Kat's Ol' Max

[metrokat]

The amount of bacteria that are good in the system versus the amount that are bad is pretty high. The peroxide may kill both to the same level, but losing a log or so bacteria from having 10¹⁰ bacteria (just random numbers) in a system compared to losing a log or so from 10⁵ bacteria (again random, but trying to show differences between the amount that's good versus bad) is a major difference - especially with subsequent doses and water changes. You've selected for an environment that favors the good over the bad, given the water change that removed much of the volatile organic compounds and phalates, so you'll favor doubling and growth of the good bacteria. Yo do that a couple of times, and sure you may have only like 10⁸ or 10⁹ (again, random but based on loss and growth of good bacteria) good bacteria left, but you've eliminated almost all of the bad and have put the tank back in prime position to stabilize. There may be a slight peak of nitrates or something, but I wouldn't expect that too much.

 

Dang that got extra nerdy, real quick.

Not that I understood a word of what you said but I wish there was a better descriptive of Dr Tims products which have all the good bacterial strains to right every wrong in the home aquarium. Should I have added microbacter& to combat nitrates, dosed liquid carbon, I wish I knew. Did you see the post by Mr Anderson where he was wondering if people would be interested in a DNA sequencing of the bacteria in their tank?

[Veng]

I used a very very small dose but even with that, zoanthids closed up in a second. SPS looked pissed off, LPS were okay except for the duncan.

What dose did you use?

 

The amount of bacteria that are good in the system versus the amount that are bad is pretty high. The peroxide may kill both to the same level, but losing a log or so bacteria from having 10¹⁰ bacteria (just random numbers) in a system compared to losing a log or so from 10⁵ bacteria (again random, but trying to show differences between the amount that's good versus bad) is a major difference - especially with subsequent doses and water changes. You've selected for an environment that favors the good over the bad, given the water change that removed much of the volatile organic compounds and phalates, so you'll favor doubling and growth of the good bacteria. Yo do that a couple of times, and sure you may have only like 10⁸ or 10⁹ (again, random but based on loss and growth of good bacteria) good bacteria left, but you've eliminated almost all of the bad and have put the tank back in prime position to stabilize. There may be a slight peak of nitrates or something, but I wouldn't expect that too much.

 

Dang that got extra nerdy, real quick.

It wasn't that nerdy for nerdy stuff. I'm not really sure of the relative concentrations of the good vs the bad. I also forgot that bacteria growth rates are all log functions. That alone really negates a lot of the concerns I had.

[tibbsy07]

Not that I understood a word of what you said but I wish there was a better descriptive of Dr Tims products which have all the good bacterial strains to right every wrong in the home aquarium. Should I have added microbacter& to combat nitrates, dosed liquid carbon, I wish I knew. Did you see the post by Mr Anderson where he was wondering if people would be interested in a DNA sequencing of the bacteria in their tank?

Peroxide kills the bad bacteria and good bacteria, but there are way more good bacteria. If you kill 500 people in an army of 2000 and 500 people in the other army of 20000, who's got the actual disadvantage? Following that up, the water changes remove the ability of the bad bacteria to use the junk that caused the problem, giving an advantage to the good bacteria as the removal of the junk doesn't affect them anyways. Bacteria grow in exponential phase until they basically run out of nutrients and then they stay at one level of growth, called stationary phase, where they die and grow at the same rate thus they stay the same number. By removing some of their numbers and providing more nutrients in to them, in the form of nitrates, etc., you put them back into serious growth mode so you'll replenish the numbers pretty quickly.

 

I didn't see the post by Mr. Anderson - sequencing is expensive, though, at least for most folks. It costs about $2000 for 4 strains here at our facility (it's like 1100 for one and then a few hundred for the other 3, as once it's all set up it's not much work to add in more strains). He might be able to do some work on it, but sequencing isn't generally available to the public and the rates for non-University groups would likely be more. I'd be willing to bet Dr. Tim has a pretty good idea of what's going on in terms of the microflora of the reef.

 

I read some of Dr. Tim's website stuff and it looks ok. His probiotic thing is a waste, in my opinion, unless your system is constantly in flux. Probiotics only work if they can take hold in the tank, but if you already have an established system, they won't be able to grow as much. Sort of like 10 people trying to rent an apartment in a building that already has 198 of 200 places filled - only 2 people will be able to get a place.

 

The One and Only Live Nitrifying product will probably help a tank, but I wouldn't add it and then immediately add fish. Bacteria are amazing and most will grow quickly given the opportunity, but many do actually grow slowly. I'd still expect a cycle, even if it's shorter by a few days or weeks. It might work pretty well, but if you use it, I'd make sure that the organisms are still alive... Who knows when the stuff was bottled, whether something went wrong, etc. I'd just do it the old-fashioned way.

[metrokat]

Peroxide kills the bad bacteria and good bacteria, but there are way more good bacteria. If you kill 500 people in an army of 2000 and 500 people in the other army of 20000, who's got the actual disadvantage? Following that up, the water changes remove the ability of the bad bacteria to use the junk that caused the problem, giving an advantage to the good bacteria as the removal of the junk doesn't affect them anyways. Bacteria grow in exponential phase until they basically run out of nutrients and then they stay at one level of growth, called stationary phase, where they die and grow at the same rate thus they stay the same number. By removing some of their numbers and providing more nutrients in to them, in the form of nitrates, etc., you put them back into serious growth mode so you'll replenish the numbers pretty quickly.

 

I didn't see the post by Mr. Anderson - sequencing is expensive, though, at least for most folks. It costs about $2000 for 4 strains here at our facility (it's like 1100 for one and then a few hundred for the other 3, as once it's all set up it's not much work to add in more strains). He might be able to do some work on it, but sequencing isn't generally available to the public and the rates for non-University groups would likely be more. I'd be willing to bet Dr. Tim has a pretty good idea of what's going on in terms of the microflora of the reef.

 

I read some of Dr. Tim's website stuff and it looks ok. His probiotic thing is a waste, in my opinion, unless your system is constantly in flux. Probiotics only work if they can take hold in the tank, but if you already have an established system, they won't be able to grow as much. Sort of like 10 people trying to rent an apartment in a building that already has 198 of 200 places filled - only 2 people will be able to get a place.

 

The One and Only Live Nitrifying product will probably help a tank, but I wouldn't add it and then immediately add fish. Bacteria are amazing and most will grow quickly given the opportunity, but many do actually grow slowly. I'd still expect a cycle, even if it's shorter by a few days or weeks. It might work pretty well, but if you use it, I'd make sure that the organisms are still alive... Who knows when the stuff was bottled, whether something went wrong, etc. I'd just do it the old-fashioned way.

 

I ordered Dr Tim's Waste-away. Mr Anderson is a professor and does DNA sequencing as a matter of fact. Here's the thread.

 

What dose did you use?

2 TBSP

[tibbsy07]

I just read his thread, super cool. I'm such a nerd!

 

Waste-away should be ok, same with the refresh, as those are more about water treatment and removal of waste, but that probiotic stuff? Save your money.

 

I tell you what, if my seeding experiment goes well and I'm actually able to freeze stocks of my reef flora, I'll send you a vial of my frozen stocks if you ever need to start a new tank.

[Veng]

What concentration was the bottle of H202?

[tibbsy07]

What concentration was the bottle of H202?

If it's store bought it's probably 3%

[Veng]

I figure it is, but I hate to assume. It sounds like a very reasonable ~0.5ml/Gal dosing.

[metrokat]

yes store bought. 3%.

I only put in 2 tbsp, not per gallon.

[Veng]

Yes, 2 tbsp = ~29ml, you're tank & sump is ~60gallons total water volume, thus 29/60 is ~0.5ml/Gallon @ 3% concentration or .02ml/Gallon H202

[metrokat]

oh. I need to have y'all on speed dial.

[Veng]

He's the microbiologist not me. I'm just an engineer.

[metrokat]

Speed dial 1: Zeph for reef pillow talk

Speed dial 2: Piggy for any OMG WHAT SHOULD I DO

Speed Dial 3: KG for when I go to Home Depot

Speed Dial 4: Serenity Reef for the Apex

Speed Dial 5: Veng for units of measurement

Speed Dial 6: for Tibbsy for advice on bacteria

Speed Dial 7: Ian for ALK/CALC problems

Speed Dial 8: Benny for everything else I haven't covered yet

[Veng]

Speed Dail 9: Tailes for desert!

[metrokat]

GOOD ONE!

[Kylebeano]

I tried peroxide when my slime started showing up. I did direct treatment to affected areas on the rock during water changes, taking rocks and plugs out and doing dips with h2o2, and doses. Didn't show any beneficial change to the stuff in my tank. I'll be checking in to see how dr Tim's product works for you, so please keep us updated

[metrokat]

I tried peroxide when my slime started showing up. I did direct treatment to affected areas on the rock during water changes, taking rocks and plugs out and doing dips with h2o2, and doses. Didn't show any beneficial change to the stuff in my tank. I'll be checking in to see how dr Tim's product works for you, so please keep us updated

Did you try any other additives? Carbon dosing, microbacter7, zeobak, ?

[Kylebeano]

No, none of that. Just chemipure-E and lots of water changes. And I decreased photoperiod in case it is an algae. Dosing anything in a 4g makes me uneasy. It took me a while to get the balls to put 7 drops of b-ionic in it

[metrokat]

I understand. Do you run a skimmer?

[tibbsy07]

Speed dial 1: Zeph for reef pillow talk

Speed dial 2: Piggy for any OMG WHAT SHOULD I DO

Speed Dial 3: KG for when I go to Home Depot

Speed Dial 4: Serenity Reef for the Apex

Speed Dial 5: Veng for units of measurement

Speed Dial 6: for Tibbsy for advice on bacteria

Speed Dial 7: Ian for ALK/CALC problems

Speed Dial 8: Benny for everything else I haven't covered yet

 

Speed Dail 9: Tailes for desert!

[Kylebeano]

I understand. Do you run a skimmer?

Lol, nah. Just a fuge

[tailes]

LOL you guys are silly! And I'm available for dessert dates now!

 

And guess what!! My new wallet and business card holder came in.

[metrokat]

You can flash me the wallet when we meet. I did say flash the WALLET. Before the boys are all over this.

[tailes]

LMAO!!! You totally know they'll ignore that and insert whatever their lascivious minds come up with.

[metrokat]

FLASH ME TAILES!

(there)