Dino's?

[justinkdenny]

2 hours ago, Clown79 said:

There are more than 1 type of dino's and they don't all look the same.

 

The only real way to know is under microscope, without it you can't determine the strain of dino's.

 

I got rid of dino's in 5 weeks in my 25g and 2 weeks in my pico. I detailed every step I took in my lagoon journal.

Went through your tank journal to make sure I didn't miss anything you had told me earlier on this thread.   I'm doing most things right.  I add phyto daily added pods and now cultivate them, I dose phosphates and nitrates daily.  I quit waterchanges until this week ,  guess I should have not done them but I was trying to clean tank up and save snails since activated carbon doesnt seem to work.  Thanks for all your insight.  This has been the worst experience I've had in this hobby and I have owned multiple tanks from nano to 75 gallon.  I will keep dosing and hopefully things will change for the better.  

P.S. I'm pretty sure I have the same ones you have.  That's what they looked like under microscope. 

[Clown79]

6 hours ago, justinkdenny said:

Went through your tank journal to make sure I didn't miss anything you had told me earlier on this thread.   I'm doing most things right.  I add phyto daily added pods and now cultivate them, I dose phosphates and nitrates daily.  I quit waterchanges until this week ,  guess I should have not done them but I was trying to clean tank up and save snails since activated carbon doesnt seem to work.  Thanks for all your insight.  This has been the worst experience I've had in this hobby and I have owned multiple tanks from nano to 75 gallon.  I will keep dosing and hopefully things will change for the better.  

P.S. I'm pretty sure I have the same ones you have.  That's what they looked like under microscope. 

Osteo is one of the worst dino's. I didn't see a significant change until I seeded a large amount of rotifers and pods.

 

I only dosed phyto every other day.

 

my phos was above 0.08 and nitrates 2 when I started seeing them die.

I didn't do a waterchange for 5 weeks and kept it to small ones.

[justinkdenny]

2 hours ago, Clown79 said:

Osteo is one of the worst dino's. I didn't see a significant change until I seeded a large amount of rotifers and pods.

 

I only dosed phyto every other day.

 

my phos was above 0.08 and nitrates 2 when I started seeing them die.

I didn't do a waterchange for 5 weeks and kept it to small ones.

Do you feel like toxins would kill your pods? I've been adding them but was wondering if toxins would kill'em. I also went about a month with no water change. 

[Clown79]

5 hours ago, justinkdenny said:

Do you feel like toxins would kill your pods? I've been adding them but was wondering if toxins would kill'em. I also went about a month with no water change. 

No. They are a main competitor to dino.

 

I hold them as the number 1 reason my dino's died off because right after I added pods, the dino's started going away. At that point my nutrients were still low.  So between the pods and increased nutrients from phyto dosing, both were an important part to getting rid of dino's. 

 

Dino's are caused from lack of biodiversity and low to no nutrients

 

[justinkdenny]

5 hours ago, Clown79 said:

No. They are a main competitor to dino.

 

I hold them as the number 1 reason my dino's died off because right after I added pods, the dino's started going away. At that point my nutrients were still low.  So between the pods and increased nutrients from phyto dosing, both were an important part to getting rid of dino's. 

 

Dino's are caused from lack of biodiversity and low to no nutrients

 

Well I'm going to keep adding pods weekly and keep dosing phytoplankton then.  I checked my nitrates and phosphates last night and both are now elevated so maybe the water parameters are right so pods and gha can outcompete it.

[mcarroll]

If you're running activated carbon, and nutrient levels have been positive for a while, it should be safe for pods and phyto.

[justinkdenny]

So if you vacuum your sandbed and return water to tank, what do you do to clean your filter sock?

[seabass]

Freshwater will kill dinos.  So tap water is fine to rinse out your filter sock with.  You could also use filter floss and just toss it.

[justinkdenny]

34 minutes ago, seabass said:

Freshwater will kill dinos.  So tap water is fine to rinse out your filter sock with.  You could also use filter floss and just toss it.

If you use tap water would there be a chance of getting chlorine in the tank next time you use the sock?

[Clown79]

I've always just washed the filter sock in tap and let air dry. Never had issues.

 

I stuffed the filter sock with floss so that as many dino's got caught as possible.

 

I didn't touch my sandbed. 

 

The only thing I did for 4+weeks was top up daily, dose alk/ca, phyto, and reef roids.

 

Every day about 2 hrs before lights out I sucked out dino's with Turkey baster, ran that through the floss stuffed in filter sock, returned water to tank.

 

Washed sock, let dry.

[justinkdenny]

1 hour ago, Clown79 said:

I've always just washed the filter sock in tap and let air dry. Never had issues.

 

I stuffed the filter sock with floss so that as many dino's got caught as possible.

 

I didn't touch my sandbed. 

 

The only thing I did for 4+weeks was top up daily, dose alk/ca, phyto, and reef roids.

 

Every day about 2 hrs before lights out I sucked out dino's with Turkey baster, ran that through the floss stuffed in filter sock, returned water to tank.

 

Washed sock, let dry.

This is a great idea. I will give it a try.

 

[justinkdenny]

So I have been vacuuming sand bed and returning water back to tank every night when sand is brownest.  Also trying to blow rocks off with turkey baster where dinos are accumulating.   I have been reading that I should add good bacteria to tank.  I did this when I initially set up tank but not since.  Do you think I should add more and if so which bacteria brand do you suggest.  Thanks in advance.

[Clown79]

3 hours ago, justinkdenny said:

So I have been vacuuming sand bed and returning water back to tank every night when sand is brownest.  Also trying to blow rocks off with turkey baster where dinos are accumulating.   I have been reading that I should add good bacteria to tank.  I did this when I initially set up tank but not since.  Do you think I should add more and if so which bacteria brand do you suggest.  Thanks in advance.

You don't want to blow the rocks, it will cause the dino to spread. You want to suck them out of the tank.

[justinkdenny]

1 hour ago, Clown79 said:

You don't want to blow the rocks, it will cause the dino to spread. You want to suck them out of the tank.

I dont know if my gravel cleaner stinks or what but it wont pull them off the rocks.  Not enough suction I guess.  I assumed getting them in the water column would be good so the filter floss could catch them.  There is literally no stringy snot just copper brown colored stuff on rocks and sand.  Is there a particular gravel siphon cleaner that is better than others?

[mcarroll]

Dino's are around 40-50 microns if memory serves....unless they're massed up in mucus strands, filter floss isn't going to catch them.  It's for catching big hunks of stuff like fish food. 

 

You can get filter media that filters to a finer level though, like the "Pure Flo" pads from Coralife.  They have a few different models down to 50 microns.

 

So if you aren't running UV or a micron filter (can't remember if you are) and are only running filter floss, then blowing off the rocks probably isn't helping much.  (If you are running one or both of those filters, then there may be value to blowing off the rocks and sand bed.)

 

Do you know anyone near you with a healthy tank that could give you a scoop of detritus or some sand?  You want more than bacteria if you can get it.

[justinkdenny]

3 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Dino's are around 40-50 microns if memory serves....unless they're massed up in mucus strands, filter floss isn't going to catch them.  It's for catching big hunks of stuff like fish food. 

 

You can get filter media that filters to a finer level though, like the "Pure Flo" pads from Coralife.  They have a few different models down to 50 microns.

 

So if you aren't running UV or a micron filter (can't remember if you are) and are only running filter floss, then blowing off the rocks probably isn't helping much.  (If you are running one or both of those filters, then there may be value to blowing off the rocks and sand bed.)

 

Do you know anyone near you with a healthy tank that could give you a scoop of detritus or some sand?  You want more than bacteria if you can get it.

For when I vacuum the sand I use this 200 micron sock but my filter floss is just polyfil.  Maybe my lfs would sale me a scoop of sand.  I dont have a uv yet but was looking at the one made to fit in the back chamber of my nuvo 10.

[seabass]

28 minutes ago, justinkdenny said:

I dont have a uv yet but was looking at the one made to fit in the back chamber of my nuvo 10.

I get the appeal of UV, and it could make a contributing impact on the free swimming dinos which pass through it.  However, in my experience, I wouldn't expect a dramatic improvement just based on the addition of a weak sterilizer.  It can also negatively affect phyto and other beneficial plankton.

 

5 hours ago, justinkdenny said:

There is literally no stringy snot just copper brown colored stuff on rocks and sand.

Have you checked these under the microscope lately, so that you can rule out diatoms?

[A.m.P]

1 hour ago, seabass said:

I get the appeal of UV, and it could make a contributing impact on the free swimming dinos which pass through it.  However, in my experience, I wouldn't expect a dramatic improvement just based on the addition of a weak sterilizer.  It can also negatively affect phyto and other beneficial plankton.

 

Have you checked these under the microscope lately, so that you can rule out diatoms?

To be fair some dino's do stay low and are near-impossible to get off rockwork without some serious suction or basting, https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/amphidinium-dinoflagellate-treatment-methods.365850/ come to mind almost immediately and there are quite a few other large-cell varieties out there as well.

[Clown79]

5 hours ago, justinkdenny said:

For when I vacuum the sand I use this 200 micron sock but my filter floss is just polyfil.  Maybe my lfs would sale me a scoop of sand.  I dont have a uv yet but was looking at the one made to fit in the back chamber of my nuvo 10.

I used my Turkey baster to suck up the dino's every night. This allowed me to suck them up without having to remove a lot of water. It was quick too 

 

Dino's are tiny and can bypass a lot of material.

 

I stuffed my filter sock with 2 squares of floss and ran the water through that.

[justinkdenny]

6 hours ago, seabass said:

I get the appeal of UV, and it could make a contributing impact on the free swimming dinos which pass through it.  However, in my experience, I wouldn't expect a dramatic improvement just based on the addition of a weak sterilizer.  It can also negatively affect phyto and other beneficial plankton.

 

Have you checked these under the microscope lately, so that you can rule out diatoms?

No I haven't.   I need to

[RemoGaggi]

7 hours ago, justinkdenny said:

 I dont have a uv yet but was looking at the one made to fit in the back chamber of my nuvo 10.

 

When I was fighting dinos in my IM20, I tried the UV sterilizer that fits the back chamber.  It made things worse so I returned it to Amazon.  It took over a month, but I beat the dinos by mostly following Clown79's method that has been well documented.

[justinkdenny]

27 minutes ago, RemoGaggi said:

When I was fighting dinos in my IM20, I tried the UV sterilizer that fits the back chamber.  It made things worse so I returned it to Amazon.  It took over a month, but I beat the dinos by mostly following Clown79's method that has been well documented.

I have been battling since early September.  It's so frustrating.   I have been doing what Clown79 has been saying.  I think it's better and hopefully I can beat them.  

[RemoGaggi]

38 minutes ago, justinkdenny said:

I have been battling since early September.  It's so frustrating.   I have been doing what Clown79 has been saying.  I think it's better and hopefully I can beat them.  

I feel your pain.  For me, I started fighting them in early September also.  FWIW, here's a link to my post when I thought I had them beat.  

Hang in there!

[mcarroll]

Your dino's may get worse, but not from running a UV filter.  I'll circle back to this...

 

It's been pretty well demonstrated that UV filters work best when used in the display where the bloom is happening vs in the sump/filter compartment.

 

The cheapie UV filters that are integrated with a pump seem to have flow dialed in fairly well, so the killing power seems to be alright for the task.  It still has to be big enough to have an impact on the tank. 

 

So for example, a 3 watt integrated sterilizer may kill every dino passing through it, but it still may not do much if it's on a gigantic 125 Gallon tank.  (AquaUV recommends a 25 unit for a tank that size.)

 

A micron filter may be a better option for some people/some situations.

 

Getting back to the beginning with dino's getting worse in spite of UV....

 

All of these things are bandaids unless you've addressed the root of the issue, which is starving dino's.

[mcarroll]

17 hours ago, seabass said:

I get the appeal of UV, and it could make a contributing impact on the free swimming dinos which pass through it.  However, in my experience, I wouldn't expect a dramatic improvement just based on the addition of a weak sterilizer.  It can also negatively affect phyto and other beneficial plankton.

 

Have you checked these under the microscope lately, so that you can rule out diatoms?

Not that I know if we're following it here, but under my recipe (and I think Clown's too) ID of the algae in question is the first task.   

 

There are definitely dino's that do not tend to get into the water column....in particular, Amphidinium (as mentioned by someone else). 

 

So UV (like most tools) is no panacea or miracle cure.

 

But a properly installed UV can make a big difference if you have an ID that warrants its use. 

 

Proper flow for the UV watts to achieve a satisfactory kill rate (usually in the instructions if you're expected to plumb a flow source yourself) and proper UV watts for the tank size are both crucial parameters. 

 

Because of that, working with a solid vendor like Lifegaurd, Emperor/AES or AquaUV (etc) on the sizing/flow is a good idea if you're new to UV and/or you aren't buying a pre-integrated unit.  (Which again seems to be an OK option.) 

 

I'd suggest looking at my dino thread on the other site for sizing examples as well as use cases for the cheapie sterilizers too in case there are any "known issues".  Just search the thread for your tank size and UV.  There have been a lot more smaller tanks than bigger tanks on that thread, but there were definitely examples of each.  Not everyone ran UV (not all dino's call for it and there are other tools), but lots did.