Dino's?

[mcarroll]

1 hour ago, paulsz said:

You may notice that phosphates won't go up for a while (even while dosing). The dry rock may be absorbing it.

Nope.  Way more amazing than that.  

 

In a nutshell, they use their own lifecycle — their bones basically — to perpetuate the zero nutrient condition that started the bloom  so they can continue blooming and eating bacteria, and everything else.

 

As Dino's live, bloom and die they leave behind what is called a theca, which is basically an armor shell and very much like an exoskeleton.

 

When they die, bacteria go to work breaking down the dino's innards and use up available macronutrients in the process, leaving just the armor...which is a high-density carbon source.  

 

If you know anything about composting, then you know what needs to happen if you need to break down a high density carbon source: You need lots of macro nutrients to enable the microbes to break it down.  

 

These dino theca are a way more intense carbon source than any usual thing (hay, sawdust, newdprint) I've ever heard of going into a compost bin tho. 

 

Check this out:

https://reefsuccess.com/2017/09/12/the-role-of-nutrients-in-decomposition-of-a-thecate-dinoflagellate/

 

Check out the rest of the articles in the Dinoflagellate section too.  

 

Lotsa goodies like this:

https://reefsuccess.com/2017/05/01/putting-the-n-in-dinoflagellates-steve-dagenais-bellefeuille-and-david-morse/

 

[paulsz]

25 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

In a nutshell, they use their own lifecycle — their bones basically — to perpetuate the zero nutrient condition that started the bloom  so they can continue blooming and eating bacteria, and everything else.

That is pretty wild! did not know that

[Clown79]

2 hours ago, justinkdenny said:

Thanks for the info.  I lost a few snails in the beginning of the fight but have since been changing carbon weekly and they seem to stay alive better.  They still dont seem to work as good as ones I have had in times past.  The stringy brown stuff on the corals dont seem to go into water column at night.  Is that normal?

Depends on the strain of dino's. There are a few.

 

 

[mcarroll]

7 hours ago, justinkdenny said:

Thanks for the info.  I lost a few snails in the beginning of the fight but have since been changing carbon weekly and they seem to stay alive better.  They still dont seem to work as good as ones I have had in times past.  The stringy brown stuff on the corals dont seem to go into water column at night.  Is that normal?

Co-blooming with cyano is pretty common....and the cyano wouldn't necessarily disperse when the lights go out.

 

Can you get a new sample under the microscope?

[mcarroll]

8 hours ago, justinkdenny said:

I didn't have much success with the microscope. 

 

Pick up one for the house -- doesn't have to be fancy.  Several models for sale like this one for around $50:

Quote

40X-400X Student Kids Metal Frame Glass Optics Biological Compound Microscope

 

SKU: M149

$77.99

 

$49.99

 

I started with a $12 version of this scope (shop around) since I had no idea at all what to expect...no scope experience:

Quote

AmScope 100X-1200X LED Kids Beginner Microscope Toy Set + Slides Preparation Kit

 

 

(8)

SKU: M28-KT1-W

$47.99

 

$23.99

That's a nice toy scope and you can totally use it successfully for algae and more....but it's plastic and very wobbly, so it's a little frustrating for anything but basic usage.

 

A few years later I ended up finding a used Tasco LM400 like this one for $10...just missing its stage clips:

 

Pretty similar in function to the $50 Amscope. 

 

Lower power than the toy scope but still WAAY nicer...a fully upgradeable, basic scope. 

 

I kinda wish it had fine focus. 

 

I surprisingly don't miss having a powered light on-board.  I'm a reefer.  I have plenty of powered lights, so I get by GREAT with just the mirror.  Keeps the scope simple/more portable too.

 

Sooner or later I'd like to add one of these adjustable stages to it instead of buying plain stage clips which cost almost the same:

Quote

Graduated Microscope Mechanical Stage for M200, M500, B100 Series Microscopes

MS100

$45.99 $22.99

 

 

X-Y Gliding Table - Manual Stage For Microscopes

GT100

$183.99 $91.99

 

 

0.01mm Precise Gliding Table - Manual Stage For Microscopes

GT200

$675.99 $337.99

 

A whole new scope doesn't cost much more than a couple of those stage options....if I had $300 to drop right now I'd drop it on this vs the precision stage:

Quote

 

40X-2000X Student-level Digital Integrated Microscope with 1.3MP Imaging and LED Illumination

 

SKU: MD82ES10

$334.99

Add to Cart

 

[justinkdenny]

13 hours ago, mcarroll said:

 

Pick up one for the house -- doesn't have to be fancy.  Several models for sale like this one for around $50:

 

I started with a $12 version of this scope (shop around) since I had no idea at all what to expect...no scope experience:

That's a nice toy scope and you can totally use it successfully for algae and more....but it's plastic and very wobbly, so it's a little frustrating for anything but basic usage.

 

A few years later I ended up finding a used Tasco LM400 like this one for $10...just missing its stage clips:

 

Pretty similar in function to the $50 Amscope. 

 

Lower power than the toy scope but still WAAY nicer...a fully upgradeable, basic scope. 

 

I kinda wish it had fine focus. 

 

I surprisingly don't miss having a powered light on-board.  I'm a reefer.  I have plenty of powered lights, so I get by GREAT with just the mirror.  Keeps the scope simple/more portable too.

 

Sooner or later I'd like to add one of these adjustable stages to it instead of buying plain stage clips which cost almost the same:

 

A whole new scope doesn't cost much more than a couple of those stage options....if I had $300 to drop right now I'd drop it on this vs the precision stage:

 

My son found his little microscope from a hobby lobby science kit.  I may try to test it out.  If that doesn't work I may try to get another sample back to the school.  Everything I read or watch says it looks like snot with lots of air bubbles.  I have seen some bubbles but mine just looks stringy and doesn't seem to come off easily when i try to remove it from corals.  Here is a pic from last night of some killing my gsp.  See how it just looks stringy and not snotty?

[justinkdenny]

Another pic

 

[justinkdenny]

So I watched a live stream for the second time created by Reefdudes on you tube.   He have some water specialist guest on and he seemed to promote more of an approach to beating dinos by adding more bacteria and adding oxygen to the water.  He didn't seem as worried about raising nitrates and phosphates but I think the consensus is to still do it.  They said the dinos would consume it and you would get a false negative reading.  Any thoughts?

[seabass]

1 minute ago, justinkdenny said:

They said the dinos would consume it and you would get a false negative reading.  Any thoughts?

I don't especially like the term false negative.  Blooms (of all sorts) tend to consume the inorganic nutrients in the water.  The actual levels in the water column are actually low at the time of testing (that's not false).  However, it's also true that this snapshot in time reading doesn't tell the whole story of where nutrient levels were before the bloom.

 

The idea of increasing testable nutrient levels, is to provide available nutrients to competing sources (as well as to the bloom).  I can't say that this is an area of expertise for me; but just from reading forums, it appears that biological competition is a valid way to combat dinos.  I suppose that bacteria plays a role in this too.

 

 

[Clown79]

My dino didn't look like snot. More stringy with a few bubbles hanging on to it.

 

Really, the only way to know is under a microscope because there are numerous strains of dino and even treatment and toxicity of dino is different between the different strains.

 

Mine looked stringy like yours, which was osteoporosis.

 

The number 1 cause of dino is an imbalance, particularly lack of nutrients. This provides the perfect environment for them to come out of dormancy.

 

Lack of biodiversity is another cause.

 

Out of all the research I did, those who beat dino added pods, increased nutrients, stopped waterchanges until dino's were gone.

 

It's the most natural method and I have to say, it works. Got dino's twice, used the same method and twice it worked.

 

 

[seabass]

7 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

there are numerous strains of dino and even treatment and toxicity of dino is different between the different strains.

Do you have a good link which ID's the different strains (in order to help identify them)?  Or do you have to primarily rely on their mobility in order to assume dinos?  I've checked around, but haven't found a site which shows microscopic views of all the various strains.

[justinkdenny]

19 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

My dino didn't look like snot. More stringy with a few bubbles hanging on to it.

 

Really, the only way to know is under a microscope because there are numerous strains of dino and even treatment and toxicity of dino is different between the different strains.

 

Mine looked stringy like yours, which was osteoporosis.

 

The number 1 cause of dino is an imbalance, particularly lack of nutrients. This provides the perfect environment for them to come out of dormancy.

 

Lack of biodiversity is another cause.

 

Out of all the research I did, those who beat dino added pods, increased nutrients, stopped waterchanges until dino's were gone.

 

It's the most natural method and I have to say, it works. Got dino's twice, used the same method and twice it worked.

 

 

I'm glad you said this Clown79 because I have stopped water changes, and i have purchased bright wells phosphate and nitrate additives  which hasn't arrived yet.  I have also purchased a combo pack of pods and phytoplankton from algaebarn which also hasn't arrived yet.  Seems like I'm on the right track.  Just have to keep going.  I also built a little removable container that goes in my middle chamber of the nuvo that has small chunks of dry rock in it to hopefully establish pods.  I also am making a diy phyto and pod station to try to grow my own cultures.

[Clown79]

31 minutes ago, justinkdenny said:

I'm glad you said this Clown79 because I have stopped water changes, and i have purchased bright wells phosphate and nitrate additives  which hasn't arrived yet.  I have also purchased a combo pack of pods and phytoplankton from algaebarn which also hasn't arrived yet.  Seems like I'm on the right track.  Just have to keep going.  I also built a little removable container that goes in my middle chamber of the nuvo that has small chunks of dry rock in it to hopefully establish pods.  I also am making a diy phyto and pod station to try to grow my own cultures.

When I dosed pods, I dosed phyto every other day. That alone raised my phosphates. I was also feeding reef roids every other day too

 Within a few days of adding pods, the dino's started reducing.

It was actually amazing to see.

 

What I did since I wasn't doing waterchanges which helped greatly before the pods arrived(once pods were added and phyto dosing started below was stopped, there was no need)

 

Reduced photo period time

 

Every day late after hours of light being on(dino's are worse at this time) I sucked dino's out with a Turkey baster, ran it through filter floss into a filter sock into a container.

The water was returned to the tank. Basically recycling water but removing dino's from smothering stuff.

 

I used less carbon but changed it weekly and changed my floss often.

[Clown79]

55 minutes ago, seabass said:

Do you have a good link which ID's the different strains (in order to help identify them)?  Or do you have to primarily rely on their mobility in order to assume dinos?  I've checked around, but haven't found a site which shows microscopic views of all the various strains.

I do at home. I found it on r2r. Theres pics under microscope and then I found actual scientific sites online.

 

Mobility and shape is definitely a factor. Osteoporosis moves fast shaped like sesame seeds.

 

I will look it all up and post it when I get home.

[A.m.P]

Out of curiosity, @mcarroll do you no longer recommend H202 dosing for dino's? Or is it only for certain species and certain cases now, I thought it was a method which had a fair-bit of success in the older threads, was it decided to be too hit-and-miss or even counterproductive in some cases?

[mcarroll]

13 hours ago, Amphrites said:

Out of curiosity, @mcarroll do you no longer recommend H202 dosing for dino's? Or is it only for certain species and certain cases now, I thought it was a method which had a fair-bit of success in the older threads, was it decided to be too hit-and-miss or even counterproductive in some cases?

I don't think I've personally ever recommended it.  (For some cases of green algae maybe.)

 

There was at least one dedicated peroxide thread that had if I recall 4000 posts or so. It was huge.  I did not find any (zero) examples in there of anyone who had treated using peroxide where the dino's stayed gone.

 

Once that thread mostly petered out, the next big (old) Dino thread picked up which seems like where people started dosing their tanks with bleach and other insanity.  (Same bad result, or worse...that thread contained the all-time worst Dino blooms that I have ever seen.)

 

IMO peroxide (and bleach, and...) is either too weak to help if it's dosed conservatively or to strong to allow competitive organisms to grow while killing dino's if it's dosed to an effective concentration.  (Dino's are way tougher than the vast most of their competitors.)

 

That's when I started my thread.  

 

(The actual trigger for me starting it was that I had bumped into a science article several months before about algae that were eating bacteria for survival. I just saved the article because I thought that was amazing – algae eating bacteria??? – I hadn't made any connection with Dino's or anything else at the time. But after bumping into those rotten dino threads, that made the lightbulb go off and I made the connection on how Dino's could probably be handled properly.   It only took a tiny amount more research to get me rolling… Then I bumped into someone else who was on a similar track of research as me and the thread immediately picked up steam.)

[mcarroll]

 I would swear that I post this link already, I think I may have not hit post on one of my posts: 

 

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dinoflagellates-–-are-you-tired-of-battling-altogether.293318/

 

Definitely read the whole first post and all the links. Post questions here if you have any.

 

I just tried to copy and paste the section with the links for identification in it and I don't know if it's nano reef or the other site, but when I pasted, all of the links and link text were removed....so click over and read I guess.

[Orangutran]

Hey @mcarroll , do you know if anyone has tried this digital microscope? 

 

https://www.amazon.ca/YKSINX-Microscope-Resolution-Magnification-Endoscope/dp/B07LCM76N7/ref=asc_df_B07LCM76N7/?tag=googleshopc0c-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=335690036325&hvpos=1o13&hvnetw=g&hvrand=5642766539477195049&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9061021&hvtargid=pla-762486246442&psc=1

 

I have the cheap plastic one, and it definitely is frustrating to focus when the entire plastic frame is flexing while turning the knob. lol 

[mcarroll]

From the item name it looks like an endoscope vs compound microscope.  

 

But if it happens to have high-magnification (400x or greater) then it should be able to "see" dino's.  

 

Seems like you would still want a compound scope with a stage for that however. 

[justinkdenny]

Well I have added tisbe and tiger pods along with phytoplankton.   I saved some of both and started a diy phyto and pod station.  I recieved my nitrate and phosphate brightwell products in the mail so I will start dosing tomorrow.  I have purposely let my tank get filthy by overfeeding and less waterchanges but when I try to siphon this stuff off of the corals it won't come off.  Siphon only works on sandbed.  I have been trying to manually keep it off gsp and zoas but it comes right back. This stuff is the devil👹 in the famous words of Bobby Boucher's mom.

[justinkdenny]

Also forgot to mention that I lost another snail to the toxins even though I'm changing carbon 2x weekly. Uggggh

[j.falk]

On 9/13/2019 at 11:35 AM, Clown79 said:

When I dosed pods, I dosed phyto every other day. That alone raised my phosphates. I was also feeding reef roids every other day too

 Within a few days of adding pods, the dino's started reducing.

It was actually amazing to see.

 

What I did since I wasn't doing waterchanges which helped greatly before the pods arrived(once pods were added and phyto dosing started below was stopped, there was no need)

 

Reduced photo period time

 

Every day late after hours of light being on(dino's are worse at this time) I sucked dino's out with a Turkey baster, ran it through filter floss into a filter sock into a container.

The water was returned to the tank. Basically recycling water but removing dino's from smothering stuff.

 

I used less carbon but changed it weekly and changed my floss often.

Where did you get your pods from and what type did you buy?

[Clown79]

3 hours ago, j.falk said:

Where did you get your pods from and what type did you buy?

I got them from canada copepods, it was tisbe pods, rotifers, and their phytoplankton blend.

 

 

[mcarroll]

Carbon removes toxins from the water, but snails can still get it from eating dino's...or more specifically from eating their mucus mats, which is where the toxins concentrate.

Dosing nutrients should put a stop to the toxins as the blooming stops.

[justinkdenny]

I have been dosing for a while now.  I have got my nitrates up to 10ppm but I'm not seeing much results with raising phosphates.   0-.03 by my test kit ( salifert ).  I wonder if the kit just isnt accurate.  My tank was a mess covered on 3 sides with brown junk but have noticed what looks like cyno and some hair algae.  I added more pods from my diy culture and have been adding phyto that I have harvested.  I broke down and did a small water change and took the tooth brush to my coral bases and rock.  On day 2 after cleaning brown dusting is starting back on the sand . Fingers crossed.