THE OFFICIAL ASK ALBERT THIEL THREAD

[Paul.b]

Patick I only did one tour there and that was enough, but I also like the Moody Blues. I started my tank as soon as I got home.

[Subsea]

Patick I only did one tour there and that was enough, but I also like the Moody Blues. I started my tank as soon as I got home.

 

During those early days home, I also set up my first marine tank. It was a Galveston Bay biotheme. I had just enrolled in the Texas Maritime Academy as a Marine Engineer. With a GI Bill grant of $175 a month, money was tight. I was gifted a 55G tank with a broken side. Using crushed up oyster shells from the chicken feed store and an under gravel filter, I collected water near shore on an incoming tide. With critters collected at the jetties and saltwater marshes, I found that peace. It is a journey without an end. That was fifty years ago. Just this week, I found my self listening to the Blue Danube fixated on my tank in that peaceful place.

Patrick

[Paul.b]

You set up your tank almost exactly like I did only I used driveway gravel and water from the East River next to Manhattan.

I still have the UG filter in there.

[Subsea]

During the last three months, I have been conducting a semi-scientific study on biofiltration efficiencies of different media that are foundational in the hobby: diver collected coarse substrate, oolite sand, bioballs, live rock, rock rubble, ceramic media and Sponge Bob. Eight 10G tanks were set up with tank #8 as a control tank with nothing in it but water. The same aquifer ground water was mixed to 1.024 SpG in a Rubbermaid tank and added to all tanks. Clear ammonia is added to each tank as a nutrient source. All tanks were inoculated with Dr. Tim's bacteria. I choose to use API test kits. For quality control and quality assurance, I elected to use an agricultural lab as a check against my testing procedures. The two control parameters that I am using are ammonia .5 - 8 ppm and nitrate 50 - 150 ppm. When nitrate reaches

150 ppm I stop adding ammonia until it drops below 50 ppm.

 

I am well into the test and I am surprised with a recent change of events in ammonia processing. Initially, both bio balls and rock rubble contributed ammonia to the tank. In the case of bio balls I was not surprised as I had not completely cleaned them. The rock rubble was a collection of pieces of all types of dry rock sold by BRS.

During the first month, live rock was the leader with coarse substrate, oolite sand and Sponge Bob in that order. With increasing nuisance micro algae, the coarse substrate and oolite sand maintained steady state processing of ammonia. I decided at the beginning of the study that I would not interfere with the processes in each tank. Of recent, rock rubble has walked away from live rock in processing ammonia and nitrate. My big surprise is that both Sponge Bob and bio balls are processing large amounts of both ammonia & nitrate. The tank with the sponges is not as big a surprise as the bio balls. Sponge Bob consist of two different aquarium filters. One in-tank corner filter with an air uplift tube and a sponge removed from AC50 HOB filter. I theorized that with passive circulation within the tank there would be reducing oxygen conditions within the interior of the sponge. I can not understand the performance of the bio balls with respect to nitrate processing. While not conclusive, there is a trend. I just did receive the first sample test results from Ward Lab and had a question on total nitrogen reading. Apparently, there are two different methods to read total (inorganic and organic) nitrogen. They used the combustion method which is not sensitive on the lower end of the scale and will redo the test with the other method.

At the end of the day, I will list the results to date on the biological filtration thread. Any input is appreciated.

Patrick

[albertthiel]

During the last three months, I have been conducting a semi-scientific study on biofiltration efficiencies of different media that are foundational in the hobby: diver collected coarse substrate, oolite sand, bioballs, live rock, rock rubble, ceramic media and Sponge Bob. Eight 10G tanks were set up with tank #8 as a control tank with nothing in it but water. The same aquifer ground water was mixed to 1.024 SpG in a Rubbermaid tank and added to all tanks. Clear ammonia is added to each tank as a nutrient source. All tanks were inoculated with Dr. Tim's bacteria. I choose to use API test kits. For quality control and quality assurance, I elected to use an agricultural lab as a check against my testing procedures. The two control parameters that I am using are ammonia .5 - 8 ppm and nitrate 50 - 150 ppm. When nitrate reaches

150 ppm I stop adding ammonia until it drops below 50 ppm.

 

I am well into the test and I am surprised with a recent change of events in ammonia processing. Initially, both bio balls and rock rubble contributed ammonia to the tank. In the case of bio balls I was not surprised as I had not completely cleaned them. The rock rubble was a collection of pieces of all types of dry rock sold by BRS.

During the first month, live rock was the leader with coarse substrate, oolite sand and Sponge Bob in that order. With increasing nuisance micro algae, the coarse substrate and oolite sand maintained steady state processing of ammonia. I decided at the beginning of the study that I would not interfere with the processes in each tank. Of recent, rock rubble has walked away from live rock in processing ammonia and nitrate. My big surprise is that both Sponge Bob and bio balls are processing large amounts of both ammonia & nitrate. The tank with the sponges is not as big a surprise as the bio balls. Sponge Bob consist of two different aquarium filters. One in-tank corner filter with an air uplift tube and a sponge removed from AC50 HOB filter. I theorized that with passive circulation within the tank there would be reducing oxygen conditions within the interior of the sponge. I can not understand the performance of the bio balls with respect to nitrate processing. While not conclusive, there is a trend. I just did receive the first sample test results from Ward Lab and had a question on total nitrogen reading. Apparently, there are two different methods to read total (inorganic and organic) nitrogen. They used the combustion method which is not sensitive on the lower end of the scale and will redo the test with the other method.

At the end of the day, I will list the results to date on the biological filtration thread. Any input is appreciated.

Patrick

 

Very interesting Patrick and please do post any further results here as well or at least a link to whatever thread you are posting them on.

 

At this point I will wait to see the numbers before making any comments on your findings but certainly they are going to be very interesting.

 

Albert

[Subsea]

Patick I only did one tour there and that was enough, but I also like the Moody Blues. I started my tank as soon as I got home.

Paul,

Your tour was much different then mine. You were a Airborne clvary. I spent four 90 day TDY tours as a flight mechanic on Puff the Magic Dragon dealing with Khamer Rouge in Cambodia. We were a special operations unit combined with 82 Airborne Rangers. It was interesting. As I was the only Air Force mechanic that volunteered to maintain a squadron of dilapidated DC-6 left over from WWII, I received special treatment and had a personnel bodyguard of a squad of rangers. After I enlisted aid from the local villages to help me do the mechanic work, I put there lives in jeopardy with the Khamer Rouge. Initially, I paid them with food and cloths, but the CIA saw the propaganda value and increased the the payoff to guns and drugs.

At 21 years old, it was an adrenaline rush. At 65 years old, I seldom think about it as there are skeletons in the closet.

Regards,

Patrick

[Subsea]

Here are the results from the water testing you sent in. I did not upload the actual images of the pdf as they were a pain, so I compiled your information with the test results in Excel and am linking it here.

 

Note: The 0.1 ppm readings are the limit of detection, meaning that it's as low as they can test for so anything here listed at 0.1 ppm means that it might be lower than that. We have to label it as such, though. Also note: AmmoniUM (NH4) is not the same as AmmoniA (NH3). Close, but technically different readings.

 

Live rock rubble is in the lead. It has processed a good amount of ammonia and has resulted in low nitrates, as well as what seems to be decent denitrification (N₂ reading) - it depends on how they actually tested for nitrogen. Nitrites are a bit high but that could simply be that the water sample was taken in the middle of the ammonia oxidation to nitrite and subsequent oxidation to nitrate.

 

Live rock is next, which makes sense given that rubble is in first. Rubble has a LOT of surface area that is exposed to oxygen (a requirement for nitrification), but chunk rock is almost as good.

 

Sponge bob is doing pretty well. I'm not surprised given that both sponges in the tank came from previously established tanks, meaning they are ready to go. I assume there is no sand in those tanks? Sponges also provide decent surface area and plenty of water flow.

 

One concerning thing is the fact that the ceramic rock is processing less than the control tank. I'm not sure how that could be the case.

 

Another point of note: the bacteria involved in processing ammonia to nitrate are extremely sensitive to light and UV - in fact, I've been reading and it seems that (I was totally incorrect about this, by the way), they do not grow on ALL surfaces in a tank. The UV from light pretty much kills them on any surface including glass, rear walls, plastic, powerheads, etc. They only exist in the substrate where the light can't get to them. The tanks might be processing differently if they are in different light situations.

The above was posted to nitrate factory thread by Tibbs, who is helping me with advice and guidelines.

Patrick

 

Very interesting Patrick and please do post any further results here as well or at least a link to whatever thread you are posting them on.

 

At this point I will wait to see the numbers before making any comments on your findings but certainly they are going to be very interesting.

 

Albert

[Subsea]

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/337332-nitrate-factory/page-5#entry4682276

 

Albert,

This is a link to the thread. The results posted were from Ward Lab, which specilizes in agricultural nutrients. The readings on total nitrogen were conducted using the combuston technique to quantify organic and inorganic nitrogen. In speaking with the owner of the company, he will redo this test as it is not sensitive on the lower end of the scale.

The samples are two weeks old. Since they were sent in, Sponge Bob and Bio balls have quadrupled their ammonia and nitrate processing. I measure ammonia everyday and add as required. I measure nitrate every couple of days.

Patrick

[Paul.b]

I wasn't a POW that I remember but I spent the entire year in clearings in the jungle on the Cambodian border. I never saw a road, building, electricity, roof, wall or running water unless it was running down my face and I ate mostly C rations.

One year was enough and we lost so many guys in my unit that I doubt I would have lived through another year.

They just came out with a book about the first week I was there called FSB Illingworth. I can't post a link as for some reason, my posting doesn't work on this site. It only works for people with hair.

[Subsea]

http://www.thehistoryreader.com/contemporary-history/april-1-1970-fire-base-illingworth-hell-earth/

 

 

I have hair on my face. I was able to post the link.

 

Paul,

I salute you and the men that died on that hill. Thank you for your service..

Patrick

[Paul.b]

Subsea, thank you for posting that link. I just read it again and I shouldn't have.

[Subsea]

Paul,

 

That is the reason I decided not to write about Captain Jack. Too much pain visiting the memories.

 

Hug the wife and grandchildren twice tonight. You have lived a good life and you bring joy to many people. I consider it a privilege to know you.

Patrick

[atoll]

A short history of my lighting over 30 years of marine reefkeeping.

 

I started with good old inefficient T8s all that was available at the time was warm white and growlux tubes. My attention was drawn to Northlight tubes that were cooler. later came Wotan mercury vapour lights 80w. I had 4 over a 6'6" tank. Then came MH the problem with MH was the cost even then they were over £300 back in the late 80s early 90s here in the UK with a K of around 5400 but they improved of course. I have tried most kinds of lighting (not tried plasma) and in all honesty I wouldn't go back to any of them now. I have full spectrum LED's and they are superior IMO than previous lighting inc the white and blue only LED's that some still prefer.

 

Maybe the best is yet to come and in all probability there will be improvements and not only with LED's. Viva the revolution. I just think some of the colour LED's out there at the moment are a step too far and are false gods with the gaudy looking colours they produce in many corals.

[albertthiel]

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/337332-nitrate-factory/page-5#entry4682276

 

Albert,

This is a link to the thread. The results posted were from Ward Lab, which specilizes in agricultural nutrients. The readings on total nitrogen were conducted using the combuston technique to quantify organic and inorganic nitrogen. In speaking with the owner of the company, he will redo this test as it is not sensitive on the lower end of the scale.

The samples are two weeks old. Since they were sent in, Sponge Bob and Bio balls have quadrupled their ammonia and nitrate processing. I measure ammonia everyday and add as required. I measure nitrate every couple of days.

Patrick

 

I will go to the thread for more information as right now I am a bit lost so to speak in what you are actually trying to demonstrate particularly because some of the media used came from existing tanks and would therefore already probably have rem ants of previous bacterial cultures on them which would IMO make it difficult to compare results.

 

And some of the other media came from natural environments and may therefore also have harbored bacteria as well

 

So not sure what this is going to actually prove .. but I will need to read the thread before making any other comments

 

... thanks Patrick ...

 

Albert

[Subsea]

I will go to the thread for more information as right now I am a bit lost so to speak in what you are actually trying to demonstrate particularly because some of the media used came from existing tanks and would therefore already probably have rem ants of previous bacterial cultures on them which would IMO make it difficult to compare results.

 

And some of the other media came from natural environments and may therefore also have harbored bacteria as well

 

So not sure what this is going to actually prove .. but I will need to read the thread before making any other comments

 

... thanks Patrick ...

 

Albert

 

True, it is not scientific enough to prove anything. Initially, it was a training tool for a new hire apprentice. In general, it shows that all media work to perform biofiltration. In particular, I choose bio balls to be in the study to address the overused quote that "bioballs were a nitrate factory". I did not expect the bio balls to process nitrate.

Patrick

[albertthiel]

A short history of my lighting over 30 years of marine reefkeeping.

 

I started with good old inefficient T8s all that was available at the time was warm white and growlux tubes. My attention was drawn to Northlight tubes that were cooler. later came Wotan mercury vapour lights 80w. I had 4 over a 6'6" tank. Then came MH the problem with MH was the cost even then they were over £300 back in the late 80s early 90s here in the UK with a K of around 5400 but they improved of course. I have tried most kinds of lighting (not tried plasma) and in all honesty I wouldn't go back to any of them now. I have full spectrum LED's and they are superior IMO than previous lighting inc the white and blue only LED's that some still prefer.

 

Maybe the best is yet to come and in all probability there will be improvements and not only with LED's. Viva the revolution. I just think some of the colour LED's out there at the moment are a step too far and are false gods with the gaudy looking colours they produce in many corals.

 

Yes Les I remember all of those lights too and how we progressively got better ones, as you say at a steep price for sure.

 

And now the high end LED 's seem to be going through that same pattern ... $$$$ to get the better ones ... except maybe that you found those Chinese made ones that appear to give you good lighting and were not all that expensive

 

But as you say, and as I have pointed out there is more to come

 

It should be interesting this coming week end when I am at the OSRAS Convention in Warwick RI, where I am a speaker and where the other speaker is Dr Sanjay Joshi, whose topic is the Myths and truths about LED's ... Since he has tested just about every light that is and has been around, his talk to be enlightening (pun intended) ... I will try to summarize it early next week before taking off for Ottawa for AquaMania (OVAS) ... where there will also be a talk on lighting ...

 

Albert

[Subsea]

A short history of my lighting over 30 years of marine reefkeeping.

 

I started with good old inefficient T8s all that was available at the time was warm white and growlux tubes. My attention was drawn to Northlight tubes that were cooler. later came Wotan mercury vapour lights 80w. I had 4 over a 6'6" tank. Then came MH the problem with MH was the cost even then they were over £300 back in the late 80s early 90s here in the UK with a K of around 5400 but they improved of course. I have tried most kinds of lighting (not tried plasma) and in all honesty I wouldn't go back to any of them now. I have full spectrum LED's and they are superior IMO than previous lighting inc the white and blue only LED's that some still prefer.

 

Maybe the best is yet to come and in all probability there will be improvements and not only with LED's. Viva the revolution. I just think some of the colour LED's out there at the moment are a step too far and are false gods with the gaudy looking colours they produce in many corals.

 

I may be older than you as I started with T12. Metal framed tanks were being phased out in my day. As I am a commercial operation, I still find a use for MH, particularly in outside grow out systems in my greenhouse during the winter.

With the mono specific nature of light emitting diodes, it is difficult for me to understand what full spectrum LED means. Somebody had to decide which spectrum was required for the application in question and to install specific diodes to meet the need. As with most things, there were conflicting demands on what was required. If hobiest would set up tanks with a specific light zone to depth, it would be easier to capture the right light spectrum mix, but most of us do not do this in our display tanks. The point source of light from LED produce a shimmering effect that is only exceeded by MH and natural sunlight. I have had several tanks which were set up near an east window. For about 30 minutes, the sunlight provided a spectacular light show. Not gaudy colors, but shafts of full spectrum lighting that danced across the tank. I have been happy with 12K reef spectrum from Build My LED here in Austin. I am experimenting with B & W duel spectrum and am surprised at the ability of some coral and macroalgae to adapt. For me, as a commercial operation, I see using this duel spectrum LED combination coupled with UV-A agriculture T5 lamps as a low cost productive compromise.

Cheers,

Patrick

[atoll]

I think we could be around the same age Patrick 64 here and yes I well recall angle iron frames which were on the way out also. I did have a small FW tank with an angel iron frame before I got into marines but you could still buy them at the time mostly of SS by then however.

 

I think we have to consider the term "full spectrum" as simply that, a term rather then an actual. The use of a number of different coloured LED's giving them the term "full spectrum" not just blues and whites as we have seen with the early LED units and in fact still being produced.

 

My First LED set up was with Aquaray strips then tiles before I dumped them in favour of a 120w Chinese unit with just blues and white. The Aquaray's worked OK but I sold them for as much as I bought them for and my Chinese LED unit costs me half of what I sold the Aquaray's for.Win win for me on that score.

 

A friend of mine bought more or less the same light as my blue and white only LED unit but with the new full spectrum array of LED's. I was impressed with just how much more natural the light looked on his tank with no more of that harsh blueish look to the tank. I bought the exact same model as his another 120w full spectrum LED and have seen an improvement in my corals using it. A blue tipped Acro in particular which I have always used as a tester corals has far more blue tips and is growing faster. Other corals are doing as equally as well under this new light.

 

I do recall using T12s now that you mention it but my memory isn't what it never was. I think that's down to the grey hair and less grey matter under it.

 

Les.

I may be older than you as I started with T12. Metal framed tanks were being phased out in my day. As I am a commercial operation, I still find a use for MH, particularly in outside grow out systems in my greenhouse during the winter. With the mono specific nature of light emitting diodes, it is difficult for me to understand what full spectrum LED means. Somebody had to decide which spectrum was required for the application in question and to install specific diodes to meet the need. As with most things, there were conflicting demands on what was required. If hobiest would set up tanks with a specific light zone to depth, it would be easier to capture the right light spectrum mix, but most of us do not do this in our display tanks. The point source of light from LED produce a shimmering effect that is only exceeded by MH and natural sunlight. I have had several tanks which were set up near an east window. For about 30 minutes, the sunlight provided a spectacular light show. Not gaudy colors, but shafts of full spectrum lighting that danced across the tank. I have been happy with 12K reef spectrum from Build My LED here in Austin. I am experimenting with B & W duel spectrum and am surprised at the ability of some coral and macroalgae to adapt. For me, as a commercial operation, I see using this duel spectrum LED combination coupled with UV-A agriculture T5 lamps as a low cost productive compromise. Cheers, Patrick

[albertthiel]

How NOT to Die in Australia ......

 

Wow ...

 

 

http://unbridledoptimist.wordpress.com/tag/blue-ringed-octopus-bite-treatment/

 

 

Albert

[Paul.b]

Those stonefish are very common around Tahiti. I saw dozens of them and they are not easy to spot. I only saw them because they resemble a girl I used to Date.

[albertthiel]

Those stonefish are very common around Tahiti. I saw dozens of them and they are not easy to spot. I only saw them because they resemble a girl I used to Date.

 

Yes and in many other places too ... and as you say very hard to see as they blend in so well with their surroundings (which is what they do) and of course if you happen to step on one .. well ... that 's when what is described starts fo happen ...

 

But there are many dangerous creatures in the ocean ... and I am sure you have seen quite a few of them Paul

 

Albert

Sent from Warwick RI where I am till Monday

 

[Paul.b]

There are quite a few of dangerous sea creatures and I have seen many of them. But the only time I was really scared underwater was here in New York where the visability underwater is measured in inches. I was diving off this historic lighthouse and the water was black. All of a sudden something engulfed my head and started smacking me around. It knocked my mask off and almost pulled the regulator out of my mouth. It was big and I was scared. I had a thick wet suit on so I couldn't feel it's skin. I soon found out that it was a cormorant. Yes, a bird. A 4' bird. They dive to catch fish and the thing hit me and kept flapping it's wings around my head. Not something I was expecting underwater. You could see him here on the top of the lighthouse. Harold, thats him.

My picture under my name was taken in that exact spot.

[natalia_la_loca]

There are quite a few of dangerous sea creatures and I have seen many of them. But the only time I was really scared underwater was here in New York where the visability underwater is measured in inches. I was diving off this historic lighthouse and the water was black. All of a sudden something engulfed my head and started smacking me around. It knocked my mask off and almost pulled the regulator out of my mouth. It was big and I was scared. I had a thick wet suit on so I couldn't feel it's skin. I soon found out that it was a cormorant. Yes, a bird. A 4' bird. They dive to catch fish and the thing hit me and kept flapping it's wings around my head. Not something I was expecting underwater. You could see him here on the top of the lighthouse. Harold, thats him.

My picture under my name was taken in that exact spot.

What an experience! Great story.

[Paul.b]

It was probably a better experience for the bird.

[Subsea]

Paul,

I don't know that the big bird liked what it tasted. You may be the boogie man to big birds family. As a youngster living on the Gulf of Mexico with much good fishing provided by the structures of oil production platforms I experienced bountiful fishing. We often would tie off to the platform and fish on the bottom for Red Snapper and Grouper. The largest of this grouper/sea bass family was called a Jew Fish and could get as large as 1000 pounds. We came up to our favorite hot spot and shared the fishing with another sport fishing boat. As they had divers in the water we waited for them to come to the surface. When spear fishing for these Sea Bass, it was common practice to spear the large fish and turn the gun loose after inflating a large ballon. The diver on our boat came up bruised and bleeding after the fish dragged him across barnacles and pilings. A diver on the other boat came up as white as a sheet. The Jew Fish had swallowed him head first and spit him out after damaging his regulator. You divers have much grit.

 

Needless to say, we had a whooper of a fish tale to talk about.

Patrick