Dino's?

[seabass]

Does anybody have a good resource for identifying various strains of dinos under the microscope?  That could make a good article, or even a sticky topic.

[Clown79]

2 hours ago, seabass said:

Does anybody have a good resource for identifying various strains of dinos under the microscope?  That could make a good article, or even a sticky topic.

I think I have a few. I will check what i saved when I got them.

[justinkdenny]

54 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

I think I have a few. I will check what i saved when I got them.

Clown79, what size micron sock did you use when filtering your dinos?  I am using 200 micron thinking larger number was better but I think I am mistaken. 🤔

[Clown79]

11 minutes ago, justinkdenny said:

Clown79, what size micron sock did you use when filtering your dinos?  I am using 200 micron thinking larger number was better but I think I am mistaken. 🤔

I was using the IM socks. I couldn't find socks here that were small enough. I just stuffed the sock with floss and manually ran the water through that.

[mcarroll]

10 hours ago, seabass said:

Does anybody have a good resource for identifying various strains of dinos under the microscope?  That could make a good article, or even a sticky topic.

PhycoKey covers dino's and other things non-algae.  #1 go to for such photos that I'm aware of.

Link: http://cfb.unh.edu/phycokey/phycokey.htm

 

Click on their "Instructions" link if there's any question about how to use the site.....it's photo-based and oriented toward microscope ID so it could seem confusing at first.

 

While PhycoKey doesn't have 100% of the pest species that we see, there are enough to at least do some process of elimination and have a chance of ID...and there are many other dinos of interest that you may see, like Oxyrrhis sp.

 

After that I'd honestly turn to my dino thread on R2R and run a search.  There are even some sample searches on the first post for the most common species.   

 

Sooooo many photos have been posted and ID'd there. 

 

If you want you can still post your own photo and get it ID'd (which is more or less true if you post it on a thread here too)....but again there's already a huge catalog of photos you could compare with on there.

[mcarroll]

7 hours ago, justinkdenny said:

Clown79, what size micron sock did you use when filtering your dinos?  I am using 200 micron thinking larger number was better but I think I am mistaken. 🤔

You'd want something like 10 micron, or as close as you can get for best results IMO. 

 

Smaller, down to 1 micron, would be OK too, but have a backup....flow can become restricted fast with that fine of filtering, depending on the source water.  Depending on the dino and if your selection of filters is limited, up to 50 micron or so will catch at least the grownups.

 

Try this....run a different search if I picked the wrong size for your setup:

https://www.thecarycompany.com/filtration/liquid/liquid-filter-bags?filter_micron_rating=1272%2C1274%2C1271%2C1270%2C1269&filter_size=1292%2C1291%2C1290&material=1302

[justinkdenny]

On 12/17/2019 at 9:58 PM, Clown79 said:

My tank had a different strain in the sand bed plus the osteo. They appeared just as the osteo were dying off.

 

You will still see them under microscope as they are dying off, they won't be just gone. 

These under scope weren't very active

[justinkdenny]

So I feel like my dinos go into water column at night or at least most do. Here is a few shots at different times.  

This one is 9:30 pm

[justinkdenny]

This one is 10:18 which is about 45 minutes later.

[justinkdenny]

Last one 5:41 the next morning. 

[seabass]

Nice progression shots.  I know how frustrating this can be.  Besides the increase in nutrients, have you introduced more competitors (like pods and rotifers), phyto (to help sustain the competitors), and herbivores (to help with the hair algae).  Competition seems like a significant part of beating dinos.

[Clown79]

9 minutes ago, seabass said:

Nice progression shots.  I know how frustrating this can be.  Besides the increase in nutrients, have you introduced more competitors (like pods), phyto, herbivores (to help with the hair algae).  Competition seems like a significant part of beating dinos.

After adding lots of pods was when I saw a significant difference. 

 

It was actually quite shocking to be honest, within 2 days!

[justinkdenny]

4 hours ago, seabass said:

Nice progression shots.  I know how frustrating this can be.  Besides the increase in nutrients, have you introduced more competitors (like pods and rotifers), phyto (to help sustain the competitors), and herbivores (to help with the hair algae).  Competition seems like a significant part of beating dinos.

Daily phyto at feeding time

Added pods and started culturing pods.  Probably added them now 4 or five times

Added snails a tailspot blenny and a sea hare for algae. I have never added rotifers.

[justinkdenny]

4 hours ago, Clown79 said:

After adding lots of pods was when I saw a significant difference. 

 

It was actually quite shocking to be honest, within 2 days!

Really.  Good to know.  I still never see pods in my system.   I assume the clownfish keeps them scared to come out.  I added a rock rubble area in the back chamber of the nuvo and add pods to it every time I add pods.  Where did you get your pods and what strain?

[A.m.P]

I did tigger, tisbe, apocalypse, and apex.
There were some folks fairly-close to me who were nice enough to send out a mix of all four, $18 shipped on my end but because they were close we could fool around with shipping. 
https://www.ebay.com/usr/reefandfins?_trksid=p2047675.l2559

[mcarroll]

On 12/17/2019 at 9:38 PM, justinkdenny said:

Well no matter what I do I cant get rid of dinos.  It doesn't look stringy at all in tank.  Thought it was diatoms but doesn't it look like dinos under scope? Arrrrrrrrrrrh!  I dont know what to do.  I have followed everyone's advise and now my tank has dinos and hair algae everywhere. 

Can you try zooming in as much as possible with the camera for another pic?  That one is too small/fuzzy for me to make out.  Personally all I can say with that detail is Yep, those look like dino's.  If you can get a movie that shows the motion they are in, that would also be helpful.

 

A little fuzzy may be OK if the subjects are bigger.  😁

 

I think we need a positive ID on this so we know if we're missing something.

 

I'm gonna guess for now tho and say that you either have Ostreopsis or Amphidinium....those seem to be the most pesky as they aren't simply "turned off" by correcting the nutrient situation like most other dino's appear to be. 

 

Ostreopsis's cycle in the wild is tied not only to the seasonal nutrient cycles but also to seasonal temperature swings....so I think there are some things we could figure out with them, but haven't yet.

 

Amphidinium aren't as problematic to other livestock as most other dino's thankfully, since they seem to be about the toughest to "shut off"....for example they're impervious to UV and micron filtration since they stay on the substrate after lights out vs entering the water column like most dino's we experience.  They also don't seem very responsive to nutrient corrections.

 

Folks have experimented with things like causing temperature swings and causing diatom blooms in controlling these types, but I don't think anything very concrete has developed out of these experiments so far.   (@taricha on R2R is the main one I know of who's experimenting.  There is a thread on Amphidinium.)

[A.m.P]

One thing I can say, which I don't necessarily recommend, metroplex and a sustained dkh of 14, alongside serious manual removal and turning my lights down 50% really impacted the ability of my amphidinium to multiply and allowed me to get them to be more manageable. But I don't think you ever visually eliminate these Dino's, I constantly see signs of them threatening to come back and while they may not be *as* toxic they certainly still impact coral health ime.

 

But what you have doesn't strike me as amphi, at least they aren't similar to my strain, mine never really waxed or waned in their appearance based on time of day/light-schedules. In fact they were somewhat easier to spot and clumped/cysted-up at night, so that's when I did allot of my manual removal.

[justinkdenny]

11 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Can you try zooming in as much as possible with the camera for another pic?  That one is too small/fuzzy for me to make out.  Personally all I can say with that detail is Yep, those look like dino's.  If you can get a movie that shows the motion they are in, that would also be helpful.

 

A little fuzzy may be OK if the subjects are bigger.  😁

 

I think we need a positive ID on this so we know if we're missing something.

 

I'm gonna guess for now tho and say that you either have Ostreopsis or Amphidinium....those seem to be the most pesky as they aren't simply "turned off" by correcting the nutrient situation like most other dino's appear to be. 

 

Ostreopsis's cycle in the wild is tied not only to the seasonal nutrient cycles but also to seasonal temperature swings....so I think there are some things we could figure out with them, but haven't yet.

 

Amphidinium aren't as problematic to other livestock as most other dino's thankfully, since they seem to be about the toughest to "shut off"....for example they're impervious to UV and micron filtration since they stay on the substrate after lights out vs entering the water column like most dino's we experience.  They also don't seem very responsive to nutrient corrections.

 

Folks have experimented with things like causing temperature swings and causing diatom blooms in controlling these types, but I don't think anything very concrete has developed out of these experiments so far.   (@taricha on R2R is the main one I know of who's experimenting.  There is a thread on Amphidinium.)

You should see me trying to get a pic with my phone with sons kid microscope.   Its comical!  I can get them zoomed in decent but haven't got a good shot yet.  Is there a trick I dont know? They aren't really active at all.  I'm guessing Ostreopsis.   I'll try to get a better pic.

 

One other note that makes me think Ostreopsis is going into water column and toxic.

[mcarroll]

43 minutes ago, justinkdenny said:

You should see me trying to get a pic with my phone with sons kid microscope.   Its comical!  I can get them zoomed in decent but haven't got a good shot yet.  Is there a trick I dont know? They aren't really active at all.  I'm guessing Ostreopsis.   I'll try to get a better pic.

 

One other note that makes me think Ostreopsis is going into water column and toxic.

I have either the very same microscope or a very similar one, so I have been in exactly the same position.  LOL

 

That is what made me keep shopping for a used student microscope.

 

Lower end, but built like a tank – perfect for our application.  Much easier to take photos on too.

 

I will add that I do have a microscope camera adapter clamp sort of thing that I got on eBay. That does make it easier, but the plastic scope is so light that it still was cumbersome to use with a camera on top. I would recommend using an adapter clamp on the regular microscope if you ever get one. (I have a post on someone's microscope thread here somewhere that I think I have pictures of that adapter posted if you wanna do a quick search.)

 

I ended up finding a real (but still low end) microscope at a secondhand store for $10.  They show up on craigslist too and other places. Schools replace their scopes in the old ones have to go somewhere…

[mcarroll]

50 minutes ago, justinkdenny said:

One other note that makes me think Ostreopsis is going into water column and toxic.

I think currently it's hard to say whether they are dispersing into the substrate or into the water column at night. Either is possible.

 

If you had already deployed some kind of a filter such as UV or micron and saw it make a difference, then you could infer that they were getting into the water column at night, but I don't think we're there with evidence yet.

 

It's also worth clarifying that there are two "common" types of Amphidinium – large cell and small cell. (I wish I could remember the exact species names off the top of my head.)  They probably are not the same in their presentation or in their effects.

[A.m.P]

Oiy, I forgot about the small cell buggers entirely, yeah mine didn't make it through 20 micron filter floss, I honestly don't see how you can shake either out of a sandbed. Being BB meant they were all on my rockwork and easier to spot and remove but were still very difficult to suck off the rocks.

[Clown79]

After the osteo I had I got ones in my sand bed that moved much slower than osteo.

 

I sucked out the sand that had them in it, the remainder died off on their own 

[justinkdenny]

18 hours ago, mcarroll said:

I think currently it's hard to say whether they are dispersing into the substrate or into the water column at night. Either is possible.

 

If you had already deployed some kind of a filter such as UV or micron and saw it make a difference, then you could infer that they were getting into the water column at night, but I don't think we're there with evidence yet.

 

It's also worth clarifying that there are two "common" types of Amphidinium – large cell and small cell. (I wish I could remember the exact species names off the top of my head.)  They probably are not the same in their presentation or in their effects.

I didn't know some types went into the sandbed.  I will say both times I have used a microscope I never saw much motion from the little boogers.  I also dont remember seeing the spinning motion that i think Ostreopsis does.  Well I think that's Ostreopsis? Haven't seen much motion at all.  I was planning on getting  a uv after Christmas in case they are going into water column. If I turned over the sandbed a little one night, would they be grouped up and noticeable?

[Clown79]

27 minutes ago, justinkdenny said:

I didn't know some types went into the sandbed.  I will say both times I have used a microscope I never saw much motion from the little boogers.  I also dont remember seeing the spinning motion that i think Ostreopsis does.  Well I think that's Ostreopsis? Haven't seen much motion at all.  I was planning on getting  a uv after Christmas in case they are going into water column. If I turned over the sandbed a little one night, would they be grouped up and noticeable?

Osteo moves and rapidly, you will see the spinning motion under microscope.

 

There are strains of dino that develop mostly in the sand bed, they move much slower.

 

There was no need for me to do anything to my sandbed to see them, the parts of my sandbed where they were looked like your sandbed.

They kinda look like diatoms visually, once I put them under microscope I determined they were dino's.

[justinkdenny]

4 hours ago, Clown79 said:

Osteo moves and rapidly, you will see the spinning motion under microscope.

 

There are strains of dino that develop mostly in the sand bed, they move much slower.

 

There was no need for me to do anything to my sandbed to see them, the parts of my sandbed where they were looked like your sandbed.

They kinda look like diatoms visually, once I put them under microscope I determined they were dino's.

Did you treat the eradication of these the same?