Oxydator and Hydrogen peroxide.

[CJJon]

Oxydator's supper oxidate the water with O2 now that is a fact.

 

OK, here is a question: How much potential for O2 is there bound in the H2O2? If you liberate all the O2 from the H2O2, would it be enough to super oxidate (saturate) the water? One milliliter of 6% solution of H2O2 will produce 20 ml of O2 if completely decomposed. How much O2 is needed to super saturate 1 gallon of salty water? What rate would that volume have to flow to keep up the saturation point?

 

Simply put, does the device, given the available amount of O2 in the H2O2, have enough O2 volume and flow to raise the DO levels to the super saturation point? (+110%?)

[albertthiel]

 

OK, here is a question: How much potential for O2 is there bound in the H2O2? If you liberate all the O2 from the H2O2, would it be enough to super oxidate (saturate) the water? One milliliter of 6% solution of H2O2 will produce 20 ml of O2 if completely decomposed. How much O2 is needed to super saturate 1 gallon of salty water? What rate would that volume have to flow to keep up the saturation point?

 

Simply put, does the device, given the available amount of O2 in the H2O2, have enough O2 volume and flow to raise the DO levels to the super saturation point? (+110%?)

Saturation and supersaturation depend on temp, pH, s.g. Etc so it is hard to answer your question

[Chrisl1976]

Kat, if there is catalyst material in the ceramic base as there said to be, it is easily releasing O2 into the tank. I would guess the first catalyst inside the bottle is acting as a dosing control for the ceramic base. The base is then converting the peroxide that is being pushed out of the bottle into O2

 

Now to figure out how much your organic levels in your water affect that rate. Two units and I'm still going through an entire bottle in 3-4 days

[atoll]

As well as the things Albert points out that you have to consider the size of the aquarium number of catalysts % of peroxide used the amount of organics in the water all need to be taken into account. However when I tested with an oxygen test kit and redox meter I was certainly able to achieve super oxygen saturation. This was many years ago however so some further testing esp with an oxygen test kit would be a good idea.

[albertthiel]

As well as the things Albert points out that you have to consider the size of the aquarium number of catalysts % of peroxide used the amount of organics in the water all need to be taken into account. However when I tested with an oxygen test kit and redox meter I was certainly able to achieve super oxygen saturation. This was many years ago however so some further testing esp with an oxygen test kit would be a good idea.

Indeed as Les writes many factors have to be taken into account

[CJJon]

Kat, if there is catalyst material in the ceramic base as there said to be, it is easily releasing O2 into the tank. I would guess the first catalyst inside the bottle is acting as a dosing control for the ceramic base. The base is then converting the peroxide that is being pushed out of the bottle into O2

 

Now to figure out how much your organic levels in your water affect that rate. Two units and I'm still going through an entire bottle in 3-4 days

 

Indeed, the base is supposed to be a catalyst. Although, the decomposition of the H2O2 is not instantaneous nor complete, so some H2O2 is most likely getting past the base catalyst and is getting into the water column.

 

I'm not sure organics in the water would have anything to do with the rate H2O2 flows out of the gadget. Would that not be dependant upon the number of catalysts only? Organics might have something to do with DO in the water, but the rate of flow would be constant out of the unit into the water.

[atoll]

 

Indeed, the base is supposed to be a catalyst. Although, the decomposition of the H2O2 is not instantaneous nor complete, so some H2O2 is most likely getting past the base catalyst and is getting into the water column.

 

Agreed, However what % is released from the Oxydator as O2 and what % is released as H2O2? Even if 50% 9as an example) H2O2 is released into the water column how quickly would that be converted into O2 and H2O is base components? I would suspect at the % we are using very quickly but that would depend on organics etc etc etc in the tank water I would suspect.

 

I'm not sure organics in the water would have anything to do with the rate H2O2 flows out of the gadget.

 

I fail to see the relationship also as I have stated in the past on here.

 

Would that not be dependant upon the number of catalysts only? Organics might have something to do with DO in the water, but the rate of flow would be constant out of the unit into the water.

 

I agree with you but also the % of H2O2 being used as the higher the % the quicker it is used it's not just down to the number of catalysts.

[jedimasterben]

Organics in the water cannot have an effect on the rate of the reaction inside the peroxide reservoir. The only external influence on that reaction can be temperature.

 

 

0% of what is released from the peroxide reservoir is O₂. O₂ is liberated when peroxide decays, and the oxygen liberated by the reaction inside the peroxide reservoir stays inside the peroxide reservoir. There is no way around this.

[metrokat]

Kat, if there is catalyst material in the ceramic base as there said to be, it is easily releasing O2 into the tank. I would guess the first catalyst inside the bottle is acting as a dosing control for the ceramic base. The base is then converting the peroxide that is being pushed out of the bottle into O2

 

Now to figure out how much your organic levels in your water affect that rate. Two units and I'm still going through an entire bottle in 3-4 days

Agreed on this Chris. The only thing I disagree on is Atolls magical theory that O2 is pushed out from inside the jar, through the liquid at the bottom of the jar - defying gravity- and into the tank.

 

Peroxide is pushed out. Not O2. The peroxide reacts with

1) either the water outside the jar and/or

2) the ceramic base which may have a catalyst in it

 

at which point is breaks down and you see bubbles.

[NorthGaHillbilly]

I am not trying to sell anybody anything but I understand what you mean. I have experimented with hydrogen peroxide on and of for the last 25 years or so. I don't have a lot of scientific information as I am not a scientist just a simple reef aquarist. When it comes to such things I can only point to the results via my tank and try and answer the best I can the questions posed. I can point to others who use oxydators as I have said above.

Oxydators are not new and have been around for many years and used extensively in Europe. I will try and answer any questions the best I can. I could tell you how I have used oxydators in the past to help cure cyno but you will no doubt want evidence, in what form I am unsure and am unsue I will be able to provide it in some scientific way. I only have my experiences to relate and offer.

 

 

Well I have been goging on about Oxydators for over 30 years and at last mainly due to Albert and me sending him first Oxydator to try together with Albert seeing for himself and not only reporting on it but writing about it in his book people are finally seeing the light. Until Albert became a convert, seeing the results for himself and promoting it I was something of a loan voice in reefkeeping circles. BTW I don't work to Shoting, any LFS, sell Oxydators or have ever made any money or even had a freebie off anybody although some people find that hard to believe.

 

 

Sorry I have been away watching what you over there may call the ball game.

 

I will try and answer the questions poised above as best I can but you have to understand I am a simple hobbyist not a scientist.

 

I have been using Oxydator's for around 25 years on various aquariums both reef and fish only.

I have experimented with up to and including 17% peroxide and various number of Oxydator catalysts. Please do NOT try it. The highest percentage of peroxide I would advise is 9% at most. The reason I pushed higher the peroxide percentage was to find the limit and i most certainly did and as I found out nems are the first to react negatively if you over do the peroxide and or catalysts.

 

I have kept various shrimps in my set ups and never had a problem keeping them with Oxydators.

When I was carrying out my experiments on 2 tanks I was fortunate to have a lab quality redox meter which in those days was analog not digital. I have the results of those experiments in my attic/roof space but I have to move a lot of stuff just to get access to the attic. I will do one day.

I never had and still don't have access to an oxygen meter but if you would like to pop over to the UK with yours your very welcome to

I have known cyno to be cured with an Oxydator many times, can I prove it scientifically no.

 

I only have my eyes and my experience using Oxydator's for 25 years to call on but what I have found and reported on has been backed up time and time again by other hobbyists in the UK and in the last year as Oydator's have become more popular in the US mainly due to Albert endorsing them.

 

You often find the glass of your aquarium needs cleaning far less as Albert and others have found.

Your aquarium water will become crystal clear in a short period after installation of an Oxydator.

 

I have witnessed newly introduced fish gasping on the bottom of tanks due to stress brought round by the use of an Oxydator (think of the Oxydator as putting an oxygen mask on the fish) Can I prove it scientifically no as said above.

 

Many Seahorse keepers and indeed both home and professional breeders here in the UK use Oxydator's in their tanks even fry tanks and report increased survival rates.

 

If I haven't covered all the questions then sorry please let me know and I will do my best as a simple hobbyist to answer them but if you are looking for laboratory and or scientific proof sorry I am not the person to provide such.

 

Thanks

Les.

 

 

I only have my experience using Oxydator's for over 30 years to call upon. What matters to me is what I observed over those years using Oxydator's in various marine aquariums. I have never seen any tank or reports from the many friends I know of using Oxydators of them not performing as they did early days. Theory is great but often it does not measure up to actual experience. Sometime theory bears out what I report sometimes it does not.

 

I don't have my own scientific evidence of much of what I have been observing and reporting on Oxydator's as some have requested on here and other forums. However I don't just repeat what I have been told or read on the net I only report what I have found through personal experience. If that is not enough for some people I am sorry. What I do know much of what I have reported has been replicated and reported by many others. Albert here is but one of them and I am grateful for his open mindedness and willingness to try an Oxydator when I sent him his first Oxydator as they were not available in the USA.

 

Few people took any notice of what I was reporting as I had little kudos within the reefkeeping world.After all has some have said "if Oxydator's work as I report why aren't we all using them" Why indeed?

 

 

That was always my understanding from day one well around 10,950 days. My understanding is that the peroxide is broken down into water and oxygen by the catalyst in doing so puts the inside of the bell under pressure which forces the oxygen out of the small hole along with some water perhaps some peroxide escapes with it I don't know.. I have Xenia which we are told is very reactive to hydrogen peroxide in the tank and yet my Xenia is close to my Oxydator and there is no negative effect on it at all. The only time I have noticed any negative effects using an Oxydator was when I pushed my tank beyond the limits of my nems when I sued 17% peroxide with 2 catalysts in my model "A" . One if my nems turned itself inside out but quickly recovered when I removed the Oxydator. That is why I recommend no more than 9% peroxide and recommend 6% as a norm.

 

 

After 30 my years using Oxydator's on at least 9 tanks in that time and observing nothing but good results while using them along with that of a number of friends who use them then reading some of the replies on here I have finally lost the will to live. I will say again I have nothing to give but my experience in using Oxydator's in reef tanks and fish only (mostly reef tanks just one fish only tank) I have related my experiences and the odd theory but I prefer actual experience over theory. Oxydator's are not a here today gone tomorrow thing and the science behind them is solid. I will leave you all, well some of you to your theory's and nit picking. If Oxydator's work for you thats great if not shame but there you have it. End of...... possibly.

 

 

Agreed you can argue all day/week/month about how the Oxydator works but the fact is it works for many in the way it is intended and that's what matters to most. My Oxydators have worked for me for around 35 years or so

 

 

Now I have to consider do I bore people again with the facts as I know them to be. OK just for you then.

 

I have used Oxydator's for around 35 years in around 12 tanks in that time always the same positive results all incidental of course. Then I have a number of friends who have used them for around 25 years give or take 5 years or so who have had similar results in any number of tanks all incidental of course. Then there are those all over the world inc here in the UK who use them and getting good results using Oxydator's which is all incidental of course. Then all over Europe etc etc.

 

All these god knows how many people who swear by the use of Oxydator's are all reporting incidental results in many forums not just on nano reefs or just US based forums. I think sometimes the people of the USA think if its not in the US then it's of no use. Oxydator's are very new in the US . I will remind you that up until a few short months ago you couldn't even buy an Oxydator in the US and I sent Albert his first one. Seahorse breeder in the UK was doing a good trade sending Oxydator's to the US until a US distributor was appointed well one that actually had them in stock. Now you can dismiss all the above as nothing the average aquarists has has been done in a scientific manner, I think we know the reasons for that. I could go on but then I would get criticized for repeating myself which i have done above of course.

 

 

Add another decade and your sure to convince these young wipper snappers.

[atoll]

Agreed on this Chris. The only thing I disagree on is Atolls magical theory that O2 is pushed out from inside the jar, through the liquid at the bottom of the jar - defying gravity- and into the tank.

 

Why do you persist in this line? I have already said that I agree peroxide is push out of the bell but that O2also leaves the Oxydator as I have repeated above. Also what you can't see is the O2 that is dissolved of course in the water but you can measure it with an oxygen test kit again as I have said before.

 

 

1) either the water outside the jar and/or

2) the ceramic base which may have a catalyst in it

 

The ceramic base is part of the Oxydator it is NOT a separate add on item can't you see that. O2 can clearly be seen exiting the Oxydator unless y the bubble are something other than O2 which is so doubtful as it be almost laughable

 

 

[jedimasterben]

Strange - my oxydator doesn't have any bubbles fizzing out of it at all. I reloaded with a very small amount of peroxide (probably less than 5%, I didn't do any real measurement, but the amount of peroxide added to the reservoir was very small), two catalysts. My big anemone is pissed off like it has been even with much greater percentages of peroxide added to the water.

 

 

 

Also, some of you that have ordered from Saltwater-conversion should have received an email with a survey. If you did not, the link is here: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/ZQXZF9H

 

The results are interesting so far

[CJJon]

According to Sochting an Oxydator with two catalysts will produce 540 mg O2 per day. However the oxydator is not 100% efficient at dissolving O2 into the water.

 

100% O2 saturation at 26C in 35ppm saltwater is 6.64 mg/l. So a 100l tank would hold 664 mg of O2 at 100% saturation. Obviously, more O2 would be needed to bring the water past 100% saturation.

 

The water would already contain O2 saturated from normal air so the actual need would be less once the volume gets to +100%, what I would be interested in is knowing the rate needed to keep it at the +100% saturation level.

 

Something we would need to determine (assuming +100% saturation):

 

Rate at which O2 is lost from the system which would tell us how much H2O2 would be needed to maintain +100% O2 saturation.

 

atoll, what were the numbers when you did your testing? I am curious to know. I know you mentioned they are packed away, but ballpark? What was your O2 saturation pre-install? 70? 90? What was the saturation level after running the unit? Was is just a few points above 100 or more like 120? You probably didn't take loss-rate measurements, but if you did, they would be interesting too!

[atoll]

 

atoll, what were the numbers when you did your testing? I am curious to know. I know you mentioned they are packed away, but ballpark? What was your O2 saturation pre-install? 70? 90? What was the saturation level after running the unit? Was is just a few points above 100 or more like 120? You probably didn't take loss-rate measurements, but if you did, they would be interesting too!

I wish I could tell you it was so many years ago now. I can't even recall the measurement used (we are talking approx 30 years ago and my memory has long sinced deserted me for such. I think I will buy a Salifert O2 test kit and do some testing but IMO it would be best if at least 3 or 4 of us did similar O2 testing.

My LFS doesn't stock O2 test kits (no call for them ) So I will have to do the eBay thing. Anybody else up for O2 testing if so I would suggest we all use the same brand of test kit. Salifert seem to be readily available in most countries. Also we would need to consider how we are going to carry out the tests such as. Tank with no Oxydator in it say 24 hours without then say 5mins after putting the Oxydator in then after an hour. However even then our tanks will vary so much from tank volume, stocking rate, skimmer/no skimmer, Model of Oxydator used number of catalysts and % of peroxided used. So the test won't be the most scientific but may give us some indication of the results we can achieve O2 level wise.

[jedimasterben]

Ok, here are the results from yesterday's poll. I've removed the last few results that rolled in after I had posted the survey here (whoops, wasn't necessarily a 'public' survey, my bad ), these results are only from those who have purchased from Saltwater-Conversion. While many on Nano-Reef have gotten their units from other vendors, that's mostly because the medium unit is the more popular and it is not designed as well

 

The results were done in Survey Monkey, which logs IP addresses to prevent a single person from submitting multiple surveys. Without further ado, here they are.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Discuss.

[Neill.w]

Ok, here are the results from yesterday's poll. I've removed the last few results that rolled in after I had posted the survey here (whoops, wasn't necessarily a 'public' survey, my bad ), these results are only from those who have purchased from Saltwater-Conversion. While many on Nano-Reef have gotten their units from other vendors, that's mostly because the medium unit is the more popular and it is not designed as well

 

The results were done in Survey Monkey, which logs IP addresses to prevent a single person from submitting multiple surveys. Without further ado, here they are.

 

 

 

Thanks very much for all your help with this Ben. Greatly appreciated.

 

To keep things as neutral as possible Ben had the logins to the survey as it was running and he was given temporary access to a list of customers names who have purchased a unit so he could verify with them if they had received an email with the poll etc if he wanted to. If anyone has purchased from me and did not get the email for any reason let me know.

 

The idea of limiting the poll to actual verified customers was so that the poll had meaningful results from people who own the product and have experience with it. Not just a poll of what any old random people on the internet think a about product they may or may not have used.

 

Two members I am aware of who missed out are Kat and Albert Theil (both where given a free unit so neither where in the database)

 

As Ben mentioned many people are using the medium unit, most of which I did not sell as I stopped stocking them some time ago (they are not well designed and prone to leak in my opinion)

 

Thanks to everyone who participated in filling in the survey.

You are all in a lucky draw for a MAME skimmer to say thanks for your time.

[Pinner Reef]

This thread is like watching the color blind compare swatches in the paint dept.

.

[albertthiel]

Ok, here are the results from yesterday's poll. I've removed the last few results that rolled in after I had posted the survey here (whoops, wasn't necessarily a 'public' survey, my bad ), these results are only from those who have purchased from Saltwater-Conversion. While many on Nano-Reef have gotten their units from other vendors, that's mostly because the medium unit is the more popular and it is not designed as well

 

The results were done in Survey Monkey, which logs IP addresses to prevent a single person from submitting multiple surveys. Without further ado, here they are.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Discuss.

 

Thanks Ben for your assistance to Neill in monitoring and compiling this. Much appreciated

 

Albert

[atoll]

Not 100% sure what the "medium" unit I understand there are 4 Oxydator's in order of size they are from the Mini, Model D, Model A and the pond version the W which I would guess you do not stock. So are you referring to the model D then as they are not classed as small medium and large?

[hypostatic]

How many people contributed to the poll?

[atoll]

How many people contributed to the poll?

It says 15

[albertthiel]

How many people contributed to the poll?

Look at the detail of the report : 15

This thread is like watching the color blind compare swatches in the paint dept.

.

Can you then give us some scientific data maybe on other methods used on reefs if you discount this survey

 

Are you using one

 

Give us an example perhaps of what data you would like to see.

[Pinner Reef]

 

Can you then give us some scientific data maybe on other methods used on reefs if you discount this survey

 

Are you using one

 

Give us an example perhaps of what data you would like to see.

 

This is my primary problem with the device. I may have missed it along the way but there seems to be no verifiable data to reference before and after effects. Are, are you testing for anything other than Dissolved Oxygen? Is there a control tank that was initially set up to test this thing out?

 

Just seems like a "Snakeoil" type of product...

 

I probably shouldn't even be talking in this thread as I haven't had the patience to read thru the entire thing.

 

Please carry on.

[albertthiel]

 

This is my primary problem with the device. I may have missed it along the way but there seems to be no verifiable data to reference before and after effects. Are, are you testing for anything other than Dissolved Oxygen? Is there a control tank that was initially set up to test this thing out?

 

Just seems like a "Snakeoil" type of product...

 

I probably shouldn't even be talking in this thread as I haven't had the patience to read thru the entire thing.

 

Please carry on.

I suggest you read the thread. It has been in use for over 30+ years. Definitely NOT snake oil.

 

Before and after images were posted on my own thread as well

[Neill.w]

 

This is my primary problem with the device. I may have missed it along the way but there seems to be no verifiable data to reference before and after effects. Are, are you testing for anything other than Dissolved Oxygen? Is there a control tank that was initially set up to test this thing out?

 

Just seems like a "Snakeoil" type of product...

 

I probably shouldn't even be talking in this thread as I haven't had the patience to read thru the entire thing.

 

Please carry on.

 

Hi,

For everyone who missed it the first time round

H2O2 dosing is an established technique used by many reef keepers for a long time (both dosing H2O2 directly or dipping frags)

Just because this doser is called an 'oxydator' it is still doing exactly the same thing. Dosing H2O2 into the tank water.

As pressure builds up in the Oxydator tank H2O2 is dripped into the water.

That is how its works, not magic.

 

The science behind peroxide dosing for algae control and water quality is no mystery and is well studied with literally hundreds and hundreds of scientific papers on the subject.

It is widely used in commercial applications for algae control and control of organics

Responses of marine macroalgae to hydrogen-peroxide stress

A.L Dummermuth, a, , U Karstenb, K.M Fischc, G.M Königc, C Wienckea

Combined Exposure to Hydrogen Peroxide and LightSelective Effects on Cyanobacteria, Green Algae, and Diatoms

Michaela Drábková Wim Admiraal and Blahoslav Maršálek

Cell death upon H₂O₂ induction in the unicellular green alga Micrasterias

A. Darehshouri^†, M. Affenzeller^† andcU. Lütz-Meind

Look on google scholar for hundreds of hours of more exhilarating reading.

 

This site also has some great reading on H2O2 and links to lots of scientific papers and information