Dino's?

[justinkdenny]

9 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Your dino's may get worse, but not from running a UV filter.  I'll circle back to this...

 

It's been pretty well demonstrated that UV filters work best when used in the display where the bloom is happening vs in the sump/filter compartment.

 

The cheapie UV filters that are integrated with a pump seem to have flow dialed in fairly well, so the killing power seems to be alright for the task.  It still has to be big enough to have an impact on the tank. 

 

So for example, a 3 watt integrated sterilizer may kill every dino passing through it, but it still may not do much if it's on a gigantic 125 Gallon tank.  (AquaUV recommends a 25 unit for a tank that size.)

 

A micron filter may be a better option for some people/some situations.

 

Getting back to the beginning with dino's getting worse in spite of UV....

 

All of these things are bandaids unless you've addressed the root of the issue, which is starving dino's.

Man I'm starving those suckers.  Nitrate is elevated with addition as needed but I have to dose phosphates every day to keep them elevated.  You should see the hair algea I'm letting grow.  It just seems they really go into the water column at night so I thought uv might assist in the process.  Can it really be detrimental to my pod population I'm trying to enhance?

[seabass]

1 hour ago, justinkdenny said:

Can it really be detrimental to my pod population I'm trying to enhance?

Several species of pods keep to surfaces where they won't be harmed.  However, anything passing through the sterilizer should die (given sufficient UV power and proper flow), this includes hatched pod eggs (nauplii) which enter the water column.

 

It sounds like @mcarroll feels it's still worth it; but I haven't read through his thread.  Years ago, I battled a bad case of dinos and tried UV to no avail.  I ended up breaking down the tank; however, this was before we knew as much about dinos as we do today.  I would hope that I'd have better luck battling dinos today.

[justinkdenny]

Just an update.  Keeping my po4 and no3 up.  Well, adding po4 but nitrate is holding it's own without additions.  Seeing some coraline algae growth and hair algae is everywhere.  I even found a bristle worm for diversity even though I started with dry rock and dipped all corals.

[mcarroll]

On 11/21/2019 at 2:20 PM, justinkdenny said:

Seeing some coraline algae growth and hair algae is everywhere.  I even found a bristle worm for diversity even though I started with dry rock and dipped all corals.

Great news!   👍

 

Keep the nutrients level, but it's time to get in there and start hand pulling that hair algae and (re)install a cleanup crew of snails to handle the areas you clean up.  They will speed along the coralline algae too.

[justinkdenny]

On 11/24/2019 at 1:13 AM, mcarroll said:

Great news!   👍

 

Keep the nutrients level, but it's time to get in there and start hand pulling that hair algae and (re)install a cleanup crew of snails to handle the areas you clean up.  They will speed along the coralline algae too.

Thanks! I have started getting some of the hair algae out and added a tailspot blenny.   Snails aren't really lethargic anymore so I'm going to pick more up soon.  The ones I have have done a great job on walls but never go to the rocks. Lol.  I need some rock climbers.

[seabass]

1 hour ago, justinkdenny said:

The ones I have have done a great job on walls but never go to the rocks.

Keeping the walls clean will encourage them to go to the rocks.  Also, you can always move them onto the rocks.

[mcarroll]

6 hours ago, justinkdenny said:

Thanks! I have started getting some of the hair algae out and added a tailspot blenny.   Snails aren't really lethargic anymore so I'm going to pick more up soon.  The ones I have have done a great job on walls but never go to the rocks. Lol.  I need some rock climbers.

True what seabass said!

 

Also, snails are apparently very memory-oriented to where they go for food....so they may simply "not know" that there's algae on the rocks.  Pick up a snail or two and place them right on a "problem spot" where algae doesn't seem to be getting attention and see if that helps.  

 

Could also be that you need more snails.  You'll know if the algae keeps getting long where you've pulled it before and where you've placed snails before.  (Remember they can't usually eat the long stuff, so use judgement on when you need to step in with hand-pulling vs when you need more snails.)

[justinkdenny]

Dino update.  Tank is blooming green film algae and hair algae like crazy.  I have been getting what I consider false low readings on phos and nitrate but I think the algae is consuming it.  Tailspot blenny works at the hair algae but doesn't seem to be making any headway.  I started adding dr Tim's waste away and atm colony to increase bacteria.  Snails are more active, less dino toxins?, so I am going to buy more tomorrow.  You will notice a film of copper brown something on the sand still that will come back every day after I siphon. Coralline is still encrusting.  Pic is with all light on to get a good look at the colors of the algae and cyno/diatoms/dino stuff.  Sorry for the long post.

[Clown79]

1 hour ago, justinkdenny said:

Dino update.  Tank is blooming green film algae and hair algae like crazy.  I have been getting what I consider false low readings on phos and nitrate but I think the algae is consuming it.  Tailspot blenny works at the hair algae but doesn't seem to be making any headway.  I started adding dr Tim's waste away and atm colony to increase bacteria.  Snails are more active, less dino toxins?, so I am going to buy more tomorrow.  You will notice a film of copper brown something on the sand still that will come back every day after I siphon. Coralline is still encrusting.  Pic is with all light on to get a good look at the colors of the algae and cyno/diatoms/dino stuff.  Sorry for the long post.

Not sure if it will be counter productive but waste away reduces phos and nitrates.

 

[Tamberav]

I have rid myself if dino in 12 hours to a few days several times with UV. It only works on certain strains that go into the water column at night. When they enter the water column.. That is when they will pass through the UV. 

 

I put mine in the back chambers and the sump and it worked fine there too. 

 

I used the IM one on my 25g and it was powerful enough for dino. I used a larger expensive one for a different tank and it eliminated them faster but they both worked. 

 

 

[justinkdenny]

On 12/6/2019 at 9:58 PM, Clown79 said:

Not sure if it will be counter productive but waste away reduces phos and nitrates.

 

Yeah this was an iffy add.  The Reefdude guy on YouTube had a special guest on a few of his long videos about dinos.  The guy was a water treatment specialist and aquarium guy maybe from elegance corals?  He recommends waste away and said it is a large mouth bacteria that consumes dinos.

[justinkdenny]

Here is a link to the video I was talking about 

 

[justinkdenny]

Here is the other one

 

 

[mcarroll]

On 12/6/2019 at 9:47 PM, justinkdenny said:

Tank is blooming green film algae and hair algae like crazy.  I have been getting what I consider false low readings on phos and nitrate but I think the algae is consuming it.

good news on the green hair algae.

 

There's no such thing as false readings on a test kit unless it's expired or you're doing the test wrong.

 

If the test comes back and says you have no nitrates or you have no phosphates then that's what's currently in the water. None.

 

It's true the algae are using it up, but don't subscribe to the idea of false readings.

 

The important thing to keep in mind is that when there are none available in the water, that is the potential starvation condition for Dinoflagellates. They are terrible at taking up nutrients in a low-availability environment. If they starve, that's what leads them to their blooming behavior when they switch over to consuming bacteria and other physical things in the tank instead of consuming dissolved nutrients.

 

This is why the usual recipe – at least for me – is to keep nutrients elevated purposefully, with dosed nutrients, well into this phase your tank is now in where green algae and coralline algae take over. And why under no circumstances would I let nutrients crash back to zero until after you have forgotten that your tank even had dinoflagellates.

 

So don't turn a good trend into a bad one — stop the waste away and other anti-nutrient strategies once and for all.

 

Do whatever it takes to keep nitrates and phosphates in the positive.  

 

Also, get after the hair algae by hand, and increase your snail crew to help.  nothing as small as your fish or snails is going to eat long hair algae. You are the largest cleanup crew members so that is your job. The rest of the crew (snails, blenny) will come in behind you and keep everything clean that you worked on. If they don't, then you know you don't have enough snails in your cleanup crew. And remember we are only talking about herbivore snails, not scavengers.

[Clown79]

1 hour ago, mcarroll said:

good news on the green hair algae.

 

There's no such thing as false readings on a test kit unless it's expired or you're doing the test wrong.

 

If the test comes back and says you have no nitrates or you have no phosphates then that's what's currently in the water. None.

 

It's true the algae are using it up, but don't subscribe to the idea of false readings.

 

The important thing to keep in mind is that when there are none available in the water, that is the potential starvation condition for Dinoflagellates. They are terrible at taking up nutrients in a low-availability environment. If they starve, that's what leads them to their blooming behavior when they switch over to consuming bacteria and other physical things in the tank instead of consuming dissolved nutrients.

 

This is why the usual recipe – at least for me – is to keep nutrients elevated purposefully, with dosed nutrients, well into this phase your tank is now in where green algae and coralline algae take over. And why under no circumstances would I let nutrients crash back to zero until after you have forgotten that your tank even had dinoflagellates.

 

So don't turn a good trend into a bad one — stop the waste away and other anti-nutrient strategies once and for all.

 

Do whatever it takes to keep nitrates and phosphates in the positive.  

 

Also, get after the hair algae by hand, and increase your snail crew to help.  nothing as small as your fish or snails is going to eat long hair algae. You are the largest cleanup crew members so that is your job. The rest of the crew (snails, blenny) will come in behind you and keep everything clean that you worked on. If they don't, then you know you don't have enough snails in your cleanup crew. And remember we are only talking about herbivore snails, not scavengers.

A+

 

 

[justinkdenny]

19 hours ago, mcarroll said:

good news on the green hair algae.

 

There's no such thing as false readings on a test kit unless it's expired or you're doing the test wrong.

 

If the test comes back and says you have no nitrates or you have no phosphates then that's what's currently in the water. None.

 

It's true the algae are using it up, but don't subscribe to the idea of false readings.

 

The important thing to keep in mind is that when there are none available in the water, that is the potential starvation condition for Dinoflagellates. They are terrible at taking up nutrients in a low-availability environment. If they starve, that's what leads them to their blooming behavior when they switch over to consuming bacteria and other physical things in the tank instead of consuming dissolved nutrients.

 

This is why the usual recipe – at least for me – is to keep nutrients elevated purposefully, with dosed nutrients, well into this phase your tank is now in where green algae and coralline algae take over. And why under no circumstances would I let nutrients crash back to zero until after you have forgotten that your tank even had dinoflagellates.

 

So don't turn a good trend into a bad one — stop the waste away and other anti-nutrient strategies once and for all.

 

Do whatever it takes to keep nitrates and phosphates in the positive.  

 

Also, get after the hair algae by hand, and increase your snail crew to help.  nothing as small as your fish or snails is going to eat long hair algae. You are the largest cleanup crew members so that is your job. The rest of the crew (snails, blenny) will come in behind you and keep everything clean that you worked on. If they don't, then you know you don't have enough snails in your cleanup crew. And remember we are only talking about herbivore snails, not scavengers.

Thank you. I purchased more snails yesterday and a sea hare that I have to bring back if it eats it all so it wont starve.  I have still been dosing nitrate and phosphate so I will continue that.  What about adding the colony bacteria.  Is that ok?  Also should I do a peroxide dip on my maze coral? It is almost completely covered with hair algae but is still alive.  

[seabass]

52 minutes ago, justinkdenny said:

should I do a peroxide dip on my maze coral?

I probably wouldn't.  However, I might consider fragging off the algae covered skeleton.

[mcarroll]

1 hour ago, justinkdenny said:

Thank you. I purchased more snails yesterday and a sea hare that I have to bring back if it eats it all so it wont starve.  I have still been dosing nitrate and phosphate so I will continue that.  What about adding the colony bacteria.  Is that ok?  Also should I do a peroxide dip on my maze coral? It is almost completely covered with hair algae but is still alive.  

Not sure about the bacteria.  Watch nutrient levels like Seabass warned.  Seems like they ought not be a problem as long as levels don't crash in the process.

 

No to the peroxide dip.  At most do a peroxide spot treatment, but I'm not sure that's warranted (yet) either.

 

I would try using your fingers to tweeze out as much algae as you can.

 

Once you've gotten as much as you can that way, consider using tweezers if it would help to get more.  (Might or might not.)

 

After that I'd really give your new CUC a chance. 

 

Put a snail on it after you're done cleaning it - with luck it'll help your work along.   This is a rare case where I'd like to have a few blue-legged hermits on the job....or an emerald crab if it was a hard-working one.   Seems like crabs (especially small ones) are well-suited cleaners for crevices, which this coral has lots of.  If you can find some TINY blue-legs, consder adding three or four.  I'm talking about the really small ones....under a 1/4" wide at the shell....maybe down to 1/8".

 

Keep up with the manual picking.  If the cleanup crew isn't keeping up with your manual efforts and you see areas you've cleaned re-growing with long algae, then add three or four new herbivore snails.  If growth is that aggressive, don't be shy about picking bigger types of snails.  I would stay reserved on the number added at any one time though.

 

If you're on top of the hand-picking and snail-adding but algae growth continues to outpace your efforts, you can kick it up another notch...

 

Tamberav suggested another good idea in deploying an in-tank UV filter.  It's good for slowing the spread of algae spores, among other things.  A micron filter like a Vortex XL or Marineland's Polishing Filter should help in the same way.  (Both reduce the number of spores that will be able to potentially settle and grow around the tank.)  It's kinda of expensive to run UV, but it has the benefit that it can be easily removed once the algae bloom has passed.

 

[justinkdenny]

16 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Not sure about the bacteria.  Watch nutrient levels like Seabass warned.  Seems like they ought not be a problem as long as levels don't crash in the process.

 

No to the peroxide dip.  At most do a peroxide spot treatment, but I'm not sure that's warranted (yet) either.

 

I would try using your fingers to tweeze out as much algae as you can.

 

Once you've gotten as much as you can that way, consider using tweezers if it would help to get more.  (Might or might not.)

 

After that I'd really give your new CUC a chance. 

 

Put a snail on it after you're done cleaning it - with luck it'll help your work along.   This is a rare case where I'd like to have a few blue-legged hermits on the job....or an emerald crab if it was a hard-working one.   Seems like crabs (especially small ones) are well-suited cleaners for crevices, which this coral has lots of.  If you can find some TINY blue-legs, consder adding three or four.  I'm talking about the really small ones....under a 1/4" wide at the shell....maybe down to 1/8".

 

Keep up with the manual picking.  If the cleanup crew isn't keeping up with your manual efforts and you see areas you've cleaned re-growing with long algae, then add three or four new herbivore snails.  If growth is that aggressive, don't be shy about picking bigger types of snails.  I would stay reserved on the number added at any one time though.

 

If you're on top of the hand-picking and snail-adding but algae growth continues to outpace your efforts, you can kick it up another notch...

 

Tamberav suggested another good idea in deploying an in-tank UV filter.  It's good for slowing the spread of algae spores, among other things.  A micron filter like a Vortex XL or Marineland's Polishing Filter should help in the same way.  (Both reduce the number of spores that will be able to potentially settle and grow around the tank.)  It's kinda of expensive to run UV, but it has the benefit that it can be easily removed once the algae bloom has passed.

 

I have looked into a uv but was afraid it would kill beneficial bacteria.  Other that that I think it's all positives.  Thanks for your wisdom guys.

[seabass]

51 minutes ago, justinkdenny said:

I have looked into a uv but was afraid it would kill beneficial bacteria.

It won't kill nitrifying bacteria (i.e. your biofilter), which reside primarily on hard surfaces.

[justinkdenny]

2 hours ago, seabass said:

It won't kill nitrifying bacteria (i.e. your biofilter), which reside primarily on hard surfaces.

Ok thanks

 

[justinkdenny]

Well no matter what I do I cant get rid of dinos.  It doesn't look stringy at all in tank.  Thought it was diatoms but doesn't it look like dinos under scope? Arrrrrrrrrrrh!  I dont know what to do.  I have followed everyone's advise and now my tank has dinos and hair algae everywhere. 

[A.m.P]

Sounds like they're starting to go away, they'll not just vanish, it takes at least as long as it did for them to establish to die-back to levels you don't readily-notice. They'll always be there one way or another, if they're no longer causing problems your tank is back in balance.

[Clown79]

My tank had a different strain in the sand bed plus the osteo. They appeared just as the osteo were dying off.

 

You will still see them under microscope as they are dying off, they won't be just gone. 

[justinkdenny]

8 hours ago, Clown79 said:

My tank had a different strain in the sand bed plus the osteo. They appeared just as the osteo were dying off.

 

You will still see them under microscope as they are dying off, they won't be just gone. 

Whatever strand this is, they come back every day strong when lights come on.  The ones I had under microscope were the brown stuff from the sandbed.  I think they go into water column some at nights. Or maybe i just cant see them as good with no lights .