Anthrax & Gangs! 50G SCA

[thecoralbeauty]

Well its a step in the right direction. Glad to hear the spots are gone. Just keep monitoring as usual and hope they dont come back worse. Like I said previously,I know of other people that have ich come and go, but have never really lost any fish to it, unless they were unhealthy or injured from some other reason. I would def still hold off for a little while before getting those replacements from ORA, or any other new fish for that matter, or any new stressers for that matter.

exactly.

also, tried the garlic.

wow. frenzied even more.

[D Z]

exactly.

also, tried the garlic.

wow. frenzied even more.

 

Just out of curiosity what are you using for garlic?

[thecoralbeauty]

Just out of curiosity what are you using for garlic?

fresh clove of garlic mashed up

[jedimasterben]

Woah. Can I feed fish frozen food without defrosting it?

You can, indeed. Thawing is for sissies

 

Though sometimes PE mysis just love to float unless they're thawed and sit in water for an hour or so. Shrimpy little bastards.

 

Actually yes. This is just one of what I would presume would be many articles. I'm sure you will have fun reading this Ben.

http://www.qualitymarine.com/News/Feature-Articles/Tips-From-The-Pros:--Additive-Supplements-for-Fish-Foods-(06/21/12)

 

Also, I have also seen talk that it is bad to feed frozen food to fish without first defrosting it. This is for multiple reasons.

1) Usually you would want to rinse the food, but with LRS I don't worry about that as it is so fresh.

2) I have heard that it is really bad for fish to eat food while it is still cold/frozen due to their extremely sensitive intestinal lining. I am no expert and I do not have any "data" to back this up, but I do know that fish do not eat anything that is frozen and/or cold in the wild.

There was also a very good edition of Coral Magazine in January that was all about the feeding arts of reef aquariums. It talked a lot about enriching your foods(especially with HUFAs, PUFAs, vitamins, and amino acids) and also mentioned that frozen foods should ALWAYS be defrosted first before feeding. It did not give a specific reason as to why, but the article was very well put together so I am assuming it was written by someone who knows a lot more than I do.

Ben - Do you have any data that shows that I am wasting my money by buying food additives and/or wasting my time by defrosting? If so, please share as I love saving time and money wherever possible.

That article gives no real data. It doesn't even list any references to actual data to back up any claims made, just to more hobby-centric articles and books. In addition, it mentions that garlic has no scientific data to prove it helps but plenty of anecdotal that says it does. If a thousand people are wrong about something, that doesn't make them right about it lol. The scientific data I've seen shows a significant weight gain in marine fish as the only effect - and this is because the garlic has an extremely potent smell to it. The fish are curious and are much more likely to eat food soaked in garlic vs not soaked, so if a fish is not eating at all, garlic extract is an excellent addition. It has no other practical effects noted.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4092909/

 

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/sp/

 

 

As for any published data on ornamental reef fish diet enhancements, I can find none on the subject, and it's pretty unlikely that there will be any that would be done independent of a manufacturer and submitted for peer review, as doing an experiment of this sort would be extremely costly and lengthy. Most manufacturers do just fine with marketing fluff, so not much need in having anything actually tested. I'll continue to search, though, as these are areas that are extremely interesting to me. The scholarly data available for similar subjects all has to do with marine aquaculture, which is never really about getting a fish to look its best, but simply grow the fastest and get as physically large as possible.

 

Whether or not fish eat something in the wild means nothing, realistically. PE mysis is the go-to frozen food for reef tanks, yet no marine organism has ever or will ever eat Mysis diluviana in the wild because it is a temperate freshwater species. Along similar lines, it is possible for a person to live on a powdered food source, think 'soylent'. There are several available, and they are nutritionally complete according to the FDA for a typical adult. Certainly not something humans would ever be exposed to 'in the wild' but it meets macro- and micronutrient requirements. Apparently most all of them taste awful, though lol.

 

TL;DR Not everything that is great is natural (like PE mysis), and not everything that is natural is great (like arsenic or radium).

 

So Ben - you just put a piece of the frozen on that thing?

Yes, very convenient, just stick some on and watch!

 

1)Like Stella said, I have always heard that most frozen foods are very dirty(i.e. extra phosphats and nitrates, among other toxins), which it is always advised to rinse your food, after it has defrosted. Although, I have never heard the arguement that the excess nutrients are negligible.

2)Notice how his fish are eating it directly off the still frozen chunk of food. I guarantee you that the food they are ingesting is at least a couple degrees colder, if not more, than it would be if it had been defrosted at room temp. Whether it makes a difference, I do not know, but like I said before, this is not natural.

 

In full disclosure, Larry's site does say that you can drop a frozen piece of food into your aquarium, but I personally still don't agree with that.

Frozen foods are not inherently 'dirty', that is just some really persistent hobby dogma lol. The article that stellablue links has the data on that. It is not peer reviewed, but it was performed by an award winning chemist who treats his hobby articles with nearly the same scrutiny as he does for his dayjob Randy's tests show that rinsing frozen food of any small particulates and discarding the liquid reduced the phosphate concentration by around 1%. With a Hikari Formula Two (herbivore feed) cube adding 0.032ppm phosphate to 379L volume, this would reduce the added amount to 0.03168ppm, which even a Hanna phosphorus colorimeter would not be able to detect with any repeatable certainty (uncertainty is 5ppb phosphorus, which is 0.01533ppm phosphate). Note that this was an experiment without any mechanical or chemical filtration, which would both reduce the effects extensively.

 

Why aren't your fish going bananas for it, mine display a frenzy

See that big silver fish in there?

 

got the LRS. same feeding reaction as normal- huge pigs.

 

no more spots on any fish. though visible symptoms don't mean cured, normal behavior/feeding and appearance aren't necessarily negative either.

Right, this is still following the typical life cycle of the parasite, right on schedule. Average time to hatch at 74F is 3-7 days, so probably 2-6 days at your tank temperature, that will be the time when the parasites will start looking for their next host and you'll see spots appear again if the fish cannot get their slime coat up to snuff.

[D Z]

You can, indeed. Thawing is for sissies

 

Though sometimes PE mysis just love to float unless they're thawed and sit in water for an hour or so. Shrimpy little bastards.

 

That article gives no real data. It doesn't even list any references to actual data to back up any claims made, just to more hobby-centric articles and books. In addition, it mentions that garlic has no scientific data to prove it helps but plenty of anecdotal that says it does. If a thousand people are wrong about something, that doesn't make them right about it lol. The scientific data I've seen shows a significant weight gain in marine fish as the only effect - and this is because the garlic has an extremely potent smell to it. The fish are curious and are much more likely to eat food soaked in garlic vs not soaked, so if a fish is not eating at all, garlic extract is an excellent addition. It has no other practical effects noted.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4092909/

 

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/sp/

 

 

As for any published data on ornamental reef fish diet enhancements, I can find none on the subject, and it's pretty unlikely that there will be any that would be done independent of a manufacturer and submitted for peer review, as doing an experiment of this sort would be extremely costly and lengthy. Most manufacturers do just fine with marketing fluff, so not much need in having anything actually tested. I'll continue to search, though, as these are areas that are extremely interesting to me. The scholarly data available for similar subjects all has to do with marine aquaculture, which is never really about getting a fish to look its best, but simply grow the fastest and get as physically large as possible.

 

Whether or not fish eat something in the wild means nothing, realistically. PE mysis is the go-to frozen food for reef tanks, yet no marine organism has ever or will ever eat Mysis diluviana in the wild because it is a temperate freshwater species. Along similar lines, it is possible for a person to live on a powdered food source, think 'soylent'. There are several available, and they are nutritionally complete according to the FDA for a typical adult. Certainly not something humans would ever be exposed to 'in the wild' but it meets macro- and micronutrient requirements. Apparently most all of them taste awful, though lol.

 

TL;DR Not everything that is great is natural (like PE mysis), and not everything that is natural is great (like arsenic or radium).

 

Yes, very convenient, just stick some on and watch!

 

Frozen foods are not inherently 'dirty', that is just some really persistent hobby dogma lol. The article that stellablue links has the data on that. It is not peer reviewed, but it was performed by an award winning chemist who treats his hobby articles with nearly the same scrutiny as he does for his dayjob Randy's tests show that rinsing frozen food of any small particulates and discarding the liquid reduced the phosphate concentration by around 1%. With a Hikari Formula Two (herbivore feed) cube adding 0.032ppm phosphate to 379L volume, this would reduce the added amount to 0.03168ppm, which even a Hanna phosphorus colorimeter would not be able to detect with any repeatable certainty (uncertainty is 5ppb phosphorus, which is 0.01533ppm phosphate). Note that this was an experiment without any mechanical or chemical filtration, which would both reduce the effects extensively.

 

See that big silver fish in there?

 

Right, this is still following the typical life cycle of the parasite, right on schedule. Average time to hatch at 74F is 3-7 days, so probably 2-6 days at your tank temperature, that will be the time when the parasites will start looking for their next host and you'll see spots appear again if the fish cannot get their slime coat up to snuff.

Healthy debate we have going on here.....you obviously have more data to back your side, but I am starting to feel that this topic is more of a personal preference than anything else. If your fish are well fed, have good color, and generally look healthy, then keep doing what you are doing.(and I mean that in general, not just you or me) I do agree with you on the topic of garlic, though, as it is mostly used to promote healthy eating in picky fish. As for the other food additives, I can agree to disagree and continue to do what works for each of us.

 

One thing I wanted to say as far as the issue you have with mysis not sinking. This is due to the mysid needing to be purged of air due to the freeze-drying process. There is a trick you can do with a syringe that will speed up the process. I cannot believe that you would go threw so many steps of putting your blender in the freezer to keep the food cold when making food from scratch, but then leave your mysis out for an hour to decay before feeding it to your fish?!?! So, the trick that I have heard of is to pull the defrosted mysis into a syringe with some tank water, filling the syringe about half way. Then, invert it so the tip is pointing up and purge any air in the syringe. Then, put your finger over the tip and draw the syringe back. This will create a vacuum in the syringe, causing the air trapped in the food particles to be replaced with water. Also, on a side note, if you were adding vitamins to your food, this is also a good, quick process to get the vitamins deep into the food as well.

 

Oh yeah, and one more trick that I do sometimes. If you don't use the full syringe of food, this can be stored in the fridge. In the past, when life is really crazy, I have made multiple syringes and stored then for up to a week, or even longer if you absolutely had to(think long vacation/tank sitter) That way you do not have to defrost food every day, and the syringe makes for a very convenient method of storage/feeding.

[thecoralbeauty]

well, i've taken heart from this discussion knowing that at least i've been feeding well for the last 6 years since i've been in the hobby haha.

and always glad to learn something.

 

harry has been pestering me to post another FTS, but really, nothing has changed from the last time. All is well, everyone is acting normal, life is good. i may post some when i get home tonight, i guess we will see.

 

and I have two weeks until christmas break, and 6 weeks until I'm done with my masters, and so normal, non-tank life is good as well, despite everything going on this time of year.

[jedimasterben]

Healthy debate we have going on here.....you obviously have more data to back your side, but I am starting to feel that this topic is more of a personal preference than anything else. If your fish are well fed, have good color, and generally look healthy, then keep doing what you are doing.(and I mean that in general, not just you or me) I do agree with you on the topic of garlic, though, as it is mostly used to promote healthy eating in picky fish. As for the other food additives, I can agree to disagree and continue to do what works for each of us.

 

One thing I wanted to say as far as the issue you have with mysis not sinking. This is due to the mysid needing to be purged of air due to the freeze-drying process. There is a trick you can do with a syringe that will speed up the process. I cannot believe that you would go threw so many steps of putting your blender in the freezer to keep the food cold when making food from scratch, but then leave your mysis out for an hour to decay before feeding it to your fish?!?! So, the trick that I have heard of is to pull the defrosted mysis into a syringe with some tank water, filling the syringe about half way. Then, invert it so the tip is pointing up and purge any air in the syringe. Then, put your finger over the tip and draw the syringe back. This will create a vacuum in the syringe, causing the air trapped in the food particles to be replaced with water. Also, on a side note, if you were adding vitamins to your food, this is also a good, quick process to get the vitamins deep into the food as well.

 

Oh yeah, and one more trick that I do sometimes. If you don't use the full syringe of food, this can be stored in the fridge. In the past, when life is really crazy, I have made multiple syringes and stored then for up to a week, or even longer if you absolutely had to(think long vacation/tank sitter) That way you do not have to defrost food every day, and the syringe makes for a very convenient method of storage/feeding.

Oh no, I only left the mysis out a couple of times as a test to see how long it would take before they stopped floating lol. I feed a cube of mysis just about daily and feed it frozen, I basically stick it to the side of my RW-8 and let it pull bits in and grind them up as it thaws in the tank

 

I can't decide if I want to go and get more LRS tonight while the LFS has it 25% off (so making it ~$15 per pack) or if I want to go to Publix and get some seafood and make it. Why do I have to be this lazy lol

[thecoralbeauty]

Oh no, I only left the mysis out a couple of times as a test to see how long it would take before they stopped floating lol. I feed a cube of mysis just about daily and feed it frozen, I basically stick it to the side of my RW-8 and let it pull bits in and grind them up as it thaws in the tank

 

I can't decide if I want to go and get more LRS tonight while the LFS has it 25% off (so making it ~$15 per pack) or if I want to go to Publix and get some seafood and make it. Why do I have to be this lazy lol

why i hate that store, neptunes:

 

one small ball of cheato for the fuge and a pack of LRS was 85 bucks.

[jedimasterben]

why i hate that store, neptunes:

 

one small ball of cheato for the fuge and a pack of LRS was 85 bucks.

 

 

You could order it from places like Premium Aquatics for less than that.

[ReefWeeds]

why i hate that store, neptunes:

 

one small ball of cheato for the fuge and a pack of LRS was 85 bucks.

good god! WHAT?

[HarryPotter]

why i hate that store, neptunes:

 

one small ball of cheato for the fuge and a pack of LRS was 85 bucks.

You serious? You could get it for $10 shipped from a dozen members here...

why i hate that store, neptunes:

 

one small ball of cheato for the fuge and a pack of LRS was 85 bucks.

You serious? You could get it for $10 shipped from a dozen members here...

[ninjamyst]

and I have two weeks until christmas break, and 6 weeks until I'm done with my masters, and so normal, non-tank life is good as well, despite everything going on this time of year.

 

holiday season! are your kids doing anything special for the holidays? like a play or song?

[D Z]

why i hate that store, neptunes:

 

one small ball of cheato for the fuge and a pack of LRS was 85 bucks.

Hold on, was that a typo???? There's no way! LRS should only be around 20 - 25. If they actually charged you $50+ for chaeto that is ####### ridiculous.

[righttirefire]

He'll you pay shipping I have a sump full of chaeto. Maybe be trmiming and throwING away

[thecoralbeauty]

 

holiday season! are your kids doing anything special for the holidays? like a play or song?

i miss teaching music, because in past years of teaching, we would.

 

not doing anything like that here though, the charter i work at doesn't have a music program or a drama program. just art and PE for specials.

 

I still may go take my cello by myself and carol at the VA nursing homes around town. I used to do that with a cello quartet i was in. holidays are kind of rough for me in general, i really miss my husband this time of year, but music has always been able to help with that. I'm playing a christmas program for my parent's church, i know that for sure.

 

Hold on, was that a typo???? There's no way! LRS should only be around 20 - 25. If they actually charged you $50+ for chaeto that is ####### ridiculous.

nope. no typo. They are ridiculous. horrible, horrible customer service, horrible advice. I was in there shopping for lights (not to buy from them but to check out in person and play with the kessil vs the radion) back in march of this year, just browsing (before I found AA- where Sk8nReefer and i now go) and this guy was telling me that i shouldn't get a nice light because "corals really don't need that much light, it doesn't matter as much as water quality, you should bring me a sample of your water"

like, yea buddy. nice man bun and all, but i know how to test my own water, and my params are fine. I'm not in here for problem solving, I'm in here to play with lights lol

 

everything is overpriced there though. they wanted 160 for a maxima clam the size that i have right now, (3 inches? if that) and they wanted 90 for a strawberry shrimp. oh. and 15 bucks for ONE berghia nudibranch. which was smaller than my pinky finger. and i have small fingers.

[D Z]

i miss teaching music, because in past years of teaching, we would.

 

not doing anything like that here though, the charter i work at doesn't have a music program or a drama program. just art and PE for specials.

 

I still may go take my cello by myself and carol at the VA nursing homes around town. I used to do that with a cello quartet i was in. holidays are kind of rough for me in general, i really miss my husband this time of year, but music has always been able to help with that. I'm playing a christmas program for my parent's church, i know that for sure.

 

nope. no typo. They are ridiculous. horrible, horrible customer service, horrible advice. I was in there shopping for lights (not to buy from them but to check out in person and play with the kessil vs the radion) back in march of this year, just browsing (before I found AA- where Sk8nReefer and i now go) and this guy was telling me that i shouldn't get a nice light because "corals really don't need that much light, it doesn't matter as much as water quality, you should bring me a sample of your water"

like, yea buddy. nice man bun and all, but i know how to test my own water, and my params are fine. I'm not in here for problem solving, I'm in here to play with lights lol

 

everything is overpriced there though. they wanted 160 for a maxima clam the size that i have right now, (3 inches? if that) and they wanted 90 for a strawberry shrimp. oh. and 15 bucks for ONE berghia nudibranch. which was smaller than my pinky finger. and i have small fingers.

That's just plain ridiculous. I still cannot even fathom. How much was the food and how much was the chaeto? That is a stupid high price for the clam and shrimp. Actually not a bad price for the nudi(they go for up to 20 here, and they are usually pretty small too)

[Fishstiks]

Oh no, I only left the mysis out a couple of times as a test to see how long it would take before they stopped floating lol. I feed a cube of mysis just about daily and feed it frozen, I basically stick it to the side of my RW-8 and let it pull bits in and grind them up as it thaws in the tank

 

I can't decide if I want to go and get more LRS tonight while the LFS has it 25% off (so making it ~$15 per pack) or if I want to go to Publix and get some seafood and make it. Why do I have to be this lazy lol

Wow. My fish are freakin' pigs! If I tried to stick a frozen cube to my powerhead, they would get their asses sucked into it trying to suck on the cube! Lol

[jedimasterben]

Well damn. LFS didn't have any LRS, so I went to Publix and got clams, scallops, shrimp, mussels, and oysters and just put it in the freezer. Took around 20 minutes once the blender was to temperature, longest part was getting the oysters and clams opened.

[thecoralbeauty]

Wow. My fish are freakin' pigs! If I tried to stick a frozen cube to my powerhead, they would get their asses sucked into it trying to suck on the cube! Lol

same. i use a pimento jar to squirt some tank water in with a baster.

 

got off work early. took a FTS per harry's relentless pestering, and now am off to try to get my hair into victory rolls for the 50's thing tomorrow.

 

 

And a throw back to the 20L:

 

And my favorite picture I think I've ever taken of a tank:

[righttirefire]

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looks like my nuvo

[thecoralbeauty]

no more spots, but they still may re-appear.

 

fish still eating like pigs, behaving normally.

 

my work-friend date last night couldn't really swing or foxtrot all that well, but it was good enough to dance just a little! it was SUPER fun to get dolled up like the 50's and go dancing. all sorts of fun cut-outs, planes, and cars to see, good food and drink, and a live band. plus, some people can really lindy hop- and that was awesome to watch as well.

[metrokat]

You looked great for the party.

[Sunar357]

Love the hi-fin/shrimp pic!

[Pinner Reef]

 

You can, indeed. Thawing is for sissies

 

 

 

 

 

 

gourmet defroster Harry

 

Am i the only one who just drops a cube on the wavemaker's intake, let it defrost and get shot across the tank?

[thecoralbeauty]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Am i the only one who just drops a cube on the wavemaker's intake, let it defrost and get shot across the tank?

 

i have a little re-purposed pimento jar. i put my frozen stuff in there and mess around with a baster and tank water until its defrosted