of marine macroalgae to hydrogen-peroxide stress

A.L Dummermuth, a, , U Karstenb, K.M Fischc, G.M Königc, C Wienckea

Combined Exposure to Hydrogen Peroxide and LightSelective Effects on Cyanobacteria, Green Algae, and Diatoms

Michaela Drábková Wim Admiraal and Blahoslav Maršálek

Cell death upon H₂O₂ induction in the unicellular green alga Micrasterias

A. Darehshouri^†, M. Affenzeller^† andcU. Lütz-Meind

Look on google scholar for hundreds of hours of more exhilarating reading.

 

This site also has some great reading on H2O2 and links to lots of scientific papers and information

 

 

Thanks for doing the survey neill. Unfortunately I didnt get a chance to fill it out but its probably better that way as my initial tests were incomplete. I plan to restart my trial tomorrow so I should have some data to contribute in the upcoming days.

 

One thing I noticed missing from the survey was if anyone recorded a measurable increase in oxygen after adding the oxydator. (Im assuming most havent tested that parameter) but I think it would really help to have some actual data from users going forward especially considering its the devices main claim to fame. I just did a few tests on my tank as a baseline and plan to include readings for the next few days/weeks after the oxydator is added.

[Neill.w]

Hi Hypostatic,

I will publish the raw data as a downloadable CSV file to (I sense you are an excell ninja? )

 

Yes I agree it is a small group size but given the relatively low number of people who have purchased them it is the best we can do at the moment. Hopefully it does show some trends. If any other company who sells them wants to send the same poll to their customer list I would be happy to facilitate that.

 

"I believe part of the argument/conversation is that the oxydator is NOT just a slow peroxide doser (correct me if I'm wrong)"

 

This exactly is the entire issue!

 

Just to recap what we now know

 

• Dr. Uwe Kohler the inventor of the device confirmed it is a low cost peroxide doser.
• The patent confirmed it is a perodide doser
• The instructions confirm it is a peroxide doser
• Rehype made a video showing it is a peroxide doser: https://youtu.be/7M54fmLTf90

 

Anyone who is saying otherwise at this point is ignoring the facts.

 

So does dosing peroxide increase oxygen levels?

 

When hydrogen peroxide breaks down it turns into water and oxygen so yes it is beyond a doubt releasing oxygen as it breaks down.

 

 

How much of this stays in the water in practical terms in a reef needs more investigation.

 

H2O2 for increasing oxygen levels in water is well researched for use in hydroponics however.

 

“Some horticulturalists and users of hydroponics advocate the use of weak hydrogen peroxide solution in watering solutions. Its spontaneous decomposition releases oxygen that enhances a plant's root development and helps to treat root rot (cellular root death due to lack of oxygen) and a variety of other pests.^{[64][65][66]”}

 

1. Fredrickson, Bryce. "Hydrogen Peroxide and Horticulture" (PDF). Retrieved 25 January 2009.

2. Ways to use hydrogen peroxide in the garden

3. Bhattarai SP, Su N, Midmore DJ; Su; Midmore (2005). "Oxygation Unlocks Yield Potentials of Crops in Oxygen-Limited Soil Environments". Advances in Agronomy. Advances in Agronomy 88: 313–377.doi:10.1016/S0065-2113(05)88008-3. ISBN 9780120007868.

 

 

So with all this in mind lets try and keep the scope of the debate to “does peroxide dosing help my tank?”

Because we know beyond any reasonable doubt now the Oxydator is a low cost peroxide doser, nothing else.

[Neill.w]

 

 

Thanks for doing the survey neill. Unfortunately I didnt get a chance to fill it out but its probably better that way as my initial tests were incomplete. I plan to restart my trial tomorrow so I should have some data to contribute in the upcoming days.

 

One thing I noticed missing from the survey was if anyone recorded a measurable increase in oxygen after adding the oxydator. (Im assuming most havent tested that parameter) but I think it would really help to have some actual data from users going forward especially considering its the devices main claim to fame. I just did a few tests on my tank as a baseline and plan to include readings for the next few days/weeks after the oxydator is added.

 

Thanks for the reply Rehype,

Yes I agree this needs to be tested out but most people do not have an O2 test kit handy so it was not in the survey.

Looking forward to seeing your results!

Cheers

[hypostatic]

Well, I wouldn't say that I am an "excel ninja" lol, but I am fairly proficient. I'm a scientist, and excel is one tool you can use to look through data sets and find connections and meaning. At the very least it's a great tool for organizing things lol

[Rehype]

 

Thanks for the reply Rehype,

Yes I agree this needs to be tested out but most people do not have an O2 test kit handy so it was not in the survey.

Looking forward to seeing your results!

Cheers

 

So heres my oxygen readings before and after adding the oxydator. Ill mention that I didnt really expect the oxydator to increase my oxygen levels as I already have excellent surface agitation, a protein skimmer and also keep the windows to my home open at least a few hours a day....with that said heres readings before and after adding the oxydator (I tested 3 times)

 

4/26 Before adding the oxydator

 

 

 

 

4/29 The oxydator was added on the 27th The test was performed again 72 hours after adding the oxydator.

 

 

 

 

As expected no discernible changes. My tank salinity is 35ppt and the temperature at the time was 78 degrees so the dissolved oxygen levels should be around 6.64ppm which looks right in line with the results. The average reefer who typically has a good powerhead, protein skimmer and can open the windows to their place a few hours a day will have little to no issues keeping their oxygen levels at the proper level. However if you lacked these (ie power outage) the oxydator would be a viable option.

[Neill.w]

Thanks Rehype!

 

 

"H̶o̶w̶ ̶m̶u̶c̶h̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶y̶s̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶w̶a̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶p̶r̶a̶c̶t̶i̶c̶a̶l̶ ̶t̶e̶r̶m̶s̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶a̶ ̶r̶e̶e̶f̶ ̶n̶e̶e̶d̶s̶ ̶m̶o̶r̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶v̶e̶s̶t̶i̶g̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶.̶"

I think your results appear to take care of that last question. As you mentioned your results show it has reached the expected maximum saturation given the temperature and salinity, nothing more.

 

 

 

So, it appears it is a simple peroxide doser and while it undoubtedly releases oxygen it does not appear to achieve super saturation as some mentioned.

[Rehype]

Thanks Rehype!

 

 

"H̶o̶w̶ ̶m̶u̶c̶h̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶y̶s̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶w̶a̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶p̶r̶a̶c̶t̶i̶c̶a̶l̶ ̶t̶e̶r̶m̶s̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶a̶ ̶r̶e̶e̶f̶ ̶n̶e̶e̶d̶s̶ ̶m̶o̶r̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶v̶e̶s̶t̶i̶g̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶.̶"

I think your results appear to take care of that last question. As you mentioned your results show it has reached the expected maximum saturation given the temperature and salinity, nothing more.

 

chart.PNG

 

 

So, it appears it is a simple peroxide doser and while it undoubtedly releases oxygen it does not appear to achieve super saturation as some mentioned.

 

Np neil glad I could provide some actual data.

[atoll]

Thanks Rehype!

 

 

"H̶o̶w̶ ̶m̶u̶c̶h̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶y̶s̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶w̶a̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶p̶r̶a̶c̶t̶i̶c̶a̶l̶ ̶t̶e̶r̶m̶s̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶a̶ ̶r̶e̶e̶f̶ ̶n̶e̶e̶d̶s̶ ̶m̶o̶r̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶v̶e̶s̶t̶i̶g̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶.̶"

I think your results appear to take care of that last question. As you mentioned your results show it has reached the expected maximum saturation given the temperature and salinity, nothing more.

 

chart.PNG

 

 

So, it appears it is a simple peroxide doser and while it undoubtedly releases oxygen it does not appear to achieve super saturation as some mentioned.

Wouldn't that depend on a whole lot of other criteria's like the model of Oxydator used, the % of peroxide used, he number of catalysts used, the amount of DOC and cleanliness of the water to start with?

I have just bought a Salifert oxygen text kit and will do some tests in the next few days both with and without the Oxydator running as when I last did tests many years ago I achieved significantly different levels of dissolved O2 in a 140 gallon well stocked tank using Oxydator's with varying amounts of peroxide using a Dupla O2 test kit and a redox meter and achieved supper oxygen saturation. .

[metrokat]

ReHype thank you for the test results.

[albertthiel]

Wouldn't that depend on a whole lot of other criteria's like the model of Oxydator used, the % of peroxide used, he number of catalysts used, the amount of DOC and cleanliness of the water to start with?

I have just bought a Salifert oxygen text kit and will do some tests in the next few days both with and without the Oxydator running as when I last did tests many years ago I achieved significantly different levels of dissolved O2 in a 140 gallon well stocked tank using Oxydator's with varying amounts of peroxide using a Dupla O2 test kit and a redox meter and achieved supper oxygen saturation. .

 

Yes keep us posted Les

 

Thanks

[Rehype]

ReHype thank you for the test results.

 

Your welcome

Wouldn't that depend on a whole lot of other criteria's like the model of Oxydator used, the % of peroxide used, he number of catalysts used, the amount of DOC and cleanliness of the water to start with?

I have just bought a Salifert oxygen text kit and will do some tests in the next few days both with and without the Oxydator running as when I last did tests many years ago I achieved significantly different levels of dissolved O2 in a 140 gallon well stocked tank using Oxydator's with varying amounts of peroxide using a Dupla O2 test kit and a redox meter and achieved supper oxygen saturation. .

 

Look forward to your test results

[atoll]

How does this sound.

Record tank size and equipment used in my setup along with temp PH, nitrate, phosphate levels.

 

1/ Remove my Oxydator model "A" at least 2 hours before tests start. Do first O2 test and record.

2/ After 2 hours replace Oxydator with 6% peroxide and 2 catalysts as I usually run it. Record O2 levels after 30mins.

3/ leave for 2 hours test O2 levels.

4/ After 2 hours increase % of peroxide to 9% using 2 catalysts. Test O2 levels after 30mins. .

5/ Depending on results above either stop O2 testing or increase the % of peroxide to 11% the strongest % I have. Test O2 levels.

 

If I record significant differences in O2 levels I won't increase my % of peroxide to 11% as I will be pushing it towards limits I have used and recorded before.

 

Here are the specs of my tank.

 

Aquareef300 tank with sump approx 340ltrs

Oxydator model A with 6% peroxide and 2 catalysts.

Deltec in sump SC1350 skimmer.

Santa Monica HOG2 alage scrubber attached to sump with very slow growing algae. .

approx 6 ltrs of Siporax in sump filtration media.

Deltec FR 509 reactor running TMC pellets.

TMC 300 calcium reactor

Jebao DCT600 return pump to tank with a tee off to reactor running level 8 out of 10 on power.

2 duckbill exiting just surface outlets from pump.

Gyre FX150 pump on 20 % short pulse mode.

Lighting is an Evergrow IT2080 V2 pro reef full spectrum unit. .

 

I have a lot of water movement all over my tank as you can guess. Gas exchange is not an issue.

Lots of live rock well stocked with corals SPS soft and LPS. 12 fish mostly small biggest being a Yellow tang of approx 3" I also have 2 bubble tip nems so reluctant to go to 11% peroxide but we shall see as above.

Hopefully that should cover it.

 

This will take up quite a bit of my time but I will try and do the tests tomorrow all being well.

 

Anything anybody think I should do different?

[tibbsy07]

 

So heres my oxygen readings before and after adding the oxydator. Ill mention that I didnt really expect the oxydator to increase my oxygen levels as I already have excellent surface agitation, a protein skimmer and also keep the windows to my home open at least a few hours a day....with that said heres readings before and after adding the oxydator (I tested 3 times)

 

4/26 Before adding the oxydator

 

 

 

 

4/29 The oxydator was added on the 27th The test was performed again 72 hours after adding the oxydator.

 

 

 

 

As expected no discernible changes. My tank salinity is 35ppt and the temperature at the time was 78 degrees so the dissolved oxygen levels should be around 6.64ppm which looks right in line with the results. The average reefer who typically has a good powerhead, protein skimmer and can open the windows to their place a few hours a day will have little to no issues keeping their oxygen levels at the proper level. However if you lacked these (ie power outage) the oxydator would be a viable option.

 

Was referred to this particular post so I decided to respond! Thanks for the data rehype. You don't happen to have an ORP probe or anything do you? It'd be nice to see a measure of the oxygen over time with and without the oxydator. Given that the oxygen is already saturated in the water in our tanks with movement and such, it seems that the oxydator really only helps maintain that same level and as you said, would only really benefit tanks that lack the ability to turn over water. Awesome work!

 

Thanks Rehype!

 

 

"H̶o̶w̶ ̶m̶u̶c̶h̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶y̶s̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶w̶a̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶p̶r̶a̶c̶t̶i̶c̶a̶l̶ ̶t̶e̶r̶m̶s̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶a̶ ̶r̶e̶e̶f̶ ̶n̶e̶e̶d̶s̶ ̶m̶o̶r̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶v̶e̶s̶t̶i̶g̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶.̶"

I think your results appear to take care of that last question. As you mentioned your results show it has reached the expected maximum saturation given the temperature and salinity, nothing more.

 

chart.PNG

 

 

So, it appears it is a simple peroxide doser and while it undoubtedly releases oxygen it does not appear to achieve super saturation as some mentioned.

Ben and I have discussed this exact chart before! And I think we referenced it here a ways back. Good to see more data involved.

[atoll]

Good to have you back Tibbsy perhaps you will be referred back when I publish my results or check them out anyway. Wish I had a redox meter but alas no more as I sold the one I had a Pinpoint one about 15 years ago and a decent one costs.

[Chrisl1976]

off topic......who are you getting your peroxide from online? Ebay? I need to order some more.

[albertthiel]

off topic......who are you getting your peroxide from online? Ebay? I need to order some more.

 

eBay Chris

[hypostatic]

How does this sound.

Record tank size and equipment used in my setup along with temp PH, nitrate, phosphate levels.

 

1/ Remove my Oxydator model "A" at least 2 hours before tests start. Do first O2 test and record.

2/ After 2 hours replace Oxydator with 6% peroxide and 2 catalysts as I usually run it. Record O2 levels after 30mins.

3/ leave for 2 hours test O2 levels.

4/ After 2 hours increase % of peroxide to 9% using 2 catalysts. Test O2 levels after 30mins. .

5/ Depending on results above either stop O2 testing or increase the % of peroxide to 11% the strongest % I have. Test O2 levels.

 

I would wait a little more between tests than 2 hrs -- maybe like 24-48hrs so the system has more time to stabilize and level out. A 2hr vs 24hr test would be good for seeing how quickly the oxydator can affect a system like yours.