Jump to content
justinkdenny

Dino's?

Recommended Posts

seabass
1 hour ago, justinkdenny said:

I literally probably have 0 pods in this tanks.

Yeah, back in the day, we used to get most of our corals from the ocean and dipping (and aquacultured corals) wasn't as commonplace.  It was almost like adding a piece of live rock every time we added a piece of coral.

 

I'm not necessarily recommending just plopping in any corals that you receive, as coral pests are not mythical creatures.  QT may be the best method, but not everyone has the equipment and room (not to mention, patience) for a proper coral quarantine; so preventative dipping makes sense.

 

Therefore it seems like the challenge today (in the day of dry rock and coral dips) is how to introduce biodiversity into our reef tanks. Mcarroll may be correct about adding pods/diversity to a toxic environment, but I feel that it might still help.  Biodiversity will certainly help down the road.

 

The current theory on combating dinos (assuming that's what you have), is removing them without water changes, having detectable nutrient levels, and adding/encouraging biodiversity.  @Clown79 has documented what worked for her.

 

Good luck!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Clown79
19 minutes ago, seabass said:

Yeah, back in the day, we used to get most of our corals from the ocean and dipping (and aquacultured corals) wasn't as commonplace.  It was almost like adding a piece of live rock every time we added a piece of coral.

 

I'm not necessarily recommending just plopping in any corals that you receive, as coral pests are not mythical creatures.  QT may be the best method, but not everyone has the equipment and room (not to mention, patience) for a proper coral quarantine; so preventative dipping makes sense.

 

Therefore it seems like the challenge today (in the day of dry rock and coral dips) is how to introduce biodiversity into our reef tanks. Mcarroll may be correct about adding pods/diversity to a toxic environment, but I feel that it might still help.  Biodiversity will certainly help down the road.

 

The current theory on combating dinos (assuming that's what you have), is removing them without water changes, having detectable nutrient levels, and adding/encouraging biodiversity.  @Clown79 has documented what worked for her.

 

Good luck!

That was the route I went. Seemed the most natural and effective way to get rid of dino's.

 

Number 1 competitor is pods so I added copepods and rotifers while dosing phyto. I also made a pod condo.

 

As soon as I added the pods and phyto dosing, that's really what was effective on the dino's

 

Everything else from no waterchanges, reducing light and its cycle controlled them.

 

Within a few days of seeding pods and dosing phyto, the dino's started receding, after a month they were gone.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
justinkdenny
6 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Good to know!   I would stop doing any nutrient export currently happening (keep the protein skimmer and that's about it) and see if that's enough change to get some detectable phosphates....could be all it takes.

FYI, no protein skimmer. Only water changes.

Share this post


Link to post
justinkdenny
4 hours ago, seabass said:

Yeah, back in the day, we used to get most of our corals from the ocean and dipping (and aquacultured corals) wasn't as commonplace.  It was almost like adding a piece of live rock every time we added a piece of coral.

 

I'm not necessarily recommending just plopping in any corals that you receive, as coral pests are not mythical creatures.  QT may be the best method, but not everyone has the equipment and room (not to mention, patience) for a proper coral quarantine; so preventative dipping makes sense.

 

Therefore it seems like the challenge today (in the day of dry rock and coral dips) is how to introduce biodiversity into our reef tanks. Mcarroll may be correct about adding pods/diversity to a toxic environment, but I feel that it might still help.  Biodiversity will certainly help down the road.

 

The current theory on combating dinos (assuming that's what you have), is removing them without water changes, having detectable nutrient levels, and adding/encouraging biodiversity.  @Clown79 has documented what worked for her.

 

Good luck!

What's the best way of removal without water change? Also, they seem to stick to corals and dont blow or suck off easily.

Share this post


Link to post
justinkdenny
4 hours ago, Clown79 said:

That was the route I went. Seemed the most natural and effective way to get rid of dino's.

 

Number 1 competitor is pods so I added copepods and rotifers while dosing phyto. I also made a pod condo.

 

As soon as I added the pods and phyto dosing, that's really what was effective on the dino's

 

Everything else from no waterchanges, reducing light and its cycle controlled them.

 

Within a few days of seeding pods and dosing phyto, the dino's started receding, after a month they were gone.

Pod condo in your main tank or I a back chamber or refugium?  I have an im nuvo 10.  I need to find your thread where you battled them and won. 

Share this post


Link to post
justinkdenny

Snails seem better since carbon so I think I'll add this or something like it.

Screenshot_20190909-062946_Chrome.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
seabass
2 minutes ago, justinkdenny said:

What's the best way of removal without water change?

Siphon them out using a fine micron filter sock to remove them.  Then return the water back to your tank.

 

7 minutes ago, justinkdenny said:

Also, they seem to stick to corals and dont blow or suck off easily.

They clump together during the light cycle (which you will likely want to temporarily shorten during treatment).  During lights out, they become free swimming.  You might have better luck siphoning them out before or shortly after the lights come on.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Clown79
3 hours ago, justinkdenny said:

What's the best way of removal without water change? Also, they seem to stick to corals and dont blow or suck off easily.

You don't want to blow the dino's off, it gives them the opportunity to spread faster.

 

 

 

What I did is on the second last or last page.

 

If you have any specific questions, don't hesitate to ask.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
mcarroll
3 hours ago, justinkdenny said:

What's the best way of removal without water change? Also, they seem to stick to corals and dont blow or suck off easily.

Get some activated carbon going if there was suspicion of toxins – that will take care of what's in the water.

 

The overall idea is to "shut off" the dinos from blooming and making toxins. For that, new generations of dinos will need plentiful available phosphates as well as nitrates.  Take care of that and there should be no new toxic dinos.

 

If you can hit both of those nails (toxins and nitrients) on the head, the Dino blooming will be on its way out.

 

The idea of water changes making Dino's bloom is a little bit of a misunderstanding of what's happening in my opinion.  Trace elements, which are the suspected part of the water change, don't seem to have a whole lot to do with the blooming activity of dinoflagellates.

 

Something else that water changes do which we know for a fact has an impact on dinoflagellates is lowering the nutrient levels in the water.   lowering the nutrient levels with water changes is absolutely contrary to what you want to be doing.

 

That said, if you felt that you had to do water changes, I would simply instruct you to dose nitrates and phosphates into the new water change water so that it has the correct levels – at least 5 ppm nitrate and at least 0.1 ppm phosphate. Then you could proceed with water changes as normal.

 

Unless there are spots in the tank that are worse than what you showed him the pictures, in my opinion these extra steps should be unnecessary. Use the activated carbon to take care of the toxins, raise nitrates and phosphates, and see what happens. That may be all it takes.

 

Adding things like pods, cleanup crew and new corals still would not be a bad idea to increase microbial diversity too.  But if you ask me that is more for the future of the tank then it is a problem remediation step...so first things first.  If the toxins are still there, then pods and cleanup crew you add will die. If the nutrients still aren't there then the new pods and cleanup crew and coral will will not thrive and maybe even die. Once those things are taken care of, then your stage is set for rebuilding.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Clown79
9 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

Get some activated carbon going if there was suspicion of toxins – that will take care of what's in the water.

 

The overall idea is to "shut off" the dinos from blooming and making toxins. For that, new generations of dinos will need plentiful available phosphates as well as nitrates.  Take care of that and there should be no new toxic dinos.

 

If you can hit both of those nails (toxins and nitrients) on the head, the Dino blooming will be on its way out.

 

The idea of water changes making Dino's bloom is a little bit of a misunderstanding of what's happening in my opinion.  Trace elements, which are the suspected part of the water change, don't seem to have a whole lot to do with the blooming activity of dinoflagellates.

 

Something else that water changes do which we know for a fact has an impact on dinoflagellates is lowering the nutrient levels in the water.   lowering the nutrient levels with water changes is absolutely contrary to what you want to be doing.

 

That said, if you felt that you had to do water changes, I would simply instruct you to dose nitrates and phosphates into the new water change water so that it has the correct levels – at least 5 ppm nitrate and at least 0.1 ppm phosphate. Then you could proceed with water changes as normal.

 

Unless there are spots in the tank that are worse than what you showed him the pictures, in my opinion these extra steps should be unnecessary. Use the activated carbon to take care of the toxins, raise nitrates and phosphates, and see what happens. That may be all it takes.

 

Adding things like pods, cleanup crew and new corals still would not be a bad idea to increase microbial diversity too.  But if you ask me that is more for the future of the tank then it is a problem remediation step...so first things first.  If the toxins are still there, then pods and cleanup crew you add will die. If the nutrients still aren't there then the new pods and cleanup crew and coral will will not thrive and maybe even die. Once those things are taken care of, then your stage is set for rebuilding.

My pods never died. If anything, that's what immediately started killing off the dino, I mean within 24hrs of adding pods. Within a week there was a significant drop, by the 4th week no dino, everything looking great and back to normal.

The pods continue to flourish since seeding the tank and adding a pod condo.

 

Pods are the number 1 competitor to dino. All  literature has documented it.

 

I would not add a cuc, fish, or corals during dino.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
mcarroll

Pods are also a primary food for blooming (phagotrophic) dino's much like phyto and bacteria are....it depends on the severity of the bloom and presence of toxins really.

 

That's why the formula is usually first activated carbon and nutrients to shut off the Dino bloom, followed up second by inoculations of microbes and cleanup crew to get the ecosystem back to functional.

 

The second phase is where you would want to include things like pods, phyto, mysid shrimps, coraline algae, etc. 

 

Anything like that that gets added during the first phase when the dinos are still blooming and generating toxins is extremely likely to become food...either directly for the dino's or indirectly by being killed and broken down via bacterial action to then become food later.

 

The catch in that formula is that not all tanks have toxins and the ones that do have toxins don't all have the same amount.  

 

To say the least: all tanks with dino blooms are not equal.  

 

In some cases remediation happens with nothing more than removing the offending filtration components like GFO....or by simply dosing nutrients for a short time.  While in other cases Dino's have decimated the entire tank so there's nothing left but Dino's and cyanobacteria.  That full range of experience is definitely possible.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
justinkdenny

I have been feeding more to hopefully raise my nitrates and phosphates.  If that doesn't  work, I'll have to try to find some products to directly add to the tank to increase those.  I have never ran gfo but I do run carbon.  I am going to continue to run carbon and change often to eliminate toxins.  I am running saxby settings which have a long photoperiod so I'm going to tinker with that too.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
justinkdenny

What are the best products to use to raise nitrates and phosphates?  Will these do the trick?

Screenshot_20190910-103226_Amazon Shopping.jpg

Screenshot_20190910-103206_Amazon Shopping.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
seabass

Share this post


Link to post
mcarroll

No traces in those.  That's only the main Flourish product.  (Confusing marketing IMO so good to be aware of when you're buying!)

 

I don't think there's a problem with either brand based on the experiences I've seen with folks using them....just follow directions on the dosing concentration for each product!  🙂  🙂 

 

I will say for what it's worth that Seachem labels their ingredients -- potassium phosphates and potassium nitrates+urea, respectively. 

 

(Urea is like nitrogen like this:Structural formula of urea More or less nitrogen+water.)

 

Brightwell enigmatically claims "proprietary salts" on both products.  😉 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
justinkdenny
1 hour ago, mcarroll said:

No traces in those.  That's only the main Flourish product.  (Confusing marketing IMO so good to be aware of when you're buying!)

 

I don't think there's a problem with either brand based on the experiences I've seen with folks using them....just follow directions on the dosing concentration for each product!  🙂  🙂 

 

I will say for what it's worth that Seachem labels their ingredients -- potassium phosphates and potassium nitrates+urea, respectively. 

 

(Urea is like nitrogen like this:Structural formula of urea More or less nitrogen+water.)

 

Brightwell enigmatically claims "proprietary salts" on both products.  😉 

 

When dosing.  What numbers am I shooting for as far as phosphates and nitrates go to combat dinos?

Share this post


Link to post
Clown79
1 hour ago, justinkdenny said:

When dosing.  What numbers am I shooting for as far as phosphates and nitrates go to combat dinos?

When I had dino's, they didn't start going away until my phos hit 0.08. ideally phos should be 0.03

 

Nitrates 2-10

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
justinkdenny
3 hours ago, Clown79 said:

When I had dino's, they didn't start going away until my phos hit 0.08. ideally phos should be 0.03

 

Nitrates 2-10

My nitrates are close to 2 now. Think I'm still going to buy nitrate and phosphate supplements.   I've been feeding real heavy for a while now and still not showing phosphates.   Is it wierd that all the algae growing is brown.  The film on glass is brown.  What looks like hair algae is brown.   And of course the dinoflagellates are brown.  My 75 gallon film and hair algae was green.

Share this post


Link to post
seabass
1 hour ago, justinkdenny said:

I've been feeding real heavy for a while now and still not showing phosphates. 

What brand test kit are you using?  If it's a high range kit like API, then it won't detect phosphate until it's at least 0.25 ppm.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
mcarroll

When you look at a sample now under the scope is it all dino's or a mix of stuff?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
j.falk
On 9/7/2019 at 4:42 PM, justinkdenny said:

Where do you guys use to buy pods.  Algaebarn looks pretty good and sale pod and phytoplankton sets together but I wouldn't know which to choose since they have quite a few different types of pods.

Reefcleaners.org has pods for sale in the tank cleaners section.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
paulsz
12 hours ago, justinkdenny said:

My nitrates are close to 2 now. Think I'm still going to buy nitrate and phosphate supplements.   I've been feeding real heavy for a while now and still not showing phosphates.   Is it wierd that all the algae growing is brown.  The film on glass is brown.  What looks like hair algae is brown.   And of course the dinoflagellates are brown.  My 75 gallon film and hair algae was green.

 

Yes go that route (buy the seachem phosphorus and nitrogen). I aimed to get my nitrates at 5-10 and my phosphates to 0.1 when i was fighting dinos. You may notice that phosphates won't go up for a while (even while dosing). The dry rock may be absorbing it. Keep dosing and eventually you'll get it. I think I used to dose close to 0.5 or even 1 ppm worth of phosphates daily and it took me a couple of weeks to see anything on a test kit. 

 

With that said, don't go off dosing as much as i did. Take it at your own pace (try 0.1 ppm for phosphates per day to start). 

 

I had brown stuff all over my glass, sand, rocks. Couldn't tell you what was dinos and what was algae. 

 

As for clean up crew - avoid snails. I believe dinos are toxic to snails. I had a bunch in there and they slowly died off within a couple of weeks. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
justinkdenny
10 hours ago, seabass said:

What brand test kit are you using?  If it's a high range kit like API, then it won't detect phosphate until it's at least 0.25 ppm.

Salifert 

Share this post


Link to post
justinkdenny
6 hours ago, mcarroll said:

When you look at a sample now under the scope is it all dino's or a mix of stuff?

I didn't have much success with the microscope.   I took a sample,  before it was bad, to a high school lab where my friend works and we didn't find much. This is what I found and they were moving around.  I found a thread that had a pic on it about dinos that look like these.  Haven't checked it lately under scope.

Screenshot_20190906-164717_Gallery.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
justinkdenny
54 minutes ago, paulsz said:

 

Yes go that route (buy the seachem phosphorus and nitrogen). I aimed to get my nitrates at 5-10 and my phosphates to 0.1 when i was fighting dinos. You may notice that phosphates won't go up for a while (even while dosing). The dry rock may be absorbing it. Keep dosing and eventually you'll get it. I think I used to dose close to 0.5 or even 1 ppm worth of phosphates daily and it took me a couple of weeks to see anything on a test kit. 

 

With that said, don't go off dosing as much as i did. Take it at your own pace (try 0.1 ppm for phosphates per day to start). 

 

I had brown stuff all over my glass, sand, rocks. Couldn't tell you what was dinos and what was algae. 

 

As for clean up crew - avoid snails. I believe dinos are toxic to snails. I had a bunch in there and they slowly died off within a couple of weeks. 

Thanks for the info.  I lost a few snails in the beginning of the fight but have since been changing carbon weekly and they seem to stay alive better.  They still dont seem to work as good as ones I have had in times past.  The stringy brown stuff on the corals dont seem to go into water column at night.  Is that normal?

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recommended Discussions

×
×
  • Create New...