Dino's?

[j.falk]

Algae is a good sign.  It's a step in the right direction.

[mcarroll]

2 hours ago, justinkdenny said:

I have got my nitrates up to around 15 ppm so I have backed off on dosing that and have struggled to show a reading with phosphates  using salifert kit.  We decided it might be .003 ppm.  I have dosed it along side of the nitrate from brightwell as well as heavy feeding .

Dose twice as much or twice as often (or more) to get phosphates up to >=0.10 ppm.   If you test an hour after dosing and phosphates are already reduced back to near-zero, then dose again.

 

You can't overdose.  And if you're seeing it used up that quickly, then it's being used up for very good reasons.  Reasons that you want to facilitate until you end up with >=0.10 ppm leftover in the water.   That's when you can relax and just test daily, or even maybe stop dosing, depending on how the tank overall responds.

[justinkdenny]

1 hour ago, mcarroll said:

Dose twice as much or twice as often (or more) to get phosphates up to >=0.10 ppm.   If you test an hour after dosing and phosphates are already reduced back to near-zero, then dose again.

 

You can't overdose.  And if you're seeing it used up that quickly, then it's being used up for very good reasons.  Reasons that you want to facilitate until you end up with >=0.10 ppm leftover in the water.   That's when you can relax and just test daily, or even maybe stop dosing, depending on how the tank overall responds.

Thanks, I will try this

[A.m.P]

5 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Dose twice as much or twice as often (or more) to get phosphates up to >=0.10 ppm.   If you test an hour after dosing and phosphates are already reduced back to near-zero, then dose again.

 

You can't overdose.  And if you're seeing it used up that quickly, then it's being used up for very good reasons.  Reasons that you want to facilitate until you end up with >=0.10 ppm leftover in the water.   That's when you can relax and just test daily, or even maybe stop dosing, depending on how the tank overall responds.

That's an interesting approach, I'm assuming the same could be done with nitrates?

[justinkdenny]

On 10/10/2019 at 11:59 AM, mcarroll said:

Dose twice as much or twice as often (or more) to get phosphates up to >=0.10 ppm.   If you test an hour after dosing and phosphates are already reduced back to near-zero, then dose again.

 

You can't overdose.  And if you're seeing it used up that quickly, then it's being used up for very good reasons.  Reasons that you want to facilitate until you end up with >=0.10 ppm leftover in the water.   That's when you can relax and just test daily, or even maybe stop dosing, depending on how the tank overall responds.

Well I finally got a noticable phosphate reading.  Between 0.1 and 0.25 when I tested after dosing.   Going to check again in the morning to see if it is getting used up.  When I turn all lights 100% on prime hd,  which is alot white,  you can see alot more green algea.  I think I can see pink coralline algae too.

[A.m.P]

Be sure it isn't cyano, it's easy to swing from one to the other.

[mcarroll]

11 hours ago, Amphrites said:

Be sure it isn't cyano, it's easy to swing from one to the other.

All good, IMO. 

 

If it's cyano, it's still a step away from dino's.  👊   It would also only be a phase before either green algae or coralline takes hold.  Can't recall any cases where cyano lasted long enough to talk this much about, but look I did it anyway.  😄 

 

 

[A.m.P]

Yeah, but you can, and probably should, manually remove it without a razor blade lol.

[justinkdenny]

On 10/12/2019 at 1:36 PM, mcarroll said:

All good, IMO. 

 

If it's cyano, it's still a step away from dino's.  👊   It would also only be a phase before either green algae or coralline takes hold.  Can't recall any cases where cyano lasted long enough to talk this much about, but look I did it anyway.  😄 

 

 

So when I turn all lights on ai prime(  which is much whiter than brs+) I am now noticing green algae on the glass and lots of hair algae which look brown under brs+color spectrum but green with more whites added to spectrum.  I guess this is a step in the right direction.  Brown dusting still accumulates on sand.  Phosphates and nitrates showing near zero but with the amount of hair algae, I assume it is giving me a false 0.  What would you guys recommend at this point?  Still having trouble keeping snails alive which is concerning?

[mcarroll]

25 minutes ago, justinkdenny said:

Phosphates and nitrates showing near zero but with the amount of hair algae, I assume it is giving me a false 0.

There is no false 0 unless your test kit is broken. 

 

Think of phosphate levels and photosynthesis like the oil tank on your care and its motor. 

 

Phosphate is crucial in a similar way as oil is. 

 

If the animal doing photosynthesis can't recycle enough phosphate from its internal stores and your system's "phosphate tank" is empty, it will be harmed by photosynthesis.

 

You want to maintain phosphate at around 0.10 ppm or higher. 

 

If you have to test and dose every day to keep it there, do it. 

 

Eventually you'll have to scale your feeding up to compensate at a similar level and stop dosing.  But don't let dissolved levels drop lower until you can't remember you had dino's anymore.

[seabass]

27 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

There is no false 0 unless your test kit is broken.

Agreed.  It just means that inorganic phosphate in the water column (where most corals utilize it) is undetectable.  And as you have pointed out, it doesn't mean that phosphate bound to calcium rock isn't still available for algae growth.

 

30 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

You want to maintain phosphate at around 0.10 ppm or higher.

For general reef parameters, I haven't totally bought into this level yet (IDK, I may eventually come around).  However, I agree that phosphate shouldn't be a limiting factor, so it should be detectable by a decent low range test kit.

 

@mcarroll, do you always keep phosphate this high, or just when dealing with dinos?

[justinkdenny]

1 hour ago, mcarroll said:

There is no false 0 unless your test kit is broken. 

 

Think of phosphate levels and photosynthesis like the oil tank on your care and its motor. 

 

Phosphate is crucial in a similar way as oil is. 

 

If the animal doing photosynthesis can't recycle enough phosphate from its internal stores and your system's "phosphate tank" is empty, it will be harmed by photosynthesis.

 

You want to maintain phosphate at around 0.10 ppm or higher. 

 

If you have to test and dose every day to keep it there, do it. 

 

Eventually you'll have to scale your feeding up to compensate at a similar level and stop dosing.  But don't let dissolved levels drop lower until you can't remember you had dino's anymore.

I am using salifert phosphate test kit.  I was afraid I was getting too much phosphates which was causing lots of hair algae.  I will continue to dose daily phosphate then.  Should I do the same dosing nitrate?

[mcarroll]

It may be a good idea...you don't want either one near zero while the tank is recovering.

 

You do need to adjust to the "new normal" of algae growing, and needing to be taken care of by the cleanup crew (which includes you as the #1 member).   😁

 

Don't forget to stock up snails so there's enough to do all the work...you will have to remove the thick/long stuff, but they should come behind you and keep it mowed.  If not, either they aren't finding the location for some reason (help em out) or you don't have enough snails.  Don't add too many at once and use your judgement to know when you don't need to add more.

[A.m.P]

2 hours ago, justinkdenny said:

I am using salifert phosphate test kit.  I was afraid I was getting too much phosphates which was causing lots of hair algae.  I will continue to dose daily phosphate then.  Should I do the same dosing nitrate?

My honest advice is to use the seachem dose calculator to find out exactly how much p04 you need to add to hit .05-.075 and just dose that amount over 12-24 hours (I did it up front since I was already seeing serious tissue recession in my lps). Then test the next few days and use the calculator to determine how much more to add from there.

 

Phosphorus is under planted-freshwater and you can probably just take a gallon or two out per 20g for live-rock displacement. Surprisingly enough you may find that a few weeks of elevated levels can kill off some of the uglier hairy algae's, try raising your dkh, pH, mag, and calcium to around 12, 8.5, 1600, and 450 and it might help get rid of even more pest algae (including Dino's, but it can be hard to maintain these numbers long term, though they can also lead to improved coral-growth and resiliency)

https://www.seachem.com/calculators.php

[mcarroll]

7 hours ago, seabass said:

Agreed.  It just means that inorganic phosphate in the water column (where most corals utilize it) is undetectable.  And as you have pointed out, it doesn't mean that phosphate bound to calcium rock isn't still available for algae growth.

Crucial for making "pest" dino's happy as well as anything else that needs to draw on dissolved nutrients to function or reproduce.  (And that's about everything.)

7 hours ago, seabass said:

For general reef parameters, I haven't totally bought into this level yet (IDK, I may eventually come around).  However, I agree that phosphate shouldn't be a limiting factor, so it should be detectable by a decent low range test kit.

 

@mcarroll, do you always keep phosphate this high, or just when dealing with dinos?

Just by feeding now.  Seems to be higher...

 

I don't actively do anything for nutrients other than feed, use a protein skimmer and test.  If a test shows phosphates within shouting distance of zero, I dose.  That was happening for a while when I had an intense hair algae bloom....seems like the tank is past that...nothing but coralline now.  (Last test showed 0.25 ppm PO4 and 50 ppm NO3.  Alk was +1.3 high, at 4.3 meq/L.  Ca was 425, Mg was 1350 ppm.  Tuned back the alk doser.)

 

0.10 ppm is sorta arbitrary, but the idea is just what you said....just to prevent phosphate from becoming limiting even in a "high demand" scenario.  More or less may be called for in any given situation. 

 

A dino bloom of any severity usually qualifies as high-demand for a few reasons and .10 ppm has proven out experimentally in that scenario.  Happens to also be the target level mentioned on some phosphate products intended for "plants" so maybe there's more to that level than I know. 🤷‍♂️

 

 

[justinkdenny]

So I added snails to the tank again as I only had one left.  They went lethargic like all the others  but aren't dead yet.   I dont get it.  I have been changing carbon out quite often.  I dont know if its toxins from dinos?  Haven't been doing water changes but just did 2 gallon hoping to save the snails.  Any suggestions? 

[Clown79]

1 hour ago, justinkdenny said:

So I added snails to the tank again as I only had one left.  They went lethargic like all the others  but aren't dead yet.   I dont get it.  I have been changing carbon out quite often.  I dont know if its toxins from dinos?  Haven't been doing water changes but just did 2 gallon hoping to save the snails.  Any suggestions? 

If you have a toxic form of dino's, the first thing to be effected are snails/inverts.

 

It's best to not add anything until the dino's are gone.

 

How much carbon are you using and how often is it changed?

 

How often are you changing floss?

[justinkdenny]

51 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

If you have a toxic form of dino's, the first thing to be effected are snails/inverts.

 

It's best to not add anything until the dino's are gone.

 

How much carbon are you using and how often is it changed?

 

How often are you changing floss?

I'm adding about a handful every 3 or 4 days maybe and changing floss about the same. I'm going to try to post a video in a minute.  Also I have a cleaner shrimp which is an invert and he is always happy and healthy.

[justinkdenny]

Here is the link to the video that shows what I think are dino's. 

[A.m.P]

That color and growth pattern looks like Dino's to me, mine stay low as well. I haven't had CUC deaths, but I have had coral deaths, two sps were smothered and attacked as if it were brown jelly disease, threw it in a cup and It congealed before I could even get it to the window.

Dino's are weird man, sucks to lose CUC.

[justinkdenny]

Anyone else watch the video and have comments on my situation? 

[seabass]

IDK, I feel that you have some hair algae, possibly some cyano, and maybe dinos.   The presence of bubbles doesn't confirm dinos, just pearling (O2 production during to photosynthesis).  The tank doesn't look all that terrible to me.  How much of this goes away at night?

[justinkdenny]

Just now, seabass said:

IDK, I feel that you have some hair algae, possibly some cyano, and maybe dinos.   The presence of bubbles doesn't confirm dinos, just pearling (O2 production during to photosynthesis).  The tank doesn't look all that terrible to me.  How much of this goes away at night?

I definitely have hair algae and was excited to get it. Alot of the brown on the sand disappears at night and comes back when light returns.  I dont see the stringy snot stuff people put on YouTube as dinos.  I do have some stringy stuff that covers my zoas but it is not snotty and doesn't remove easily so I assume it's some type of algae.  

[seabass]

2 minutes ago, justinkdenny said:

Alot of the brown on the sand disappears at night and comes back when light returns.

That is most likely dinos.  For people who have been successful in getting rid of them, it typically takes several weeks.  I believe people have siphoned out this material, and returned the mechanically filtered water back into the display (versus replacing it with new water).

[Clown79]

19 minutes ago, justinkdenny said:

I definitely have hair algae and was excited to get it. Alot of the brown on the sand disappears at night and comes back when light returns.  I dont see the stringy snot stuff people put on YouTube as dinos.  I do have some stringy stuff that covers my zoas but it is not snotty and doesn't remove easily so I assume it's some type of algae.  

There are more than 1 type of dino's and they don't all look the same.

 

The only real way to know is under microscope, without it you can't determine the strain of dino's.

 

I got rid of dino's in 5 weeks in my 25g and 2 weeks in my pico. I detailed every step I took in my lagoon journal.