Alto's Dwarf Seahorses

[altolamprologus]

Tank...with no coral?

 

A cold chill just ran up my spine. Surely Zoanthids, clove polyps, and leathers would have no ill affect on them?

Don't worry, it'll be filled with macro algae so it'll look just as good as a reef. I actually forgot softies existed for a moment. Those would be fine, but no sps or lps

 

My lfs has a dwarf in its frag tank with softies and Lps. I don't know if they are completely stupid, or figured somthing out the rest of us haven't. I know for a fact it's been there for atleast 2 weeks, and next time I go I want to see if it's still alive.

I'm surprised the LPS haven't eaten them yet. They certainly have stings powerful enough to subdue them.

[patback]

Well of course theres that, but I was also concerned about the higher temperature, quicker flow, hydroids, and trouble finding Any food. Seems like a fool proof way to kill them yet it's still alive.

 

I mean, I don't want to experiment with my own if I get some, but maybe they may be hardier than our research is telling us.

[Psychosis]

Yea, that seems like going all in on a pair of 3's...bad bet.

 

I think if you found a nice free floating Zoanthid, peroxide dipped it, and gave it a gentle scrub, they could be a nice addition. I'm not going to question Macro, they're gorgeous, I just like a little extra invert action with everything I do.

[altolamprologus]

Well of course theres that, but I was also concerned about the higher temperature, quicker flow, hydroids, and trouble finding Any food. Seems like a fool proof way to kill them yet it's still alive.

 

I mean, I don't want to experiment with my own if I get some, but maybe they may be hardier than our research is telling us.

Well yeah there's all that too. They're not going to last long, I guarantee it. Dwarfs are super hardy (they survive priority mail shipping no problem) but in a frag tank, the flow will probably push them straight into something that will sting and eat them. Or they'll starve to death since they need food almost constantly.

 

I just like a little extra invert action with everything I do.

[yoshii]

I would think Caulerpa would be fine with lower temps, that stuff is invincible

[Whys]

Oh yes, good point. I'm being super cautious with that stuff. I washed my hands like 6 times after using it before I put my hands in my tanks.

Would be better to handle the fen with gloves I think.

[Felicia]

Would be better to handle the fen with gloves I think.

Yeah, I think I'm going to stick with gloves just to be safe. I've got an endless supply of them at my lab and that way I can just throw them out after each time I work with the fenbendazole to make sure I don't transfer it into the tank. I'm considering finding a small heater to maintain the temperature in the tank closer to like 77F since the appropriate temperature range for dwarfs is 72-77F according to the book I have on them. At 76-77F most macros should be totally fine and then I can have more variety and not have to worry about the temp being too low.

[altolamprologus]

Would be better to handle the fen with gloves I think.

Good idea. I've been meaning to start wearing gloves when working in my tanks anyway

 

Yeah, I think I'm going to stick with gloves just to be safe. I've got an endless supply of them at my lab and that way I can just throw them out after each time I work with the fenbendazole to make sure I don't transfer it into the tank. I'm considering finding a small heater to maintain the temperature in the tank closer to like 77F since the appropriate temperature range for dwarfs is 72-77F according to the book I have on them. At 76-77F most macros should be totally fine and then I can have more variety and not have to worry about the temp being too low.

How old is that book? From what I've read, they do best right around 70 but can tolerate temps down into the low 60s and all the way up to 80 for short periods of time.

[Euphyllia]

Well, I had caulerpa go sexual when the lights went out and the temperature dropped in my dwarf seahorse tank (never got around to ordering them, but had artemia cultures set up and functioning... pretty sad) so maybe it does react to temperature?

 

The keeping it cooler part does make sense because they live in the gulf, so it isn't too warm in the waters there. Still tropicalish though... I had a dream last night that I found some black dwarfs in Florida and I took a pic of it with my phone underwater... Pretty legit.

 

Not sure if it was said, but when do you think you'll order the herd?

 

PS: When they breed, I'm still interested in getting a few for a desktop tank. Just PM me at the time to see if I'm still interested I guess...

 

I had a very eloquent and touching reply thought up, but I'll ask what you're doing on a reefing board, if a potted plant is superior, instead. "You know people here" isn't a valid answer.

 

Because I know my shiz. I've been doing this crap for four years and I have to get out of three tanks due to financial and time issues, and right after I sell/give away things to people who have been good to me in this hobby, things financially turn around... So whateves. I know people here, and that is a valid answer BECAUSE THEY WON'T ADD ME ON FACEBOOK AHEM AHEM... So yeah... I chat in threads that welcome it and when needed, like now... I've been on here since like three years ago or something. I have a crap load of knowledge in my head that won't go to any use otherwise, so I try to help out in the boards on here. Is helping not good? I can just leave... Or better yet, stay and not help at all. I'm sure that would make you happy.

[altolamprologus]

I would think Caulerpa would be fine with lower temps, that stuff is invincible

I was going to do a field of prolifera so I hope it will grow well in cool water. I need to buy some more though, my urchin ate all of mine when I wasn't looking.

 

Not sure if it was said, but when do you think you'll order the herd?

 

PS: When they breed, I'm still interested in getting a few for a desktop tank. Just PM me at the time to see if I'm still interested I guess...

I have to go test ammonia today, but I should be ordering them next week

 

Sure I'll let you know

[Felicia]

How old is that book? From what I've read, they do best right around 70 but can tolerate temps down into the low 60s and all the way up to 80 for short periods of time.

Its 2003, so several years old, but it still seems to be the go to book (and the only one I can find) for dwarf seahorses. I can't remember which website it was, but one of the ones that sold seahorses and seahorse supplies actually sold a starter kit including that book.

 

Seahorse.org's article on dwarf seahorse care says like 74F or a bit higher is optimal. World of seahorses also says 75F is optimal but a bit higher or lower is ok. At least if its ok to keep the temp right around 75-76, more macros should be fine in that I would think (although this is my first attempt at keeping macros).

 

Oh and Seahorsesource.com is where I saw the 72-77F. They say:

"Water Temperature: 72 to 77 degrees Fahrenheit. 22 to 25 degrees Celsius."

 

And here's what Reefcleaners recommends for most macroalgaes in terms of temperature:

"Temperature: mid to upper 70's, although 72-86 is what they can handle, with short durations of cold endured."

 

There's definitely some overlap there, so if the dwarf seahorse tank can be kept at 74-75F, most macros should be pretty happy.

[altolamprologus]

Its 2003, so several years old, but it still seems to be the go to book (and the only one I can find) for dwarf seahorses. I can't remember which website it was, but one of the ones that sold seahorses and seahorse supplies actually sold a starter kit including that book.

 

Seahorse.org's article on dwarf seahorse care says like 74F or a bit higher is optimal. World of seahorses also says 75F is optimal but a bit higher or lower is ok. At least if its ok to keep the temp right around 75-76, more macros should be fine in that I would think (although this is my first attempt at keeping macros).

 

Oh and Seahorsesource.com is where I saw the 72-77F. They say:

"Water Temperature: 72 to 77 degrees Fahrenheit. 22 to 25 degrees Celsius."

 

And here's what Reefcleaners recommends for most macroalgaes in terms of temperature:

"Temperature: mid to upper 70's, although 72-86 is what they can handle, with short durations of cold endured."

 

There's definitely some overlap there, so if the dwarf seahorse tank can be kept at 74-75F, most macros should be pretty happy.

Wow thanks for the info. I have a small heater I can put in there so I think I'll go do that. I'll still keep it on the low end though since it's almost summer

[Felicia]

Wow thanks for the info. I have a small heater I can put in there so I think I'll go do that. I'll still keep it on the low end though since it's almost summer

You're very welcome. I've been looking into that quite a bit since I really want this to be a nice macro tank as well as the dwarf seahorses. I don't keep any macros in my main display tank, so I'd like to keep a nice variety in the little tank with the seahorses. I'm thinking about getting a 25W heater and setting it on 74F for now. I agree to maybe keep it lower in case it gets pretty hot this summer.

[Whys]

Well, I had caulerpa go sexual when the lights went out and the temperature dropped in my dwarf seahorse tank... so maybe it does react to temperature?

Many macros go sexual when there is any kind of change to the photo cycle, be it time on, time off, or change in intensity. This is why Chaeto is so popular, as it doesn't have this problem.

 

I had a dream last night that I found some black dwarfs in Florida and I took a pic of it with my phone underwater... Pretty legit.

Show us the photo, or it didn't happen.

 

I have a crap load of knowledge in my head that won't go to any use otherwise, so I try to help out in the boards on here.

An excellent choice.

[Felicia]

Hey! Did you hear about the whole issue with several groups trying to get dwarf seahorses put on the endangered species list? I knew they were trying to get them protected, but I didn't know it had gone as far as potentially putting them on the endangered species list. If that happens, it will be illegal to own, sell, or trade them.

 

I heard all about this because I just got off the phone with Seahorse Source. I had called to order fenbendazole, Dan's feed, and an artemia net. The guy I spoke to was super helpful and was giving me advice on how to use the fenbendazole. He said he hasn't had the best success with treating macros with it because he says the macros tend to not survive the treatment or at least that they don't do very well. He suggested a freshwater dip for macros and then scrub them really good with saltwater. Then if hydroids do appear, to remove any snails and treat the whole tank. He said the granule version of fenbendazole is the one that can leach for forever, but he said the liquid version can be removed with activated carbon. He said he's removed inverts, treated the whole tank with fenbendazole, then done water changes and run carbon for a month and been able to put the inverts back in the tank with no issues. Interesting to know!

 

Anyways, back to my original point. He wanted to make me aware of the push to get the dwarfs on the endangered species list. He said most people in the scientific and aquaculture communities are saying there is no need for them to be protected and there are plenty of them still in the wild. The lobbyist organizations are saying the gulf oil spill has made them endangered and is using some sketchy numbers to try to prove this. The guy at Seahorse Source said the petition to put them on the list is due July 3rd and then a decision will be made shortly after that. There are 3 options for what could happen as a result:

1) They could reject the petition and nothing would change

2) They can put dwarf seahorses on the watch list for a year to further investigate their populations and then make a decision

3) They can go onto the endangered species list and they'll be illegal to buy, sell, or even own.

 

Seahorse Source has currently backed off their breeding program with the dwarfs until they know what is going to happen. That's why they're listing the dwarfs as currently out of stock. The guy at Seahorse Source did say that Beth at Seahorse Corral plans to keep breeding them actively until they become illegal if that happens.

 

I realize that was a long post, but I wanted to give you a heads up in case you hadn't heard about all of this. I feel like Mike probably needs a warning too since he's designing that whole dwarf seahorse ecosystem tank.

[Felicia]

Here's the link to the official information:

https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/20...arf-seahorse-as

[altolamprologus]

I did read a brief article about it, but didn't realize it was so bad. I don't think they'll be illegal to own though. There are plenty of fish that are classified as endangered (I believe most species of seahorses are) and they are still legal to own. Hopefully it won't go further than restricting collection of wild-caught specimens. Honestly, I don't think they're in any danger of extinction. They breed so rapidly and from what I have read, are quite abundant in the gulf, despite the oil spill. I'll PM Mike and give him a heads up though.

 

Regarding the macros, mine have been in a fen bath for 48 hours now and all three pieces still look perfectly intact and have full coloring. I'll let you know how they do after I add them to the tank tomorrow. It's good to know liquid fen can be used in the tank without it leaching back into the water. I'll let Whys know so he can look into that.

 

Did you ask them what temp they raise their horses at? I would imagine it's at the high end of the range to encourage fast growth.

[Whys]

He suggested a freshwater dip for macros and then scrub them really good with saltwater. Then if hydroids do appear, to remove any snails and treat the whole tank.

 

Plan for failure? Well that sounds like excellent advice. Especially given the recommended approach.

 

He said the granule version of fenbendazole is the one that can leach for forever, but he said the liquid version can be removed with activated carbon.

The granule version is said to be worse, but no, the liquid is not safe. Can various inverts handle it to various degrees? Sure. But poison is still poison. It's like claiming most mice can survive a little rat poison if you dilute it well enough. Wouldn't be my approach.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, your post is pure gold. Dwarfs just aren't my hobby. Hope things work out for everyone!

[altolamprologus]

Here's the link to the official information:

https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/20...arf-seahorse-as

Forgive me for not reading the entire website, but do you know of any way to oppose the petition? Or at least to propose an amendment that allows for the captive breeding of dwarfs?

[Jacob042426]

they are certainly abundant in biscayne bay! when i go snorkling in my backyard i see tons!

[Euphyllia]

How the fluff muffins are they endangered? They breed like... seahorses...!

[Felicia]

I did read a brief article about it, but didn't realize it was so bad. I don't think they'll be illegal to own though. There are plenty of fish that are classified as endangered (I believe most species of seahorses are) and they are still legal to own. Hopefully it won't go further than restricting collection of wild-caught specimens. Honestly, I don't think they're in any danger of extinction. They breed so rapidly and from what I have read, are quite abundant in the gulf, despite the oil spill. I'll PM Mike and give him a heads up though.

 

Regarding the macros, mine have been in a fen bath for 48 hours now and all three pieces still look perfectly intact and have full coloring. I'll let you know how they do after I add them to the tank tomorrow. It's good to know liquid fen can be used in the tank without it leaching back into the water. I'll let Whys know so he can look into that.

 

Did you ask them what temp they raise their horses at? I would imagine it's at the high end of the range to encourage fast growth.

I agree that I don't believe they're close to being endangered and based on what I was told over the phone, the aquaculture facilities don't believe this either. He said this is the first marine species that is actively aquacultured that has been proposed for the endangered species act (ESA). Therefore, no one is sure what they'll do about the captive breeding industry if the petition for ESA status does pass.

 

Good to hear about the fen bath. Keep me posted and I'd love to get the info from you on exactly what you did if its successful.

 

I didn't ask about temperature because I was mostly just planning to call and order the fenbendazole and he started talking my ear off about all this ESA stuff. I sent an e-mail last night to Seahorse Corral asking a bunch of questions and that was one of them. So I'll let you know what they say when I get an answer.

 

Plan for failure? Well that sounds like excellent advice. Especially given the recommended approach.

 

 

The granule version is said to be worse, but no, the liquid is not safe. Can various inverts handle it to various degrees? Sure. But poison is still poison. It's like claiming most mice can survive a little rat poison if you dilute it well enough. Wouldn't be my approach.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, your post is pure gold. Dwarfs just aren't my hobby. Hope things work out for everyone!

I don't think he's talking about the inverts being able to handle the poison. He's claiming that the liquid version can be completely removed with activated carbon and that it does not leach. Whether or not this is true, I'm not sure, but I wanted to pass the info on. If alto's macro soak works, I'll probably try that to avoid having to put the fenbendazole in the tank.

 

Forgive me for not reading the entire website, but do you know of any way to oppose the petition? Or at least to propose an amendment that allows for the captive breeding of dwarfs?

Here's a link with the details on how to oppose it. Basically they're looking for information/data in a bunch of areas to try to make a conclusive decision. The public can comment and provide information disproving the need for the dwarfs to be protected. The public comments are due by July 3rd 2012. Here's the link about that:

http://www.pijac.org/_documents/us_dwarf_s...isting_2012.pdf

[altolamprologus]

I think I'm going to wait until I have my horses and they have started breeding before sending them an opposing comment. That way it comes from a breeder and not some just some average person.

 

I've been thinking a lot about tankmates for the dwarfs and I keep coming across the issue of them importing hydroids. I don't mean fish or anything like that, but what about snails? I want a couple dwarf ceriths in there but the shell can carry hydroids. Maybe I could scrub the shell with a toothbrush soaked in vinegar and try really hard not to touch the actual snail inside?

[Felicia]

I think I'm going to wait until I have my horses and they have started breeding before sending them an opposing comment. That way it comes from a breeder and not some just some average person.

Sounds like a good plan. I may do the same if I can get mine successfully breeding in time.

 

I've been thinking a lot about tankmates for the dwarfs and I keep coming across the issue of them importing hydroids. I don't mean fish or anything like that, but what about snails? I want a couple dwarf ceriths in there but the shell can carry hydroids. Maybe I could scrub the shell with a toothbrush soaked in vinegar and try really hard not to touch the actual snail inside?

I plan on adding snails and I realized the same issue. What I have read has suggested exactly what you said, just holding them and scrubbing their shells really well. They didn't say it had to be with vinegar though. I bet just saltwater or freshwater would work since what would remove the hydroids is the scrubbing. I probably won't use dwarf ceriths since they're so tiny that scrubbing will be a huge pain. I plan on adding a few of the slightly larger Florida ceriths, a couple nassarius, a couple virgin nerites, and possibly a couple zig-zag periwinkles.

[Euphyllia]

I think I'm going to wait until I have my horses and they have started breeding before sending them an opposing comment. That way it comes from a breeder and not some just some average person.

 

I've been thinking a lot about tankmates for the dwarfs and I keep coming across the issue of them importing hydroids. I don't mean fish or anything like that, but what about snails? I want a couple dwarf ceriths in there but the shell can carry hydroids. Maybe I could scrub the shell with a toothbrush soaked in vinegar and try really hard not to touch the actual snail inside?

 

I saw a pseudochromis (I think... it was pink a yellow, I call it a pink flopper because when I was little I would go to the LFS with my dad and he would poke the fish bowls with the pink floppers in them and they would jump out of the bowl onto the floor and we laughed... it was mean) with some dwarfs in a YouTube video.