albertthiel Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 I will let Albert answer that one as he is smarter than I am. But I got two Bananna fish today, just because I could Very nice Paul ... Albert Quote Link to comment
albertthiel Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 not a problem, ty for taking the time to reply. You my want to post a picture of those worms as I am not sure that have a large number of Eurnice worms in your tank. Most who have then find one or maybe two of them and that is really it and they are usually hiding out in the sandbed and not in the rocks. Anyway should the worms be Eunicid ones, and if you want to proceed with what you had in mind, what you would do is the following: Get and HOB filter to hand on the 10 gallon transfer 5 gallons of water from the existing tank to the 10 make sure you only transfer water and nothing else at this point run that water through a filter sock of a very fine mesh, the finer the better, so it traps anything that is floating around in the water. Add 5 galloon of salt water that was prepared a day before Make sure the parameters of the water in the 10 are as close as you can get them to the ones in the 20 (nitrate and phosphate obviously do not matter here) Get the HOB to run for 48 hours The HOB filter should have fresh compounds and filter floss in it, nothing from the 20 as you cannot be sure that there are no eggs or larvae of anything in whatever else you transfer Add a Poly Filter from Poly Bio Marine to the HOB to absorb ammonia etc .... Use the other compounds you now use in the HOB as well Stabilize the water in the 10 by letting everything run for the 48 hours mentioned The tank is now ready for you to transfer your fish and your corals Inspect each piece of coral very carefully to make sure there are no HH's on them Best is to perform a dip on them before transferring them using Revive for instance Transfer your snails and other crustaceans to the 10 Make sure you do not transfer anything unwanted from one tank to the other I would not re-use the sand but add new sand when you set the 20 back up you can run the 10 bare bottom since you will not be running it for all that long Do not transfer any live rock from the 20 o the 10 not even that one piece you think is worm free You never know what is hiding in it (and as I said I am not sure that the worms you have are Eunice or similar and are of the very nasty kind .. but to be sure I would have to see an image of a few of the worms In the 10 you do not need any rock for now, the transfer of the 5 gals of water and the compounds used in the HOB should ensure that your water does not build up any unwanted components (ammonia and nitrite) You can now bathe your rock in the acid baths you intended to bathe them in How to prepare the acid bath depends on what you use If you use muriatic acid from a pool place or from a big box store, a 50/50 mix of water and the acid compound should do the job Leave the rock in there for at least 24 hours Then rinse that rock with FW by spraying it off with a hose or so Once that is done put the rock back in the acid bath and let it sit for another 24 hours Rinse the rock very well again and this time for longer so you are sure that all the acidity is gone Test by placing the rock in some fresh SW, let it sit for about 2 hours and then test the pH. The pH should be in the normal SW range. When starting to acid bathe the rock you should also acid bathe the 20 Again after that rinse the 20 really well to make sure you have gotten rid of all the acidity you are now ready to start filling the 20 again with SW (take some of the water from the 10 and fill the 20 with fresh SW Run your filters on the 20 and add the rock back and also add some new live sand. Run that tank for 96 hours and test to make sure you are not seeing any ammonia develop Start transferring the live stock back to the 20 Test twice a day for ammonia and after a few days for nitrite and perform water changes to keep any build up of them to 0 This is where it is crucial to really keep an eye on what is going on as you do not want any ammonia etc to build up and you need to compensate for it if any shows up, by doing water changes. This means that you will need to have a good amount of fresh SW available e.g. in a garbage can (large). Do not transfer all the animals in one session. Transfer ⅓ at a time every 4 to 5 days After about 2 weeks all life forms should now be back in the 20 And you are now done NOW ... if what you have in the 20 currently are not Eurnice Worms ... all of the above may not be necessary ... So post me some pictures of those worms so I can see what they look like ... I am not convinced that you have plenty of Eunicid worms as you say ... but it could be ... Hope this helps and if you have further questions, do let me know ALBERT Quote Link to comment
budshark Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 HI Albert, TY TY TY for the detailed response, this is exactly what i was looking for!!! Below are some pics of the tank and the worms in question. the pics below are only of one of the worms. i have 3-5 in every rock and also found them in the sand before. ive verified its the Eunicid variety by finding a picture of it in the following link http://www.chucksaddiction.com/hitchworms.html picture 4 and 5 under the eunicid section is exactly what i have. Please let me know if you agree or disagree with the ID but im pretty sure im correct. Sugar Bear from ReefCentral also said he beleived it was a eunicid. in the description of this worm its states "a typical rock burrow that the larger specimens, such as the one above, will fashion by "gluing" rocks together with a mucus secretion" all my worms do this. Although..............in this website as well it states...."The eunicids sometimes known as "rock worms" are mainly omnivores and live largely on detritus. They may be scavengers, and are found mostly in rocky habitats". All ive read about these worms has said that when they get bigger their appetite will change and they will go after corals and fish. This is the only website ive seen that has not said anything "bad" about this worm. 1 Quote Link to comment
budshark Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 i got this rock from a very trusted and very highly rated source on many forums and havent found anyone else having the issue i do. I have to beleive that they have as many of these worms as i do. And seeing how mine is only 20lbs of rock, i cant imagine the issue someone would have with more rock. Ive also gotten rid of at least 10 gorilla crabs that i had to catch out of the tank. There are still two left somewhere....grrr........ 1 Quote Link to comment
albertthiel Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 HI Albert, TY TY TY for the detailed response, this is exactly what i was looking for!!! Below are some pics of the tank and the worms in question. the pics below are only of one of the worms. i have 3-5 in every rock and also found them in the sand before. ive verified its the Eunicid variety by finding a picture of it in the following link http://www.chucksaddiction.com/hitchworms.html picture 4 and 5 under the eunicid section is exactly what i have. Please let me know if you agree or disagree with the ID but im pretty sure im correct. Sugar Bear from ReefCentral also said he beleived it was a eunicid. in the description of this worm its states "a typical rock burrow that the larger specimens, such as the one above, will fashion by "gluing" rocks together with a mucus secretion" all my worms do this. Although..............in this website as well it states...."The eunicids sometimes known as "rock worms" are mainly omnivores and live largely on detritus. They may be scavengers, and are found mostly in rocky habitats". All ive read about these worms has said that when they get bigger their appetite will change and they will go after corals and fish. This is the only website ive seen that has not said anything "bad" about this worm. Yes they are indeed nasty nasty .... Reef Buiders at one point posted an article on them and there are many videos on the Net if you search for Bobbit Worm where you can see how they capture fish etc .. http://reefbuilders.com/2014/02/27/eunice-worm-pet/ Best indeed to get rid of them if you have that many as when they get large they become opportunistic feeders as pointed out in a number of articles Albert 1 Quote Link to comment
albertthiel Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 i got this rock from a very trusted and very highly rated source on many forums and havent found anyone else having the issue i do. I have to beleive that they have as many of these worms as i do. And seeing how mine is only 20lbs of rock, i cant imagine the issue someone would have with more rock. Ive also gotten rid of at least 10 gorilla crabs that i had to catch out of the tank. There are still two left somewhere....grrr........ Well I guess not so trustworthy after all if that is what you got and the Gorilla carbs on top of it ... WOW ... that is definitely not a good source for rock ... Sorry you are running into all of these issues with that rock Here is a close up of the Bobbit Worm http://vimeo.com/28280553 Albert 1 Quote Link to comment
budshark Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Thank you so much for all the advice and help. youve helped me more in a couple posts than anyone else has at all!!! Thinking about it now im very bummed.....i have so much diversity within the rock that will be lost and im sure the transfer process will be difficult on the fish and corals and i might lose some que cera cera i guess. Funny thing....i went to the website where i bought the live rock and he has a "catalog of organisms" section, that shows what critters might come on the rock. I found a picture of this eunicid worm and he has it listed as a PEANUT WORM hahahahahah. Wonder if i should reach out and let him know? 1 Quote Link to comment
albertthiel Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Thank you so much for all the advice and help. youve helped me more in a couple posts than anyone else has at all!!! Thinking about it now im very bummed.....i have so much diversity within the rock that will be lost and im sure the transfer process will be difficult on the fish and corals and i might lose some que cera cera i guess. Funny thing....i went to the website where i bought the live rock and he has a "catalog of organisms" section, that shows what critters might come on the rock. I found a picture of this eunicid worm and he has it listed as a PEANUT WORM hahahahahah. Wonder if i should reach out and let him know? Well glad the info was of help to you and yes I would point that fact that you ended up with a bunch of Eunice worms out to them. Maybe there are Peanut worms in the rock but there is obviously a lot more than just those as you have found out. If you go about the transfer in the manner described I do not think that you will loose any fish or corals. The alternative is to try and catch the worms with a trap in which you put food and see whether you can get most of them out that way and keep trapping them till you feel you have them all ... not sure whether that will work but it may be worth a try as if you manage to catch a few each night then as you continue you will eventually get them all. You could also put the rocks in the 10 gallon and leave the life forms in the DT and try to trap the worms in the 10 in a good worm trap in which you place food (a piece of clam or a piece of shrimp or similar). In most cases there should not be all that many in any tank as the number will be somewhat self-limiting due to the availability of food ... and so the trap method may work. On another note : when dealing with the rock the way you intended be very careful for possible toxins being released by some of the life forms on the rock .. (e.g. Zoas and Palys) so you do no get any of it into a scratch or wound on your hand or arm (wear gloves) and protect your eyes ... and also do this outside if you can so any fumes do not remain confined to a small space ... use as much caution as you can. Albert 1 Quote Link to comment
budshark Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 hmmmmm your idea of putting the rock in the 10g and making a worm trap sounds interesting. Would i be able to move all the live rock over to the 10g with just all new SW in it? and then can i "starve" that tank for like a week lets say and then put in the trap while everything is starved that way maybe i have greater success in catching them? if i do starve the tank what amount of time would be good ? and is there any detriment to me "starving" the tank with all the live rock? 1 Quote Link to comment
albertthiel Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 hmmmmm your idea of putting the rock in the 10g and making a worm trap sounds interesting. Would i be able to move all the live rock over to the 10g with just all new SW in it? and then can i "starve" that tank for like a week lets say and then put in the trap while everything is starved that way maybe i have greater success in catching them? if i do starve the tank what amount of time would be good ? and is there any detriment to me "starving" the tank with all the live rock? hmmmmm your idea of putting the rock in the 10g and making a worm trap sounds interesting. Would i be able to move all the live rock over to the 10g with just all new SW in it? and then can i "starve" that tank for like a week lets say and then put in the trap while everything is starved that way maybe i have greater success in catching them? if i do starve the tank what amount of time would be good ? and is there any detriment to me "starving" the tank with all the live rock? No need to starve the rock IMO ... just place the rock in the 10 with new SW and put the trap in with some bait and see whether you can catch worms and keep doing so till none are caught any longer Not that it may take a few days before you catch the first one ... Also remember that leave the sand in the 20 till you feel that you caught all the worms ... and once you get to that stage, you remove the sand from the 20 and replace it with new sand and then add the rock back ... The bio filter will be the sand bed in the 20 basically till you put the rock back in Also rather than placing the rock in the 10 with all new SW I would use 5 gallons of SW from the 20 and 5 gals of new water to minimize the change that the life forms on the rock have to go through These are alternative methods I can think of and you will need to decide which one you think will work best for you .... Albert 1 Quote Link to comment
budshark Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Again great advice. I will try the trap removal process at first and use the acid wash as my last resort. Thanks again for all the help. Youve helped me immensely on how to begin this process and keep my livestock around. Happy Reefing 1 Quote Link to comment
albertthiel Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Again great advice. I will try the trap removal process at first and use the acid wash as my last resort. Thanks again for all the help. Youve helped me immensely on how to begin this process and keep my livestock around. Happy Reefing Thanks for the kind words and keep me posted on how things develop once you start the process Glad I was able to help some Albert Quote Link to comment
Subsea Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Good morning Albert, I decided to take my mind of the tax deadline and celebrate an achievment. A young newbie came to my facility for live rock last week. Within a short time, I realized his potential to provide marketing in the form of quality video productions. We agreed to exchange live rock for quality video. I hope that you enjoy it as much as I did. The video is of my 12 year old 75G Jaubert Plenumn with a 30G mud/macro refugium. Lights on the tank are provided by 6' of BML 12K reef spectrum. Laissez la bonne temps roulee, Patrick 3 Quote Link to comment
albertthiel Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Good morning Albert, I decided to make my mind of the tax deadline and celebrate an achievment. A young newbie came to my facility for live rock last week. Within a short time, I reealized his potential to provide marketing in the form of quality video productions. We agreed to exchange live rock for quality video. I hope that you enjoy it as much as I did. The video is of my 12 year old 75G Jaubert Plenumn with a 30G mud/macro refugium. Lights on the tank are provided by 6' of BML 12K reef spectrum. Laissez la bonne temps roulee, Patrick That was definitely a good idea as the video is high quality indeed and tank look great Patrick ... Thanks for sharing the Vid Albert 1 Quote Link to comment
Subsea Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Albert, While the visit last week by two word class scientist from academia did not produce a business production contract, it was very rewarding on several fronts. First, it massaged my ego. When two pHd micro biologist with more than 60 years of hands on knowledge are kneeling on a hardwood floor peering into a mud/macro refugium, it surprised me. These two scientist were asking me questions like I was the teacher. I have accepted the gracious invitation to take a VIP tour of the UT Marine Bioscience Department. This department is 90% funded by sales of micro algae, 10% of their funding comes from grants issued by National Science Foundation. Most of their sales go to academia but there is an ever increasing market for environmental mediation using micro algae to clean up pollution. To visit a world class facility with two department heads as my personnel guide is big time ego food. When I answered the gracious invite from Jerry Brand, I wrote him that I would be wearing lead shoes because I did not want the big head to float me away. It has been a very good week and I celebrate this news with you. Your Cajun friend, Patrick 1 Quote Link to comment
albertthiel Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Albert, While the visit last week by two word class scientist from academia did not produce a business production contract, it was very rewarding on several fronts. First, it massaged my ego. When two pHd micro biologist with more than 60 years of hands on knowledge are kneeling on a hardwood floor peering into a mud/macro refugium, it surprised me. These two scientist were asking me questions like I was the teacher. I have accepted the gracious invitation to take a VIP tour of the UT Marine Bioscience Department. This department is 90% funded by sales of micro algae, 10% of their funding comes from grants issued by National Science Foundation. Most of their sales go to academia but there is an ever increasing market for environmental mediation using micro algae to clean up pollution. To visit a world class facility with two department heads as my personnel guide is big time ego food. When I answered the gracious invite from Jerry Brand, I wrote him that I would be wearing lead shoes because I did not want the big head to float me away. It has been a very good week and I celebrate this news with you. Your Cajun friend, Patrick All I can say Patrick is WOW ... that is an honor for you for sure and certainly, as you note, an "ego booster" for sure especially when the scientists show so much interest in what you are doing and then extend an invitation for you to come and visit them at the UT Marine Bioscience Department .... that will be quite an experience indeed. Congratulations on that achievement and you must obviously be doing a number of things they like or they would not have expressed the interest they did and would not have invited you to the Lab .... Power to you Patrick Albert Quote Link to comment
albertthiel Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 I will let Albert answer that one as he is smarter than I am. But I got two Bananna fish today, just because I could So how are they doing Paul .... Albert Quote Link to comment
Paul.b Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 The two bananas are doing great. Very colorful little suckers, almost fluorescent yellow. They eat a lot and I could tell they will grow fast and I will have to catch them to give away. 1 Quote Link to comment
albertthiel Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 The two bananas are doing great. Very colorful little suckers, almost fluorescent yellow. They eat a lot and I could tell they will grow fast and I will have to catch them to give away. Glad to read it ... and I guess when they get real large they will be easy to catch ... Very nice looking fish indeed Albert Quote Link to comment
atoll Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 The video is great just one concern the Sea Apple did you know they can die suddenly and are very toxic to fish? Good morning Albert, I decided to take my mind of the tax deadline and celebrate an achievment. A young newbie came to my facility for live rock last week. Within a short time, I realized his potential to provide marketing in the form of quality video productions. We agreed to exchange live rock for quality video. I hope that you enjoy it as much as I did. The video is of my 12 year old 75G Jaubert Plenumn with a 30G mud/macro refugium. Lights on the tank are provided by 6' of BML 12K reef spectrum.Laissez la bonne temps roulee,Patrick 1 Quote Link to comment
albertthiel Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 The video is great just one concern the Sea Apple did you know they can die suddenly and are very toxic to fish? Good morning Albert, Yes indeed .... they can certainly do that if they get harassed or die off and release all their toxin into the tank. And Good evening to you Les .... good to see you post ... Albert 1 Quote Link to comment
atoll Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Good evening Albert I hope you are well after your recent trips? Now I feel sure Subsea will know of the dangers of such a toxic animal and will keep a very close eye on it however I would never advise anybody having one. I have known whole tank fish wipe outs when they eject their inners. Not fore the faint heated that's for sire. Yes indeed .... they can certainly do that if they get harassed or die off and release all their toxin into the tank. And Good evening to you Les .... good to see you post ... Albert 1 Quote Link to comment
albertthiel Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Good evening Albert I hope you are well after your recent trips? Now I feel sure Subsea will know of the dangers of such a toxic animal and will keep a very close eye on it however I would never advise anybody having one. I have known whole tank fish wipe outs when they eject their inners. Not fore the faint heated that's for sire. Yes Les a good evening to you too ... and I am still recuperating from my trips to Warwick RI and the to Ottawa ... long tiring ones for sure. And as a result I am behind on a number of things I was hoping to have taken care of, one of them being the next Nano Reef Aquarium Newsletter and a few other articles I have to write ... but I hope to catch up this week.... I agree that Patrick more than likely knows of the dangers of keeping them ... not sure how long he had the one we saw but I am pretty sure that he knows about the dangers keeping them ... You have a great evening .... and TTYL Albert Quote Link to comment
Subsea Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 The video is great just one concern the Sea Apple did you know they can die suddenly and are very toxic to fish? Good morning Albert, A year after I got my first Sea Apple, I bought 15 to put in different systems. During the second year, one died in a 75G tank. It was several days before I was aware of it. The smell of it was as bad as I have ever experienced. My hand stunk throughout the day. However, the tank biofilter absorbed everything with no ill effects. Patrick 1 Quote Link to comment
albertthiel Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 A year after I got my first Sea Apple, I bought 15 to put in different systems. During the second year, one died in a 75G tank. It was several days before I was aware of it. The smell of it was as bad as I have ever experienced. My hand stunk throughout the day. However, the tank biofilter absorbed everything with no ill effects. Patrick Glad to read it Patrick ... as I have read and come across quite a few horror stories where one died in a smaller tank, and also when one got harassed / bullied by fish and ejected its innards into the tank ... and killed everything off in the process. And you are absolutely correct the smell is unreal ... one would never imagine that it could be so bad Albert Quote Link to comment
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