T. crocea in jbj 12dx, stock lights

[il0vepez]

Originally posted by BigBlue

Pez, you've got to do more research and once you read up on clams you'll see why everyone is pushing for MH lighting.

 

IME and from my reading - Tridacna clams derive their color based on their depth in the reef.  The blue specimens develop that color as a filter to protect it's flesh from the high lighting it receives at the top of the reef.  The more brown the deeper the water it's suited to.  Therefore the more intense the clam the more light it expects.  There are other differences based on species (derasa's are more hardy, etc.) but as light is concerned that's driving factor.

 

You need to be concerned with the PAR and intensity of the lighting, not so much the spectrum.  MH lighting will give you the highest PAR of any type lighting (some will argue T5 is better but it'll be hard to stick a T5 in a nanocube AFAIK).  PAR (Photosynthetically Available Radiation) is a direct measure of the light available at a certain depth.

 

PAR is defined as the number of photons between 400 and 700 nm. All of the light output of these LEDs fall in that range. (That means no UV).

 

The average 20deg LED gives off lumen. Search for luxeon. These are not your average LED. I've got an array of 18 on order. Caesar's post convinced me.

[lgreen]

hmm...

 

well you'll have to check it with a light meter and see what kind of PAR it has. Interesting.

[SeanB]

Originally posted by Imaexpat2

Yes indeed, it would need to be attached to something small that makes it easy to move.  This is the reason I have scammed on the clam shell halfs at the LFS.  Each of my clams are nestled away in one which makes moving the clam from one tank to another, or aqau-scaping or just relocating it to another more appropriate spot in the tank possible.

 

Here's a place where you can get acrylic clam cradles.

http://www.nicksacrylicreef.com/Livestock_...ccessories.html

[BigBlue]

What do you have planned for dealing with the heat? From what I see so far they run hot and require a heatsink.

 

It'll be interesting to see how it works out. Might use something like that to dust off the old eclipse 12 for some low light corals.

[Cellenzweig]

One Luxeon runs extremely hot, nevermind 18. I hope you have a system planned to remove the heat...

[il0vepez]

The MF says something like, "can be used without a heat sink, but for better performance..." when describing a single luxeon. So, heat will certainly be an issue.

 

The LEDs are mounted on a material to which I should be able to glue a regular old heat sink. Search for luxeon flood, that is the name of the product I ordered. I pulled up a pdf from the manufacturer. If I'm reading this right it should create about 25W (24V x 1050mA) of heat, worst case scenario. More realistic would be 21W.

 

So, I've found a heatsink that measures (in mm) 100x70x13 with a fan that measures 70x70x10. The LED board measures 66x62x7.4. Given a little room for wiring, that gives me a stack height of about 0.9" without the fan and 1.5" with the fan. I measure about 0.6" from the base of the plastic guard to the reflector, and another 1" to 1.5" between the plastic top and the reflector, depending on how I can rearrange the existing electronics.

 

The plan was to snip away at that extra bit of reflector, leaving two strips running from side to side. Then I could sorta mount the whole thing to those strips. The only problem (obvious to me) is that one of the existing screws mounts right where I want to light to go.

[Caesar777]

I wasn't chiding you--I was being serious. Lots of people are touting the "new" T5's. Wide range of colors, some people put maybe ten tubes ("fatty setup", hehe) over their reefs, in half a dozen different shades of blue and white. Looks really nice, and I've seen clams and SPS do well under them. My LFS has a lovely setup with T5's.

 

Also... Keep in mind that 150 watts of MH uses the same amount of electricity as 150 watts of fluorescent; I'm not quite sure of your point about "electricity costs". AND it puts off "higher quality" light, though of course there's argument on that, and it's beyond the point of arguing that point at this point in time...heh.

[il0vepez]

Caesar, whose post are your responding to? Please read what people have written instead of simply stating the obvious.

[Caesar777]

In response to: "You are just being mean, not helpful."

 

[il0vepez]

Originally posted by Caesar777

Keep in mind that 150 watts of MH uses the same amount of electricity as 150 watts of fluorescent; I'm not quite sure of your point about "electricity costs"

 

Possibly (although I'm starting to think not probably), if you were to read others' posts more carefully and less critically, then you would understand my point better.

 

Of your many, many posts to me (some of which have elicited criticism from other members for your flaming me), none have been insightful or helpful. My only question to you to date was about sea stars, and your response was, "who cares".

 

I am well aware of how power works. Thank you though, for pointing out that 150W=150W. As always, your condescension is not appreciated.

[il0vepez]

I know this is not what everyone out there believes, but here is the basic theory I'm working on:

 

Peridinin-chlorophylla absorbs strongly (if not strongest) at 505nm.

 

Peridinin acts as a reducing agent, as well as a chromophore.

 

Oxidation occurs in cells becuase of high energy light. This oxidation may either (a) destroy the chl protein, or ( destroy per. It is also possible that singlet oxygen or triplet chl may relax without incurring cellular damage; however, it is unlikely.

 

Selectively lighting crocea with appropiate energy light will allow for photosynthesis without excessive oxidation. Therefore, photosynthetic apparati will be more abundant and photosynthesis more effective.

 

I cannot directly provide any references, but here is some info:

 

Ana Damjanovic', Thorsten Ritz, and Klaus Schulte. Biophysical Journal. Excitation Transfer in the Peridinin-Chlorophyll-Protein of Amphidinium carterae. 79.4(2000) 1695-705

[victoly]

Someones got a big word complex.... Way to copy and paste!

[il0vepez]

Hmm... not sure what you're talking about victoly. What did I copy and paste, exactly?

[il0vepez]

Because if you actually agree with what is written, then you will be the first to believe what I'm saying. However, I fear you are randomly searching through forums to belittle people. Either way, you probably haven't read the reference.

[baris90]

It is really upsetting to see people trying to bash someone like this. il0vepez has a theory and he wants to experiment it. He is not saying MH lights won't work, he is saying he has another idea that might work. And he lays out the data why he thinks his theory might work, and some people here just ignores this and instead of criticizing his ideas, they bash him personally. And I don't know why... jealousy? lazy to research? arrogant? they don't understand what is being discussed so they choose the easy way? or they just wanna be annoying???

 

I don't want to seem like I am a crazy supporter of il0vepez ideas because I don't know the system very well but as a scientist, it upsets me when people attack the personalities and not the data.

 

il0vepez: I don't know if your luxeon idea would work but it is exciting that you are willing to try. I am very interested in the outcome. keep us posted.

 

As for the paper you've cited: they use mathematical modeling to draw conclusions about the photosynthesis mechanism. I personally tend to not believe things if the method is not truly experimental. Are there other papers that measured the response of this protein directly to whatever nm of light that these LEDs have? It seems like if the excitation/emission curve that you sent is correct, it should work. but I think it really depends on what conditions that excitation/emission curve is generated, and what conditions your clam is gonna be in (e.g. pH).

[il0vepez]

Baris90, I agree that the paper is not the best, but research on the matter appears to be lacking. I haven't come across any mechanism that is very well supported. Although, I no longer have easy access to SciFinder. But I still have access to most journals, so send me any refs you find (if you're looking).

 

I've thought about what you've said about conditions, and I believe that good data, by your standards, is some time off. There are several strains of peridinin carrying symbionts in crocea that cannot be currently cultured (to my knowledge). They may require some sort of recognition for survival, who knows. So, any type of in vivo experiment is step 2 for those guys. As to the culturable strains, I'm not sure why someone hasn't run some type of cytometry on them.

 

You're absolutely right. I've had past experiences where (months of) in vitro experiments worked like a dream, and in vivo experiments gave results that I could not rationalize. Just glad I'm not a crystallographer, and it wasn't years, or decades, just months.

 

Also baris90, I'm having doubts about my original LED placement. I think I need to strip the hood down and start from scratch. That way, I may be able to add some extra ventilation, and also more water circulation (the clam is pretty well hidden from water currents).

[il0vepez]

I found an almost identical absorbance spectra. They reference another journal for isolation, but the samples were analyzed in PBS (20 mM, pH 7).

 

Chemical Physics Letters 260 (1996) 147-152

 

Excitation energy transfer in carotenoid-chlorophyll protein

complexes probed by femtosecond fluorescence decays

 

Seiji Akimoto a, Sinichi Takaichi h, Takehiko Ogata c, Yoshinobu Nishimura a,

Iwao Yamazaki a, Mamoru Mimuro d,

[Snoop]

Hey ivo lets just let this thread die no ones gaining from it but yourself

[il0vepez]

Thanks for your input Snoop. Very helpful.

[SeanB]

From the other thread where you guys are arguing about the same topic:

 

Originally posted by SeanB

Sorry to butt in here, but it seems like there is a happy medium between the two positions:

 

How about you see how it does, and if it begins to show any signs of stress, you find it another home?  There's nothing wrong with pushing the envelope a bit; anyone who disagrees has no business with a nano - just make sure you have a plan in place in case things don't go as you hope.  No reason to kill a beautiful clam.

 

BTW, based on the picture it looks good - the mantle looks good and it doesn't appear to be gaping.

[tylernt]

Well there is certainly an experimentation aspect to this hobby. If reefkeepers of yesteryear had their way, nobody would have a SW tank under 55g and we'd all be running with 1.022 SG and 76*F. So I applaud the experimenter in il0vepez.

 

However, the attitude leaves something to be desired.

That's right, here it is. Everyone firmly believes it will soon turn to goo and die

Sounds less like a scientist with a theory and a hypothesis and more like a guy with a chip on his shoulder.

 

Shrug.

[il0vepez]

Maybe I have a chip on my shoulder because I've recieved about two dozen insults, all on a topic that I never asked for advice on in the first place. This all started because I wanted help IDing a sea star.

[Caesar777]

Look...It's simple transfer of energy. LED's just don't put off much energy. Simple.

[Snoop]

Its time to let it go.

[Caesar777]

Yeah, just can't resist. Goodbye, thread.