T. crocea in jbj 12dx, stock lights

[Caesar777]

Either way, that's a Maxima, which is slightly less fragile than crocea as far as lighting and conditions--that's the only reason it's gone this far. And again...Just wait.

[Fishfreak218]

Originally posted by Caesar777

I know what you mean, hon. You're so hard-headed, thinking you know it all just because you can throw out some scientific jargon. It's not how it is in the real world--this isn't in the books. Again, on the clam-in-the-stock-NC... IT'S BEEN DONE! It doesn't work. Being simpler animals, however, it takes clams, corals, hydrozoans, etc. much longer to die from poor conditions than mammals or even fish.... a couple of months, up to 6 months for some corals. That's why having had an animal like that for "a month" or "a few months" means NOTHING. It's irritating that you try to mask this endeavor as some kind of noble experiment. You just want an animal you can't have, and keep it anyway. Again, why not get a ribbon eel, or a mandarin? A FEW people have had success, and you're smart, so why not you? BECAUSE it CAN'T be done. 99.99999% of the time... And is it worth it to kill 10,000 ribbon eels or mandarins for that one that survives? I sure hope you say no.

 

WOW...good point on the: "and is it worth it to kill 10,000 ribbon eels or mandarins for that one that survieves?"

yup..i have to agree here.....

Josh

[il0vepez]

$(10,000 ribbon eels + 12gal) > $(1 ribbon eel + 500gal)

 

So, which number is wrong? I didn't catch you the last time. Where has someone used a cyan luxeon LED flood to light a crocea? I didn't catch you the last time.

[Caesar777]

Not for money, but wow, nice answer. Shows your compassion. It's all about money. Oh well... When the ocean is completely depleted of all multicellular life, I guess it won't be an issue. And it's not far off.

[Fishfreak218]

Originally posted by il0vepez

$(10,000 ribbon eels + 12gal) > $(1 ribbon eel + 500gal)

 

So, which number is wrong? I didn't catch you the last time.  Where has someone used a cyan luxeon LED flood to light a crocea?  I didn't catch you the last time.

 

$(10,000 ribbon eels + 12gal) > $(1 ribbon eel + 500gal)

 

WTF???..what are you trying to say here??? i dont understand

[Caesar777]

which number is wrong?

 

WATTAGE, dearie, Amount of energy. Construct an LED panel that's covered with LED's and fills your entire hood, and then MAYBE you could be on to something.

 

Anyway, again...That's a Maxima. Nice try, though. :rolleyes; You're really kind of a jerk, aren't you? You just don't care.

[Fishfreak218]

sorry to interupt but why do people say an LED...it should be a LED..you only say an if the next words firt letter is a voul..

(A,E,I,O,U)..srry..just had to say..it sounds so weird

josh

[il0vepez]

Wattage refers to amount of energy in terms of heat, not light. It refers to how much it costs to run, per unit time. Wattage has no bearing, what so ever, on light output.

 

I didn't get my clam for the ocean, for the fifth time. It was aquacultured. That is why it has scutes/flutes/scales, whatever.

 

If I constructed an LED panel that covered my whole hood, it still wouldn't have the light output of this device I purchased.

 

Yes, its about money. If I wanted to save money I would have bought a lifetime pass to the aquarium in Atlanta.

 

Biggest single piece of aquarium glass in the world, so I hear. <---Here say

 

And, here say is absolutely meaningless.

[il0vepez]

sounds like how I pronounce annelid

[il0vepez]

Originally posted by Caesar777

Not for money, but wow, nice answer. Shows your compassion. It's all about money. Oh well... When the ocean is completely depleted of all multicellular life, I guess it won't be an issue. And it's not far off.

 

Are you talking about like, geologically, or like, the next ten minutes? Because like, I really want a car stereo, but like I can't afford one, and like, my neighbor's car is like totally unlocked.

[lgreen]

I think reef n ale best summed things up...

 

i like unicorns.

[baris90]

>>>

Yes, normal LED's do not put off much light. The limiting factor behind the light output of an LED is the junction temperature. If I could maintain a low junction temperature, then this array of LED's could theoretically put off as much light as say, 1500 normal LEDs. This is accomplished by separating the thermal and electrical components of the LED array. If I were to maintain ambient temperature at the junctions (not possible with my setup), then the light output would be on the order of 1300 lumens. However, 600 lumens is a more practical number. Now, all of this light will excite peridinin and about 50% of the light will reach crocea's mantle, the other half will miss. An MH setup generally puts off about 25000 lumens. However, this light is full spectrum, and only about 80% of the spectrum will excite peridinin. Now, you must take into consideration that not only is the MH lighting crocea, but it also lights everything else in the tank and even a few things not in the tank. If you were to assume that it illuminated about 300in2 (that's about 17" on the square), then only about 1% of the MH light will actually illuminate the clam (about 3in2). So, 0.8x0.01x25000=200 and 1.0x0.50x600=300.>>>>

 

I think this paragraph explains il0vepez's logic pretty well. iL0vepes: I think you should use the word "luxeon" and not "LED" from now on as some people tend to forget the beginning of the paragraph when they are at the end of it. It is quiet obvious from what you are saying that what you are using is not regular LEDs and for some reason people don't get that point.

[reef n ale]

lgreen This thread is cracking me up! It's almost like the old afiser threads... except with big fancy words.

 

Rob

 

disclaimer-not a shot at afiser

[lgreen]

lol

 

In my professional opinion, it seems the real underlying issue here is just simply who has the bigger wang. Sorry Caeser777, i guess your out on that one

(or perhaps that means you win by default depending on how you look at things...)

[Caesar777]

Hee hee.

[Reef_Mad_Man]

hmmmm... ok ....

 

Clams are rather simple animals anatomically. They have two shells, and very basic organs and organ systems. Their most remarkable feature is their algal symbionts. Clams have a shell (duh). Two shell halves are connected at the bottom by a joint that consists of 4 "teeth" that interlock. When viewing a clam from the bottom, you will notice a large hole, this is the byssal orifice. Clams build their shell by uptaking calcium from the water, much like stony corals build their skeletons. The adductor muscle is connected to both halves of the shell, and is responsible for the opening and closing of the two halves.

 

Clams have a very simple cardiovascular system, a small heart, with two main arteries and two main veins. They have gills, which provide for gas exchange and filtering of small food particles, and kidneys for the removal of toxic metabolic byproducts from the blood.

 

Clams possess a very basic nervous system, consisting only of nerve ganglia (bundles) which control the organs and organ systems, and also receive sensory data from the clams iridiphores (eye like organs). Notice when you pass your hand over a clam creating a shadow, the clams closes up. The iridiphores can only sense the amount of incoming light.

 

Clams do have a digestive tract and excretory system. Suspended food particles from the gills where they travel down nutritional channels to a mouth, down the esophagus, and into the stomach where the food is broken down. The foodstuff is then passed to intestines where nutrients are absorbed and waste excreted through the anus. The kidneys secrete toxic waste into the outcurrent siphon.

 

Sexually, clams are simultaneous hermaphrodites, meaning they all possess both testes and ovaries. However, whereas the male gonads are active when the clam is young, the ovaries are only active when the animal has reached maturity.

 

Of great importance to the smaller of the tridachnid species is the byssal organ and gland. They byssal organ is secured within the animal by four muscles. Threads are produced by the gland which secure the clam to substrate. This keeps them from sloshing around in the ocean current, and helps to keep them situated for optimum exposure of the mantle to light. Which bring us to the mantle and the algal symbionts. The mantle is the part of the clam with the gorgeous colors and patterning. It can extend and recess into the shell halves. There are two parts of the mantle, a lateral mantle which is attached to the sides of the shell, and the syphonal mantle- the pretty part us clam freaks lust for. The syphonal mantle has two openings, the big incurrent opening, where water passes in and goes through the gills, and the excurrent opening, where water is expelled.

 

The zooxanthellae are housed here in the syphonal mantle, as are the iridiphores mentioned above. Zooxanthellae are microscopic algae, and can produce fabulously colored pigments, most likely the purpose of these pigments is to protect the algae from harmful UV rays.

 

Tridachnid clams differ from most other bi-valves with this symbiotic relationship. Clams carry up to 10x the number of these symbionts per square (insert convenient unit of measurement here) than corals. They can change the population density apparently by phagocytosis, and possibly also excreting them through the channel system. Up until 1992 it was assumed that these zooxanthellae were housed in the blood vessels of the mantle. This seems reasonable as it would give an easy explanation of how the algae transported nutrition to the clam. A big wrench was thrown into the works when it was discovered that the algae live in closed channels which run from the mantle into the stomach. In juvenile clams the zooxanthellae first appear in the stomach, so it can be hypothesized that the zooxanthellae then travel an upward path into the mantle.

 

The big question is: how does the algae get the nutrition to the clam? Its possible that the products of photosynthesis and the dark cycle which produces carbohydrate travel down the channel system into the stomach. Its unclear to me, and apparently unclear to Knop after reading the book, exactly what mechanism is responsible here. Hopefully a few weeks sitting in the bio library will yield more answers on the role of zooxanthellae in clam nutrition.

 

 

 

Now, on to something a bit more interesting to the general public...

 

Differences in the species of Tridachna clams.

 

T. crocea is the smallest of the giant clams. Typically they grow to 5-6 inches in length. Croceas live in dense colonies in shallow, and intensely lit areas. This accounts for their often beautiful blue and green pigmentation. Croceas can dig themselves into rocks by using their smooth "file like" shells mechanically in combination with acidic secretions to soften the rocks. The shells of T. crocea are typically football (american football) shaped, and although typically smooth, the uppermost part of the shell may have pronounced growth scales.

 

T. maxima can reach a maximum of 12-16 inches, but adults are often a little smaller. They are also considered to be "high light" clams, and can have blue and green mantles, like T. crocea. T. maxima has much more pronounced growth scales on its shells, and the shells are longer than T. crocea. Maximas are generally considered to be the hardier of the two.

 

 

 

T. derasa can reach up to 50-60cm long. Although not immediately as striking as maximas or croceas, they are very handsome in their own way. Nice specimens have a fluorescent blue rim around the mantle. with blue and yellow lines on a goldish background. Derasas have smooth shells. T. derasa come from 4-20m deep waters, the outer edge of the reef.

 

T. squamosa reaches 20-24 inches long. Their mantles are speckled with greens, blues, browns, yellows, and orange spots and bands. Most of the ones seen in the aquarium trade have greenish dots, on a light brown background. The shell of squamosa is very distinct in that its scales are very pronounced. Squamosa comes from a depth of down to 18m.

 

T. giga is the largest of all the clams, with the largest shells of the speciment measuring almost 55 inches long. Giga has a smooth shell, and usually a lime green mantle, with small blue spots. T. giga comes from down to 20m deep.

 

Of these clams, T. crocea is generally considered to be the most difficult to keep, followed by T. maxima. I suspect this may be due to their high light requirements.

 

 

 

Keeping the giant clams in the home aquaria:

 

Probably the most important element to consider here is lighting. T. max and T. crocea typically come from highly lit areas. Knop recommends using metal halide lighting, and perhaps actinic supplementation, and I happen to agree. I know people who have kept their maximas and croceas under NO, VHO, and power compact fluorescent lighting, but I also know quite a few who have had their clams lose intensity, and in some cases starving to death over the course of 6 months to a year.

 

Maximas and croceas typically have a higher density of zooxanthellae, and rely heavily on the nutrition provided by the algaes. This may account for the successes of people keeping these species in high light, low plankton (big honkin' skimmer) tank along with SPS corals. Derasa, squamosa, and giga all come from deeper in the ocean, and therefore have less of a light requirement than crocea and maxima. I could go into a long scientific discussion about lighting a home aquaria, but I believe that has been covered at some point in our lecture series.

 

If it hasnt, the bottom line is that we must try our best to duplicate the settings that our animals came from. 2 40w bulbs over a 55g aquarium isn't even coming close to the amount of sunlight a critter from 10 feet under the water is usually getting. According to the lectures here and on fishroom by Chris Paris, we typically don't even get close to natural light intensity in home aquariums, even when we have MH lighting.

 

Synopsis: Maximas and croceas need a bunch of light. Expect your clams beautiful pigmentation to fade if you don't have it, and expect the clam to die.

 

Derasa, giga, squamosa come from deeper waters and you can obviously get away with less light (although you will want to favor the blue spectrum in your lighting arrangement).

 

 

 

Water Current: Clams need water current, but they don't like strong, direct current.

 

Calcium: Clams need 400-450 mg/l calcium, and 7-12 dKH hardness according to Knop. This can be achieved by kalkwasser dosing, Ca reactor, dual part additives.

 

pH: Knop recommends a range of 8.0-8.1 as optimal with 7.9-8.2 as the extreme ranges. Most well run reeftanks these days run at 8.2-8.4 pH, and I haven't yet seen a problem under these conditions.

 

 

 

Additives: Here we run into the ever present problem of how-much-of- this-element-does-our- organism-need. We know the animals use them, we don't know how much, although with the advent of cheaper, more accurate test kits we may be able to figure it out.

 

I add a full spectrum trace element product, strontium, and iodine in the form of lugols solution. Knop only says to add trace elements, and that's as far as he goes. He also advises to add vitamins in the form of a concentrated liquid. I'm not sure I agree, but I'm hardly at the level of Daniel Knop, so I'll shut up about it.

 

Water temp: Knop advises to keep the tank between 25-32 deg C with 22 to 34 being the extreme range. The main concern here is keeping the water temp stable as the clams react poorly to sudden changes.

 

Water Quality: Things get kinda weird here. Everything we usually think about in terms of keeping a reeftank is contraindicated. The symbiotic zooxanthellae of the tridachnids need nitrogenous waste as a fuel. The waste produced by the clam itself though filter feeding is utilized as a source, but such filter feeding may not be taking place in a highly skimmed aquarium. Knop suggests ~2ppm nitrate as being optimal. Dick Perrin likes (as of a year ago at least) to keep his nitrates at ~8ppm. This can be added in the form of a sodium nitrate solution, or an ammonium nitrate solution.

 

I'm sure this is gonna come up, so I'll just cover it now: yes, anecdotally I have heard of the usage of human urine as a source of nitrogenous waste in clam farms and tanks (by sober people no less).

 

The other concern here with water quality is that most of us employ pretty heaving skimming. Clams are built to filterfeed. Knop recommends using a solution of baking yeast and water, or a commercial preparation. Unfortunately I haven't seen such a preparation available in america. I have seen a planktonic algae preparation available though. Knop also discusses the use of blood as a food source. For those of you unfamiliar with phlebotomy, I suggest you consult a medical professional before attempting this <. I have not as of yet spiked a vein for my clams, but it is an interesting consideration. Knop mentioned the problem of possibly spreading pathogens through this method, although unless the host providing the blood was in a state of septicemia, I don't see it as a huge concern.

 

Anecdotally, I know of people keeping T. maximas and T. croceas in heavily skimmed SPS tanks for about five years (and still going strong).

 

Purchasing a clam: When purchasing a clam, be very particular in choosing one. Look closely at the mantle for any signs of bleaching at all. Pass your hand over the clams to see if they retract in reaction to the change in light, if they dont, pass the clam up. Look at the byssal opening for any signs of injury or tearing. I've seen clams in such bad shape that there was no byssal organ at all, just an empty hole. If you can, look under the mantle for parasitic snails.

 

Gently acclimate your clam to its new lighting. It may have been sitting in the dark for a few hours during shipping, or under inadequate lighting at the dealers. Shield it from intense light, gradually working your way up full light. Typically I use a sheet or two of "eggcrate" light diffusing material.

 

I just set it on the tank over the clam, and every few days I leave the eggcrate on for a little less time. There is no real set amount of time on this. Observing your clam will be your best guide.

 

Placement of clam: Place the clam with the mantle up towards the light. Alot of times you will get your clam already attached to rock or a clamshell, or something else. This may or may not make your life easier depending on your tank. You can either place the clam somewhere and observe it for signs of good health (mantle expansion, not trying to move), or you can cut the byssal threads.

 

 

 

This is done by poking, prodding, tapping the soft tissue surrounding the byssal threads. If all goes well it will retract and reveal the byssal threads. Take a sharp instrument, and cut the threads. You must be careful not to pull the clam from its attachment, or irreparable damage may be done to the byssal organ, in which case your clam may be a world of trouble. I have heard of some croceas and maximas living after losing their byssal gland, but the chances of survival are slim to none IMO. After the threads are cut, place the clam where you think you want it to be. Don't wedge it into a rock, or it will not be able to open fully. Place it on a rock shelf, or possibly the substrate. This is a long standing argument about placing a clam on the substrate. Some warn of bristleworms. Knop thinks there is some chemical defense mechanism that clams employ to keep the bristleworms away. I've heard of clams being on an aragonite substrate for 3 years now with no problems. I personally don't see it as being a big threat. It may take months to figure out where your clam wants to be. Observing it will give you a sensitivity to its "moods", and eventually you'll get it figured out.

 

Do _not_ glue, cement, or epoxy your clam to anything if it keeps trying to move. Just keep trying.

 

Problems: There are alot of pathogens and a few parasites that can injure a clam in the home aquaria. I am only going to go over the most prevalent.

 

Pyramidelline snails can be a problem. They prevented me from getting one of the nicest croceas I've ever seen. Even worse, they can injure or even kill a clam. These are small elongated snails with whitish shells. Look for them at night feeding on the mantle of the clam. If you have them, pick them off by hand. Juvenile coris wrasse and the sixline wrasse both predate these snails and can be utilized to fight off the little buggers. (unfortunately they also decimate the copepod population of a reeftank).

 

Murex snails bore their way into the clam shells by dissolving the shell. Personally I have never observed these snails, so my advice is that if you see a snail trying to munch through your clam shell, remove it.

 

There are infectious pathogens that can infect a clam. Of those that have been documented, are Vibrio sp, Ricksettia, and Perkinsus. The bad news is that Knop says there is no hope.

 

I'd be interested in knowing if Dr. Bingmans chloramphenicol protocol used with RTN cases in SPS would be effective against Vibrio infections.

 

Environmental factors also play a part in clam pathology. Generalized bleaching can be caused by lack of nitrate. Localized and central bleaching can be caused by damage from subjecting the animal to light conditions without proper acclimation.

 

Knop also lists damage by heat, cold, low salinity, high salinity, heavy metal poisoning. I see little need to go into the details on those.

 

Thit pretty much concludes my lecture. I've covered most of what I consider to be relevant to the hobbyist. On the other hand, I've barely scraped the tip of the iceberg.

But this should cover any other less than ilteligent thoughts running through your head Pez.

 

 

Ps: unicorns suck and every one knows I have the biggest wang!

THank you! I'm here all week! badump bump! LOL!

[lgreen]

holy crap batman.

 

you just need to cite your sources and you'll be ready to publish.

[mikejones]

good job reef mad man.

[Reef_Mad_Man]

Most situations do not call for or need the total break down of a animals inner workings. A simple diagnostic run of your tank will usualy turn up the problem.

But When you are faced with a "mr. smarty pants" you have to break out the knowledge just to convince cetain people they dont know it all and are usualy 100 percent wrong on most things they post. LOL!

but I am usualy WAY to LAZY to do that! LOL!

 

I aint publishing JACK!! Not my forte'. My sources are , google, google, and google! Plus my own experience. LOL!

 

Plus this was more of a "spanking" I enjoyed giving!

You cant keep a reef for over a decade and never learn anything LOL!

[il0vepez]

Reef_Mad_Man

 

You totally ripped off David C. Potts, among others. You should really site your sources when you quote someone word for word, and use quotation marks.

[Cellenzweig]

Wattage refers to amount of energy in terms of heat, not light.

Wattage refers to the amount of electricity used (Voltage x current). It does not directly refer to heat OR light.

 

Watt can also refer to the amount of work being done when referring to mechanical energy. 1 Watt = 1 Joule per second.

[Perpetual98]

[threadjack]

 

Originally posted by Fishfreak218

sorry to interupt but why do people say an LED...it should be a LED..you only say an if the next words firt letter is a voul..

(A,E,I,O,U)..srry..just had to say..it sounds so weird

josh

 

It has to do with the pronunciation of the letter 'L'

 

It 'sounds' like it starts with an 'E' therefore you write it as 'an LED array'

 

[/threadjack]

[Caesar777]

Yup...It's "el-ee-dee", not "led" like Led Zeppelin.

[Fishfreak218]

oooooo...gotcha...lol..srry

[il0vepez]

You're right, a wattage rating does in fact refer to current times voltage, as the power of heat makes no sense what so ever.

 

However, the most effecient light sources still use 80% of the applied power to create heat. The other 20% will soon be heat, after the light is absorbed by the surroundings. Unless, you are going to use the photon pressure to do work somehow. Such things have been done.