Alto's Dwarf Seahorses

[altolamprologus]

Nice alto!!

 

I like that GHA...

You weren't supposed to see that. It's a new tank with a very large daily nutrient input. That's my excuse

[Whys]

I want to see the babies, but there's all that GHA in the way!

 

Congrats Alto, you're a mom!

 

Another teen mother...

 

 

 

Good work! Keep'em comming.

[Euphyllia]

Update on the babies? :3

[altolamprologus]

Update on the babies? :3

They're still alive. I try to count them everyday and I get anywhere from 15-19 depending on how many are out of sight. I killed one though. I had a surface skimmer overflow made for the AC20 but the teeth were too far apart and even with filter floss around the whole thing, one baby got sucked halfway in the first day and died. Needless to say, I took the overflow out and put the media bag back around the intake pipe.

 

Most of the babies are still pure white (they're always born white) but a few have gotten black spots. I'm interested to see what colors I get. They should start showing color at about 1.5 months old.

[Micro-Reefs Aquariums]

What do the babies eat? Do the parents help them?

[Euphyllia]

Do they come in orange and pink? I remember seeing pygmy seahorses on TV that were pink and purple.

[Meus]

What do the babies eat? Do the parents help them?

 

Babies eat the same thing as adults. Dwarfs show no parental care.

[Meus]

Do they come in orange and pink? I remember seeing pygmy seahorses on TV that were pink and purple.

 

Most pygmy seahorses come from the Pacific. These are H.zosterae, they come from the Gulf of Mexico. Normally they're earthy colors, browns, whites, and blacks. Green is about as bright as it gets. I've seen a dull orange one, but compared to the 30+ species of Pacific pygmy's...

[altolamprologus]

What do the babies eat? Do the parents help them?

The babies eat newly hatched brine and small copepods just like the adults do. The parents don't help them at all. The second they're born, they're on their own. Some parents, huh?

 

Do they come in orange and pink? I remember seeing pygmy seahorses on TV that were pink and purple.

Pygmy seahorses are different than dwarfs. Unfortunately, no one has had success keeping pygmys in captivity. But as soon as someone figures it out, I'm getting some

 

Thanks Meus for the explanation

[Euphyllia]

Pygmy seahorses are different than dwarfs. Unfortunately, no one has had success keeping pygmys in captivity. But as soon as someone figures it out, I'm getting some

 

Thanks Meus for the explanation

 

Ah, I see. Do they just not eat? What are the exact issues in keeping them, if you know?

 

This girl (the one singing) looks like you BTW...

[Meus]

Ah, I see. Do they just not eat? What are the exact issues in keeping them, if you know?

 

This girl (the one singing) looks like you BTW...

 

Because of their small size, you have to feed them equally small foods, and live. Because they don't move much you need to create a feeding density so they get enough of said small foods. And when you create a proper feeding density, the tank tends to build up nutrients very quickly. Due to their small size, you can't really have any pumps or intakes. And all but the slowest returns would sweep them away. Also, you need to culture foods that they will eat. Depending on the species, you may have to raise very small copepods. The majority of these are difficult to culture. Also, even if you get a culture going, they may not eat them. And they're illegal to capture for trade, being listed under CITES as an endangered species.

[altolamprologus]

Ah, I see. Do they just not eat? What are the exact issues in keeping them, if you know?

 

This girl (the one singing) looks like you BTW...

Pretty much what Meus said. They're smaller than dwarfs (if you can believe that) and they get very stressed when they aren't kept with their symbiotic gorgonian. Given that no one has ever been able to the gorgs alive, keeping the seahorses is even harder.

[altolamprologus]

Help Protect Delicate Dwarf Seahorses

 

Started by: Center for Biological Diversity, AZ.

 

In response to a petition from the Center for Biological Diversity, the National Marine Fisheries Service has agreed that the dwarf seahorse may warrant protection under the Endangered Species Act and is accepting comments until July 3 before making a decision. The smallest seahorse in America , the dwarf seahorse faces big problems: water quality degradation in the Gulf of Mexico , pollution from the Deepwater Horizon oil spill and cleanup and, most importantly, loss of their seagrass habitat.

 

Dwarf seahorses are habitat specialists, so as seagrasses disappear, the seahorses vanish with them. More than 50 percent of Florida seagrasses have been destroyed since 1950, and in some areas losses are as steep as 90 percent. These one-inch-long fish are not the only wildlife that depends on seagrass to survive, but they are the cutest.

 

Dwarf seahorses form monogamous pair bonds, and every morning they meet to perform a greeting dance. As with other seahorses, females place scores of eggs inside the males’ pouches, and the males then give birth to even tinier versions of adults. Boat propellers, shrimp trawlers and ocean acidification are all harming the seagrass these delicate animals need to survive.

 

Please take a moment right now to write to the Fisheries Service and tell it to grant dwarf seahorses the protection they so dearly need.

 

 

 

 

If you have concerns or feedback, click here to flag this petition.

 

This is an automated email. The petition text above was written by the Center for Biological Diversity, not by Change.org staff. Change.org is not responsible for the content.

 

This email was sent by Change.org to vanessa.vanbellingham@gmail.com | Start a petition

Unsubscribe. Edit your email notification settings.

 

 

To sign the petition click here

Do you know if it'll still be legal to buy and sell and dwarfs if that passes? I'm all for protecting the habitat and minimizing wild collection, but laws like that are often far reaching and impact captive breeding too. Most animals protected by the endangered species act are completely illegal to own, regardless of whether or not they were born in captivity. Do you see my concern?

 

BTW whoever wrote that has never owned dwarfs. It says they form monogamous pairs, but that's not true. The females are quite promiscuous.

[ZephNYC]

Do you know if it'll still be legal to buy and sell and dwarfs if that passes? I'm all for protecting the habitat and minimizing wild collection, but laws like that are often far reaching and impact captive breeding too. Most animals protected by the endangered species act are completely illegal to own, regardless of whether or not they were born in captivity. Do you see my concern?

 

BTW whoever wrote that has never owned dwarfs. It says they form monogamous pairs, but that's not true. The females are quite promiscuous.

 

Dont quote me on this, but I ASSUME it would be as it is for larger seahorses, which are already on the CITES restriction list. The collection rates are just far more controlled. They limit the amount that can be collected, the times of year collecting is allowed, and they can only collect ponies of a certain size. Also the retail price pretty much DOUBLES. It sounds like the author thought dwarfs were like larger species of seahorses, which are said to be monogamous.

[Meus]

Dont quote me on this, but I ASSUME it would be as it is for larger seahorses, which are already on the CITES restriction list. The collection rates are just far more controlled. They limit the amount that can be collected, the times of year collecting is allowed, and they can only collect ponies of a certain size. Also the retail price pretty much DOUBLES. It sounds like the author thought dwarfs were like larger species of seahorses, which are said to be monogamous.

 

Very few large seahorses are monogamous..

 

 

This has been discussed on other forums. Its complete bs, and I think you should remove it.

 

Here's a quote from Dan Underwood in response to this same petition:

 

"Nope! It is true there has been a loss of habitat but that is due to water front development. I would argue that water front development has caused more damage than the oil spill. On the east coast of Florida and as far as I can tell from Tampa south there has been no impact from the oil spill and H. zosterae are still plentiful in that region. It may be true that the population in the oil infected areas are impacted, but the species is in no danger of extinction. Words like extinction are used to have an impact. Political speak if you will.

 

I strongly disagree about the mating and life span. I have yet to see any indication that they form a monogamous relationship. Both wild and captive specimens seem to be opportunistic in mating. As for life expectancy, I have some that are well over 2 years old. In the wild, the biggest impact on life expectancy is predation. They live in an area where juveniles from many species including game fish are found and begin their life. High densities of shrimp. If it weren't for predation, I believe the area where H. zosterae are found would be over run with them.

 

There have been a couple of other articles that have touted the same thing. One article tried to say that H. zosterae only mate a 3 or 4 times a year. If that is the case, why is there a daily ritual? From what I seen as a breeder, some will mate every 2 weeks like clockwork. In the wild, I find pregnant males year round even in the winter months with water temperatures in the upper 50's.

 

Hurricanes Frances and Jeanne did a tremendous amount of damage to the area. The grass flats were all but wiped out. Finding H. zosterae after the hurricanes was very difficult. Within a year the population was rebounding and by the second year, you would have never known the hurricanes had an impact on the population.

 

Dan"

 

 

Not only is the petition poorly researched, but also the 68 page paper that was submitted with it. They used information from 10-20 years ago. Well before breeders like Dan started supplying 90% of the market with captive bred seahorses. Honestly, signing that petition can only be detrimental.

[ZephNYC]

Very few large seahorses are monogamous..

 

 

This has been discussed on other forums. Its complete bs, and I think you should remove it.

 

Here's a quote from Dan Underwood in response to this same petition:

 

"Nope! It is true there has been a loss of habitat but that is due to water front development. I would argue that water front development has caused more damage than the oil spill. On the east coast of Florida and as far as I can tell from Tampa south there has been no impact from the oil spill and H. zosterae are still plentiful in that region. It may be true that the population in the oil infected areas are impacted, but the species is in no danger of extinction. Words like extinction are used to have an impact. Political speak if you will.

 

I strongly disagree about the mating and life span. I have yet to see any indication that they form a monogamous relationship. Both wild and captive specimens seem to be opportunistic in mating. As for life expectancy, I have some that are well over 2 years old. In the wild, the biggest impact on life expectancy is predation. They live in an area where juveniles from many species including game fish are found and begin their life. High densities of shrimp. If it weren't for predation, I believe the area where H. zosterae are found would be over run with them.

 

There have been a couple of other articles that have touted the same thing. One article tried to say that H. zosterae only mate a 3 or 4 times a year. If that is the case, why is there a daily ritual? From what I seen as a breeder, some will mate every 2 weeks like clockwork. In the wild, I find pregnant males year round even in the winter months with water temperatures in the upper 50's.

 

Hurricanes Frances and Jeanne did a tremendous amount of damage to the area. The grass flats were all but wiped out. Finding H. zosterae after the hurricanes was very difficult. Within a year the population was rebounding and by the second year, you would have never known the hurricanes had an impact on the population.

 

Dan"

 

 

Not only is the petition poorly researched, but also the 68 page paper that was submitted with it. They used information from 10-20 years ago. Well before breeders like Dan started supplying 90% of the market with captive bred seahorses. Honestly, signing that petition can only be detrimental.

 

Wow....hey im just the messenger. But i will bring this to the attention of the person that passed it to me and consider removing the post.

[Meus]

Wow....hey im just the messenger. But i will bring this to the attention of the person that passed it to me and consider removing the post.

 

Messengers normally work two ways

[Whys]

Messengers normally work two ways

Not when you kill'em.

 

Seems like there's always a new petition up to protect something every year. Also seems like the great majority never go anywhere. You said there is captive breeding, yes? Sorry, it's been a verbose conversation and I may have missed something. But I figure as long as there is captive bred, then what's the real difference? Limited varieties? Limited gene pool? It's a genuine question.

 

Do any of these petitions carve out exemptions for legitimate breeders? That would seem a good common ground from which all could benefit. Anyway, just my ruminations as I wonder if BVN will ever find itself petitioned.

[Meus]

Not when you kill'em.

 

Seems like there's always a new petition up to protect something every year. Also seems like the great majority never go anywhere. You said there is captive breeding, yes? Sorry, it's been a verbose conversation and I may have missed something. But I figure as long as there is captive bred, then what's the real difference? Limited varieties? Limited gene pool? It's a genuine question.

 

Do any of these petitions carve out exemptions for legitimate breeders? That would seem a good common ground from which all could benefit. Anyway, just my ruminations as I wonder if BVN will ever find itself petitioned.

 

The petitions basically stop everyone from dealing with and handling the species, unless you have a scientific license.. Dwarfs probably won't have a problem with gene pools, because there are already so many in the hands of breeders like Dan. And, they are so prolific out in the wild that the occasional collection of even up to hundreds has little effect on the wild population. Literally, over 2 dozen of these seahorses can live in one square foot of seagrass. Not only that, seagrass beds themselves are under protection. Thus, you can collect the seahorses, but their habitat cannot be destroyed legally. Not only that, the seagrass beds are doing better today than they have been in decades. As of last year(2011), the conservation group that made this petition, and others like it have milked over $37 million dollars from the gov. IMHO, it will be more worth it to protect the habitat, than declare the species endangered. If the grass beds stay around, so will the seahorses. If the seahorses are labeled as endangered, no one will be allowed to sell/buy, import/export them. Effectively removing all possibility of captive breeding. The same thing happened in FL to licensed collectors and and data collectors of turtles.

 

Dan said this about a similar question to doubting whether or not it will go through:

"While I would like to believe that, they successfully got turtles listed on the state list. Effectively did in all the licensed collectors and data collection as a result and now there isn't enough manpower to curtail the illegal collectors nor do they report stats. Look at how much effort went into the coral issue. "

 

 

A little more from Dan on the subject:

"If they make the list, forget about having them.

The anchoring on the sea grass beds brings up an interesting point. I saw where everyone was signing the petition for Studland Bay. Sadly, I didn't see where anyone researched and analyzed it this prior to signing it. Boat have been using that area as a safe haven for over a hundred years. The amount of boats there during the season has remained fairly consistent for several years. Only recently has the seagrasses moved into the anchorage areas and despite the boats, it has expanded and done very well. Likewise, the seahorses have done well. According to the petitioners, seahorses have only recently been found there. Yet, many residents have reported that seahorses have been there for many years with some accounts being over 50 years. This info is total dismissed as hearsay. When one looks at both sides of the issue objectively with all the information, it would seem there is no need to make this a no anchor zone especially since the boating community is already trying to get voluntary no anchoring in some of the areas.

 

Seagrasses come and go, often in cycles that has nothing to do with man. Many things in nature are like this. Even global warming and ice ages. Locally we have an area that is for recreational use. I don't know how many boats are there on the weekends, but I guess well over 500 through both Saturday and Sunday and more on holiday weekends. The recreation boating season here is much of the year. Seagrasses are now starting to fill in the area. For as long as I have been out there, over 30 years, this has been a sandy area. My fear is that some group with the intent to do good will try to make this area off limits. Doing this would cause the boats to go elsewhere which basically leaves the small islands in the lagoon. This would cause much more harm to the environment as boats would have to go longer distances thus burn more fuel. The island are surrounded by shallow grassy areas and much of this would sustain propeller damage. The sheer number of islands and people would make enforcement impossible. People would leave trash on the islands, cut down plants for fires etc. Given that the grasses are able to grow under such circumstances, it just doesn't make sense."

 

For those that don't know Dan Underwood is my most respected hobbiest. Not only is he extremely knowledgeable, but he also runs one of the largest captive breeding seahorse facilities in the U.S.

 

"Do any of these petitions carve out exemptions for legitimate breeders?"

I've never seen one that allows breeders to sell their stock. The problem is the petition is to get the species on the endangered list, thus making all trade effectively stop.

 

"You said there is captive breeding, yes? Sorry, it's been a verbose conversation and I may have missed something. But I figure as long as there is captive bred, then what's the real difference? Limited varieties? Limited gene pool? It's a genuine question."

 

By putting the species on the endangered list, even captive breeders will not be allowed to sell.

 

A worthy article to read:

Reef Ramblings

 

I apologize for any repetition or discombobulation thoughts. My slight-ADD brain tends to wander when I type up large posts...

[metrokat]

Tl dr

[Meus]

Tl dr

 

Short form:

 

Don't sign the petition, its made by bad people, who waste money and by signing it you will force Alto into keeping or culling all of her babies, and she will never get to buy more to widen her tank's gene pool, nor will she be able to sell or even give away any.

[ZephNYC]

Hey...my intentions were good!!! Yall happy now??? Btw...I do breed dwarf seahorses.

[Meus]

Hey...my intentions were good!!! Yall happy now??? Btw...I do breed dwarf seahorses.

 

Good intentions don't always lead to good results. Also, if you are a breeder, why are you trying to get them off the market? One would think that breeders of all people would want to keep selling their broods..

[Euphyllia]

Erpdertz? (Updates?)

[altolamprologus]

Updatayz?

The babies are getting bigger and bigger. Other than that, nothing has changed.