Pinched Mantle disease

[metrokat]

Jedi,

I kid you not, it lifted me off my feet when i pulled it from the 125 gallon. and I am well over 250 lbs. ( no fat all muscle)

I can vouch for the all muscle you gym rat!

 

Zeph, I keep thinking about you moving that clam, and I keep forgetting to ask:

HOW THE EFF DO YOU DO IT??? That thing has to weigh 250-300lbs. Do you use some sort of crane?

 

It is that very move that could have possibly caused the poor clam to deteriorate.

When I say the sick clam the first time it was perfectly healthy next to big sister

[ZephNYC]

First lets take a look at the sick Gigas on May 1, 2012. THis is at its very worst, still in the infected system.

Here is the same clam, today June 13, 2012 in the hospital tank

I am happy with the results so far, but we are far from out of the woods. My biggest concern is that the hospital tank is not an adequate environment to maintain a clam, especially one of this size, for more than a few weeks. It is a very sterile environment, with very little organics being produced. I will put some anthias in there soon.

THis clam has been dipped 3 times. Once in tap water for 30 minutes, once in RO water for 45 minutes, and once in RO water and full strength Melafix for 30 minutes. THe Melafix bath was FAR harsher. But two days later, i noticed something I never noticed with any of the other dips.

Here is a picture courtesy of James Fatherree. He explains and describes how a clam disposes of old zooxanthellae, in the process of replacing it with new cells. He says it looks like a string of white mucus and "poop"

If you look hard, you can see the white mucus along the black line, and the zoxanthellae waste in the circle.

Here is some more

It is almost impossible to get a clear shot in this tank because it is about 35 years old !! The glass is clean and the water is crystal clear, especially with all that carbon, but the glass always looks cloudy. Thats why its a hospital tank in the first place.

So all looks good!!! But Im not overly excited, because as I said, I dont like how long it is taking, and I dont know how long I should leave her in there. Also I have seen clams improve dramatically soooo many times, and than you wake up one morning and they are "inside out gone".

 

 

But now for the fun part!!! Gorgeous healthy maximas!!! Been in QT since May 20 and loooookinggg gooood!!

[ZephNYC]

I can vouch for the all muscle you gym rat!

 

 

 

It is that very move that could have possibly caused the poor clam to deteriorate.

When I say the sick clam the first time it was perfectly healthy next to big sister

 

Yes and no. It didnt CAUSE the PM, atleast i highy doubt it, but moving a sick clam was the straw that broke the camels back, if you will. I believe if it was healthy the move would not have been a problem.

[albertthiel]

wow Indeed wonder how he did that ... Zeph ... ???

 

 

 

Well I can't wait to read what you did and how you thought of what it was that you did ... but congrats that is super excellent news Zeph

 

Albert

 

Here is another interesting link on Clams and water flow, air, acclimating etc ...

 

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_4/V4I...GotTridacna.htm

 

Albert

 

 

 

I can vouch for the all muscle you gym rat!

 

 

 

It is that very move that could have possibly caused the poor clam to deteriorate.

When I say the sick clam the first time it was perfectly healthy next to big sister

 

Too long exposure to air or just exposure to air alone ... meaning clam out of the water gets stressed by getting in the open air .... not sure as some clams live on intertidal areas and do get exposed to air ... but Zeph what is your take on this

 

Albert

[ZephNYC]

Here is another interesting link on Clams and water flow, air, acclimating etc ...

 

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_4/V4I...GotTridacna.htm

 

Albert

 

 

 

 

 

Too long exposure to air or just exposure to air alone ... meaning clam out of the water gets stressed by getting in the open air .... not sure as some clams live on intertidal areas and do get exposed to air ... but Zeph what is your take on this

 

Albert

 

They do..Croceas often live in such shallow water they are fully exposed for many hours. But thats different for a huge gigas that wont close properly. BUT I have also seen pictures of farmers carrying big gigas clams around with huge mantles practically dragging in the sand. I will look for those pics later and try to post them, I have to go work on my tanks now!!

Also I know I said I would do something on bowl feeding, and I will, but people want to stick to the topic for now.

[albertthiel]

Zeph .... wow that is some progress indeed. I sure hope that the progress continues as if that is the case you may have found a solution to the die off of clams that so many have to deal with.

 

Very very nice ...

 

Thanks for sharing

 

Albert

 

 

 

They do..Croceas often live in such shallow water they are fully exposed for many hours. But thats different for a huge gigas that wont close properly. BUT I have also seen pictures of farmers carrying big gigas clams around with huge mantles practically dragging in the sand. I will look for those pics later and try to post them, I have to go work on my tanks now!!

Also I know I said I would do something on bowl feeding, and I will, but people want to stick to the topic for now.

 

True ... but you can start another topic for that no ?

 

I think exposure to air will require some separate research and I wrote it down on my to-do list which since I got on this forum is just getting longer and longer

 

Albert

[ZephNYC]

Heres a cool pic of a healthy gigas being transported for spawning. THis was taken at the Marine LAb of the Silliman University

[ZephNYC]

and here is a crocea living in very low tide, completely out of the water. A healthy clam can take a good bit of punishment.

[albertthiel]

and here is a crocea living in very low tide, completely out of the water. A healthy clam can take a good bit of punishment.

 

Both great pics and yes proof that large clams can take quite a bit more of what we call a abuse than what we may have been aware of ... Thanks for posting them ..

 

Surprising I would think to many who were not aware of this ...

 

Albert

 

 

Zeph ... am going to a LFS this morning who keeps clams for sale and am going to discuss with him what we are on about here in this thread. he is an old timer and has been around I would say for over 30 years in this hobby and runs a great store (check his web site http://www.purereef.net )

 

I'll pick his brain to see what he has to say and whether he has any input for us that we have not dealt with so far.

 

Now on moving the clams ... yes I think Wombat has a point indeed.

 

Albert

 

I called the store but he is not there until late this afternoon. If I have time I'll go otherwise tomorrow

 

Albert

[wombat]

Heres a cool pic of a healthy gigas being transported for spawning. THis was taken at the Marine LAb of the Silliman University

 

Any info on how that clam did after that photo? For all we know that was a sacrifice.

 

and here is a crocea living in very low tide, completely out of the water. A healthy clam can take a good bit of punishment.

 

I do not doubt small maximas and croceas do completely fine out of water for short periods. It is the large individuals of gigas, derasa, and squamosa that I think may be damaged by exposure to air. I have never seen these species intertidally in the wild.

[ZephNYC]

Any info on how that clam did after that photo? For all we know that was a sacrifice.

 

 

 

I do not doubt small maximas and croceas do completely fine out of water for short periods. It is the large individuals of gigas, derasa, and squamosa that I think may be damaged by exposure to air. I have never seen these species intertidally in the wild.

 

That photo is from my autographed copy of GIANT CLAMS by Daniel Knop. The caption reads as follows-

" A fully mature Tridacnid gigas is hauled aboard with difficulty -here only for research. Later the animal is brought back to where it came from".

 

You may be right, but these guys dont appear very concerned. And this is their job.

[albertthiel]

That photo is from my autographed copy of GIANT CLAMS by Daniel Knop. The caption reads as follows-

" A fully mature Tridacnid gigas is hauled aboard with difficulty -here only for research. Later the animal is brought back to where it came from".

 

You may be right, but these guys dont appear very concerned. And this is their job.

 

Great ... Like this one .... 5 inch squamosa

 

 

Seen at local dealer

 

Albert

[ZephNYC]

Great ... Like this one .... 5 inch squamosa

 

 

Seen at local dealer

 

Albert

 

Are those crickets I hear???

 

Sorry this thread has taken a back seat since the creation of "THE OFFICIAL ASK ALBERT THIEL THREAD". Im just letting nature take its course. The Big Gigas is doing better in some ways, and worse in others. It is apparent that if even possible to fully heal this puppy it is going to take months. I will do an updated picture soon.

[albertthiel]

Are those crickets I hear???

 

Sorry this thread has taken a back seat since the creation of "THE OFFICIAL ASK ALBERT THIEL THREAD". Im just letting nature take its course. The Big Gigas is doing better in some ways, and worse in others. It is apparent that if even possible to fully heal this puppy it is going to take months. I will do an updated picture soon.

 

Zeph I hope that this thread remains as active as it was and I have some info to post but it will be tomorrow as I am sending this from my iPhone

[ZephNYC]

Zeph I hope that this thread remains as active as it was and I have some info to post but it will be tomorrow as I am sending this from my iPhone

 

ALberts out on the town!! Glad to hear it!!! Get out from the computer sometime my man

[albertthiel]

ALberts out on the town!! Glad to hear it!!! Get out from the computer sometime my man

 

Indeed that is what I should do Zeph, spend too many hours on the laptop sometimes but I guessI am subscribed to too many forums so I get so may notifications that it takes hours and hours to read them all, and reply to some ... but I enjoy it so .... why not right?

 

On Clams though, I went to Pure Reef yesterday and spoke to the son of the owner, who runs the store most of the time, and here is what he told me about how they handle clams at their shop :

 

They do not put them in tanks that are part of their two main filtration systems (left and right side of the store tanks) but they put them in tanks all by their own, with their own filtration set up. When they have no clams those tanks are kept empty and nothing other than clams is ever put in them. If they expect to be without clams for a long period of time they add some enzymes to those tanks to keep the filters going.

 

He told me that when they put Clams in the tanks connected to the main system that invariably they would get diseased and therefore suspected that the main water even though it did not affect any corals or fish in the large systems, that that water must have contained some form of parasite that would attack the clams, although he did not now what type of parasite. I told him that we suspected Perkensis, but he was not aware of that as he had not really done any research on what might affect the clams.

 

They had asked their supplier (they get them from only one) and he had mentioned a parasite but he could not remember the name of it.

 

Now that brings about an interesting phenomenon : if those large systems contain Perkensis parasites, yet there are no Clams in those systems, then how do they survive ... I have not been able to determine that, but I suspect that they must go dormant and remain dormant until a host appears (clam) ...

 

How long then can they survive, as he told me that when they first observed this phenomenon sometimes the large systems had been without clams for weeks on end, as they do not have a large demand for clams at the store and so did not order them on a regular basis.

 

Since the store is not a "research center" they had no clue of course but his father decided that they would not keep clams any longer in tanks connected to the large systems (and both are real large) but keep them in separate aquariums and determine what would happen.

 

What he told me is that when they switched to that mode of handling clams, that they no longer had any issues and that their customers who had bought clams did not come back and report that their clams where whittling away and dying ... so they felt that they had to continue keeping the clams entirely separate from the fish and invertebrate systems from then on.

 

As I said that seemed to do it for them - meaning the clams remained in good health and did not show any signs of diseases, Perkensis or other.

 

Questiion: have you found any references as to whether Perkensis can go dormant, and if so for how long.

 

The other question of course is how does Perkensis marines or other get into the large systems to begin with. I would have to assume that originally they came in on clams that were infected and were able to thrive and affect clams for as long as the store was putting clams in those large systems from time to time.

 

However once they stopped doing that and once they kept keeping the clams on their own, the parasites apparently did survive as on one occasion a new worker did put two clams in a tank that was connected to one of the large systems and within a week of being in there both those clams started showing signs of being diseased ... and did not make it (the store noticing that the clams were not doing well, removed them and had to dispose of them. They did not put them in the special tanks for fear of transferring what was affecting the clams to those special tanks. Of course as the son admits, they had no idea what it was that was possibly being transferred but they did not want to take a chance.

 

So in short that leaves us with the question I stated above which is :

 

- can Perkensis parasites survive without host (we know that to be a fact)

- but how long can they survive under those conditions

 

and:

 

- if there is not host for an extended period of time will the parasites go dormant or go into whatever state allows them to attack clams once they "sense" that there is a host for them again ...

 

All food for thought and further research I guess.

 

I'll do some more looking around on the Net and in the many books I have to see whether I can find anything and if I do I will of course post it here.

 

I guess given the length of this message that you now know why I said in my previous one that I could not send it from my iPhone ... :0

 

Albert

[ZephNYC]

Indeed that is what I should do Zeph, spend too many hours on the laptop sometimes but I guessI am subscribed to too many forums so I get so may notifications that it takes hours and hours to read them all, and reply to some ... but I enjoy it so .... why not right?

 

On Clams though, I went to Pure Reef yesterday and spoke to the son of the owner, who runs the store most of the time, and here is what he told me about how they handle clams at their shop :

 

They do not put them in tanks that are part of their two main filtration systems (left and right side of the store tanks) but they put them in tanks all by their own, with their own filtration set up. When they have no clams those tanks are kept empty and nothing other than clams is ever put in them. If they expect to be without clams for a long period of time they add some enzymes to those tanks to keep the filters going.

 

He told me that when they put Clams in the tanks connected to the main system that invariably they would get diseased and therefore suspected that the main water even though it did not affect any corals or fish in the large systems, that that water must have contained some form of parasite that would attack the clams, although he did not now what type of parasite. I told him that we suspected Perkensis, but he was not aware of that as he had not really done any research on what might affect the clams.

 

They had asked their supplier (they get them from only one) and he had mentioned a parasite but he could not remember the name of it.

 

Now that brings about an interesting phenomenon : if those large systems contain Perkensis parasites, yet there are no Clams in those systems, then how do they survive ... I have not been able to determine that, but I suspect that they must go dormant and remain dormant until a host appears (clam) ...

 

How long then can they survive, as he told me that when they first observed this phenomenon sometimes the large systems had been without clams for weeks on end, as they do not have a large demand for clams at the store and so did not order them on a regular basis.

 

Since the store is not a "research center" they had no clue of course but his father decided that they would not keep clams any longer in tanks connected to the large systems (and both are real large) but keep them in separate aquariums and determine what would happen.

 

What he told me is that when they switched to that mode of handling clams, that they no longer had any issues and that their customers who had bought clams did not come back and report that their clams where whittling away and dying ... so they felt that they had to continue keeping the clams entirely separate from the fish and invertebrate systems from then on.

 

As I said that seemed to do it for them - meaning the clams remained in good health and did not show any signs of diseases, Perkensis or other.

 

Questiion: have you found any references as to whether Perkensis can go dormant, and if so for how long.

 

The other question of course is how does Perkensis marines or other get into the large systems to begin with. I would have to assume that originally they came in on clams that were infected and were able to thrive and affect clams for as long as the store was putting clams in those large systems from time to time.

 

However once they stopped doing that and once they kept keeping the clams on their own, the parasites apparently did survive as on one occasion a new worker did put two clams in a tank that was connected to one of the large systems and within a week of being in there both those clams started showing signs of being diseased ... and did not make it (the store noticing that the clams were not doing well, removed them and had to dispose of them. They did not put them in the special tanks for fear of transferring what was affecting the clams to those special tanks. Of course as the son admits, they had no idea what it was that was possibly being transferred but they did not want to take a chance.

 

So in short that leaves us with the question I stated above which is :

 

- can Perkensis parasites survive without host (we know that to be a fact)

- but how long can they survive under those conditions

 

and:

 

- if there is not host for an extended period of time will the parasites go dormant or go into whatever state allows them to attack clams once they "sense" that there is a host for them again ...

 

All food for thought and further research I guess.

 

I'll do some more looking around on the Net and in the many books I have to see whether I can find anything and if I do I will of course post it here.

 

I guess given the length of this message that you now know why I said in my previous one that I could not send it from my iPhone ... :0

 

Albert

 

Perkinsus is a very resilient pathogen, and so far we have determined that it does not need ANY host to survive. The other point we have determined is that even when you remove all the clams from your system, there may be other mollusk forms living amongst the rock work that the pathogen can host in. I currently am working with a friend on cleaning his system, after losing many clams. He has left the tank clamless for 6 months at times, only to find new additions STILL came down with PM, and fast. It APPEARS that we are left completely helpless when this beast raises its ugly Head in our tanks. Other than tearing down the entire system and letting it all dry out, we only have two weapons. Fresh water dips, which are HIGHLY controversial and will USUALLY kill a sick clam. The ONLY, and I repeat ONLY method I have seen affective IN CLEANING OUT A SYSTEM WITHOUT TEARING IT DOWN is using MASSIVE amounts of carbon and polyfilters in the practice of iron reduction. We are on to something here. I have seen it work if you do it correctly.

[albertthiel]

Perkinsus is a very resilient pathogen, and so far we have determined that it does not need ANY host to survive. The other point we have determined is that even when you remove all the clams from your system, there may be other mollusk forms living amongst the rock work that the pathogen can host in. I currently am working with a friend on cleaning his system, after losing many clams. He has left the tank clamless for 6 months at times, only to find new additions STILL came down with PM, and fast. It APPEARS that we are left completely helpless when this beast raises its ugly Head in our tanks. Other than tearing down the entire system and letting it all dry out, we only have two weapons. Fresh water dips, which are HIGHLY controversial and will USUALLY kill a sick clam. The ONLY, and I repeat ONLY method I have seen affective IN CLEANING OUT A SYSTEM WITHOUT TEARING IT DOWN is using MASSIVE amounts of carbon and polyfilters in the practice of iron reduction. We are on to something here. I have seen it work if you do it correctly.

 

Well I guess Zeph that basically validates what the store owner's son was telling me. Indeed as you say as there may to be Clams in the system there may be a lot of other small mollusks, e.g. scallops that may be infected by the parasites and keep it thriving, and OTOH as you confirm it can lay dormant for what seems just nearly forever, well not really forever maybe but certainly for a very long time

 

Thanks for the update and your confirmation that the heavy filtration method you outline is up to now the only remedy/solution that seems to be available.

 

I guess we'll have to keep digging into this topic till we find another solution maybe

 

Here is a link that gives access to a listing of lots of articles about P marinus and P atlanticus but because some are scientific papers you cannot always see all the text but at least there is some helpful info here

 

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Lifecy...ved=0CFUQgQMwAA

 

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

Zeph :

 

Very interesting article on killing/eradicating Perkensis marinus with UV

 

http://www.nrac.umd.edu/files/Factsheets/00008.pdf

 

 

and a link on the use of the pesticide ortho be gone

 

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/artic...141113607000451

 

Albert

[ZephNYC]

Zeph :

 

Very interesting article on killing/eradicating Perkensis marinus with UV

 

http://www.nrac.umd.edu/files/Factsheets/00008.pdf

 

 

and a link on the use of the pesticide ortho be gone

 

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/artic...141113607000451

 

Albert

 

Albert, this info on Ortho be gone is groundbreaking in my opinion. FINALLY something else to work with. Next time I have to dip a clam I will give it a try and report results. Sorry I am behind on your BIG thread, I will do some catching up this evening.

[albertthiel]

Albert, this info on Ortho be gone is groundbreaking in my opinion. FINALLY something else to work with. Next time I have to dip a clam I will give it a try and report results. Sorry I am behind on your BIG thread, I will do some catching up this evening.

 

Yes I agree that the article was interesting and that the use of Ortho stuff was indeed totally new ... the other one to look into is the Bayer ... All Insect Killer or something sounding like that ... Apparently Wombat uses it to dip corals etc ... in before adding them to a tank

 

Albert

[wombat]

Yes I agree that the article was interesting and that the use of Ortho stuff was indeed totally new ... the other one to look into is the Bayer ... All Insect Killer or something sounding like that ... Apparently Wombat uses it to dip corals etc ... in before adding them to a tank

 

Albert

 

I have never used anything like that to dip a coral. I dip some corals in freshwater (mostly mushrooms that might harbor Waminoa sp. flatworms) and I dip Acropora and Montipora prophylactically in Revive to rid them of any adult AEFW or Monti eating nudibranchs.

[albertthiel]

I have never used anything like that to dip a coral. I dip some corals in freshwater (mostly mushrooms that might harbor Waminoa sp. flatworms) and I dip Acropora and Montipora prophylactically in Revive to rid them of any adult AEFW or Monti eating nudibranchs.

 

Wombat I was under the impression that you used the Bayer product but with all the posts I see and read I may be mistaken.

 

What do you specifically use when dealing with Clams that are or may be infected by Perkensis marinus, or P. olseni, or P. atlanticus (which apparently recently was found to be the same parasite as P. olseni).

 

We have been going back and forth on the Clam discussion thread about what to do to eradicate P. marinus but have not found any reliable source that actually describes a method to do so.

 

If you keep large Clams at the Aquarium, have you had any issue with Pinched Mantle disease, or byssal gland disease and parasites, and if so how have you dealt with them.

 

Would appreciate your input here. Thanks

 

Albert

[wombat]

Freshwater dips, pH and temp matched.

 

We have also dealt with pyramidellid snails which are a real pain in large systems but relatively easy to deal with compared to Perkinsus.

[albertthiel]

Freshwater dips, pH and temp matched.

 

We have also dealt with pyramidellid snails which are a real pain in large systems but relatively easy to deal with compared to Perkinsus.

 

Thanks Wombat ... Zeph .... how does that compare to what you currently do ?

 

Albert

 

I have never used anything like that to dip a coral. I dip some corals in freshwater (mostly mushrooms that might harbor Waminoa sp. flatworms) and I dip Acropora and Montipora prophylactically in Revive to rid them of any adult AEFW or Monti eating nudibranchs.

 

Sorry but it is indeed not you ... I believe if I remember correctly that it may altolamprologus who uses it