Pinched Mantle disease

[patback]

Since this thread started there has been much debate concerning the theories I have discussed concerning iron and pinched mantle disease in Tridacnid clams. The skeptics have risen. They want proof. Graphs, abstracts, scientific literature etc. Yes, someone needs to do a controlled experiment with our ornamental clams. For the most part, all we have are armchair scientists like you and I, our tanks, our conversations with other clam enthusiasts, and our EXPERIMENTS. Sure there are labs for hire, and clams direct did that, but it cost tons of money and then health issues got in the way but they did GET RESULTS. AND THE RESULTS ARE IN. Ask for it and ye shall receive.

Let me first clearly say IRON DOES NOT CAUSE PINCHED MANTLE DISEASE!! If that was true clams would not exist.

 

Right before clamsdirect closed shop they were experimenting with heavy carbon use TO PREVENT THE SPREAD of the pathogen through iron reduction.

We all started hooking up massive carbon reactors and it proved very difficult to truly get all the iron out of your system. But it was working. Better for some than others but atleast we had something else to work with besides dips. For the most part, the more iron we removed the better our clams looked. Understand that few and far between were ever actually cured. But healthy clams remained unaffected or protected FOR THE MOST PART.

WHY???

IT IS VERY WELL KNOWN THAT IRON INHIBITS THE PROLIFERATION OF PERKINSUS MARINARUS. And I quote

" Our results indicate that the parasite has a strong requirement for soluble iron and its growth rates are correlated with iron availability. We propose that excess iron accumulation in the host Crassostrea virginica promotes parasite proliferation. Perkinsus marinus can avoid oxidative damage that would compromise its intracellular survival by exhaustion the host's intracellular selected iron pools required for superoxide and hydroxyl radical production. " ...

 

Lets put that in terms we can all understand -

PERKINSUS WILL DIE WITHOUT IRON!!!

Of course we are working with P. olseni, and not P.marinus, but it has proven to work IF YOU CAN TRULY GET ALL THE IRON OUT!

yes skeptics, here is the full abstract.

 

Inhibation of Perkinsus through iron reduction

 

 

So zeph, how long without iron does it take for it to die out?

[albertthiel]

Good question but based on spending about 45 minutes on the Net researching an answer to your question I cannot find an answer ... maybe Zeph has more info on this ...

 

Albert

 

 

So zeph, how long without iron does it take for it to die out?

[ZephNYC]

So zeph, how long without iron does it take for it to die out?

 

 

Hey..IF ALBERT THIEL CANT FIND IT IT IS SIMPLY NOT KNOWN !!!

Albert, you actually hit the nail right on the head even though you think you did not answer Pat's question, My answer is I don't know either. In fact nobody does. There has been so little official documentation and experimentation with PM and sick clams that we are still in the dark about the facts . We did begin lab work with the Aquatic animal health laboratory in Maine, but funds and health issues got in the way ( don't they always?). However it was very help full and confirmed many of our suspicions.

Anyway, here is my OPINION, and I repeat OPINION because I don't have any graphs, charts, abstracts or factual conclusions to show you concerning recovery rates of clams or for the die off rate of Perkinsus. Nobody does.

To Pat's question,...

So test you iron. Make sure its zero. Get a REAL IRON TEST, like LaMot. Iron is very hard to remove through media, and this is such a rudimentary method /attempt to eliminate a pathogen in the first place, that you really have to get it PERFECT. Even the slightest trace of iron will simply fortify the pathogen. The good thing is most common salt mix's out there are low in iron in the first place. Understand this is not a medication or method of immediate response. We are talking about biologically starving a pathogen in an attemp to simply decrease its strength in the hopes of eventually eliminating it. It does sound a little far fetched, I know. But it works. Now the only thing I don't have and wish I did, is a microscopic view of a "cleaned mantle". And trust me, this is my next investment. Proof of sick clam..dipp..dipp..proof of clean clam. No arguments.

What was the question again?? oh, How long does it take ? Well....if you removed ALL your clams, you system will be clean in 3 months for sure, and you wouldn't even have to worry about removing iron . A pathogen cant live without a host. This is the only way to really be sure. If you leave clams in there you will never really know if its gone or not. You will certainly be able to CONTROL it with iron reduction/elimination, So after quarantining any new clams you can put them in the questionable system and they will be somewhat protected. So If I did all my dipps I would say 3 months MINIMUM of heavy carbon/chemi pure before I even thought about adding a new clam. But dont be in a hurry, the longer the better. Ive had pm kill 47 clams, stay dormant for 3 years, and than kill 5 more. BUT I WAS NOT RUNNING CARBON/CHEMIPUREEEEEEE!!

[albertthiel]

You are right that the exact timing is not so much a matter of how long does it take but IMHO more a matter of how can we remove it so any parasite of the clams can no longer uptake it for growth and reproduction. I am still looking for what else can be done as I seem to remember that there is a way to turn dissolved iron which they can uptake into a form they cannot uptake based on the following formulas :

4 Fe2+ 3 O2 --> 2 Fe2O3

Fe2O3 + 3 H2O --> 2Fe(OH)3 (iron hydroxide) which precipitates out of the water ... now the problem is that I know that this works in freshwater and at a certain pH and ORP but I have not been able to establish whether this can be done in saltwater yet.

If we could achieve that we may be able to test whether the clams survive after the iron has been precipitated. I would say right now that it may not be possible to do so in SW but I am not sure yet.

OTOH your points below are IMHO correct and as long as iron remains in a tank it does not matter how long you take the clams out, once you put them back, and the iron is there, the parasites will start to attack the clam again and kill it off as they basically feed on their zooxanthellae (that's why the white spots occur) and without a sufficient amount of Zoox. the mantle starts to shows the signs that you have described and eventually as a result of the pinched mantle the clam dies ... Anyway ... look into the precipitating soluble iron into iron hydroxide in saltwater and let's see if there is a way to do so ... that may get us a step further or alternatively confirm that there really is nothing we can do once the parasites are there.

 

 

 

 

Read more: http://www.lenntech.com/processes/iron-man...m#ixzz1xLMMSZ00

 

Hey..IF ALBERT THIEL CANT FIND IT IT IS SIMPLY NOT KNOWN !!!

Albert, you actually hit the nail right on the head even though you think you did not answer Pat's question, My answer is I don't know either. In fact nobody does. There has been so little official documentation and experimentation with PM and sick clams that we are still in the dark about the facts . We did begin lab work with the Aquatic animal health laboratory in Maine, but funds and health issues got in the way ( don't they always?). However it was very help full and confirmed many of our suspicions.

Anyway, here is my OPINION, and I repeat OPINION because I don't have any graphs, charts, abstracts or factual conclusions to show you concerning recovery rates of clams or for the die off rate of Perkinsus .Nobody does.

To Pat's question,...

So test you iron..make sure its zero. Get a REAL IRON TEST, like LaMot..Iron is very hard to remove through media, and this is such a rudimentary method /attempt to eliminate a pathogen in the first place, that you really have to get it PERFECT. Even the slightest trace of iron will simply fortify the pathogen. The good thing is most common salt mix's out there is low in iron in the first place. Understand this is not a medication or method of immediate response. We are talking about biologically starving a pathogen in an at temp to simply decrease its strength in the hopes of eventually eliminating it. It does sound a little far fetched, I know. But it works. Now the only thing I don't have and wish I did, is a microscopic view of a "cleaned mantle". And trust me, this is my next investment. Proof of sick clam..dipp..dipp..proof of clean clam. No arguments.

What was the question again?? oh,How long does it take ? Well....if you removed ALL your clams, you system will be clean in 3 months for sure, and you wouldn't even have to worry about removing iron .A pathogen cant live without a host.This is the only way to really be sure. If you leave clams in there you will never really know if its gone or not. You will certainly be able to CONTROL it with iron reduction/elimination, So after quarantining any new clams you can put them in the questionable system and they will be somewhat protected. So If I did all my dipps I would say 3 months MINIMUM of heavy carbon/chemi pure before I even thought about adding a new clam. But dont be in a hurry, the longer the better. Ive had pm kill 47 clams, stay dormant for 3 years, and than kill 5 more. BUT I WAS NOT RUNNING CARBON/CHEMIPUREEEEEEE!!

[wombat]

Uh, guys, you know what else needs iron to live? Giant clams, and well, all known living organisms!

 

Well....if you removed ALL your clams, you system will be clean in 3 months for sure, and you wouldn't even have to worry about removing iron .A pathogen cant live without a host.

 

Unless you have oysters or other vectors in the live rock in the tank...anyway, how do we know that this pathogen is obligate? There are plenty of pathogens that can live without a host...Uronema, Mycobacterium, the list goes on and on.

 

Tests exist that you case use to determine whether water flowing out of a skimmer into which ozone is injected at the same time as the air, that allow one to determine whether any residual ozone is still present. The water tested will turn slightly yellowish if any ozone is still present ... I cannot remember the brand as I have not use the test in a long long time but I can assure you that it exists ..

 

Albert

 

Hi Albert, I think you may be referring to a DPD test.

 

http://www.hach.com/cms/documents/pdf/LIT/...ineAnalysis.pdf

 

This is not actually measuring ozone but its residual oxidants, mostly bromine compounds. These are the toxic derivatives that actually do the damage in marine systems when ozone is overdosed.

[ZephNYC]

Uh, guys, you know what else needs iron to live? Giant clams, and well, all known living organisms!

 

 

 

Unless you have oysters or other vectors in the live rock in the tank...anyway, how do we know that this pathogen is obligate? There are plenty of pathogens that can live without a host...Uronema, Mycobacterium, the list goes on and on.

 

 

 

Of course. They can get iron from food too.. and I do like to feed my clams. Not everyone does - another topic of great debate. Now you will tell me I am adding iron to my system through phyto, and youre right.

And most parasites/pathogens we encounter in our aquariums are host specific. ie. Ich can not live without fish.

[wombat]

And most parasites/pathogens we encounter in our aquariums are host specific. ie. Ich can not live without fish.

 

Well, I don't know if it is true that most pathogens are host specific, or obligate. Certainly all of them aren't.

 

What I can find on the subject says Perkinsus is a facultative, not obligate parasite.

 

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari...-8&oe=UTF-8

[ZephNYC]

Well, I don't know if it is true that most pathogens are host specific, or obligate. Certainly all of them aren't.

 

What I can find on the subject says Perkinsus is a facultative, not obligate parasite.

 

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari...-8&oe=UTF-8

 

I did not say most pathogens are host specific. I said "most parasites/ pathogens WE ENCOUNTER IN OUR AQUARIUMS are host specific ". That is a major difference.

Sure, and here is another study saying " It is a faculative pathogen of MOLLUSKS." Im pretty sure that means it is only found in mollusks. Can you show me another life form that has ever carried perkinsus?

 

perkinsus faculative in mollusks

[wombat]

Sure, and here is another study saying " It is a faculative pathogen of MOLLUSKS." Im pretty sure that means it is only found in mollusks. Can you show me another life form that has ever carried perkinsus?

 

perkinsus faculative in mollusks

 

Well, that isn't what it means, but anyway, why would I need to? If it can infect molluscs, that includes snails, oysters, chitons...virtually every reef tank has these in abundance in and on the rocks, even if you remove all the clams.

 

Anyway, do you understand what "facultative" means? That means it does not require a host to survive and reproduce.

[ZephNYC]

Well, that isn't what it means, but anyway, why would I need to? If it can infect molluscs, that includes snails, oysters, chitons...virtually every reef tank has these in abundance in and on the rocks, even if you remove all the clams.

 

Anyway, do you understand what "facultative" means? That means it does not require a host to survive and reproduce.

 

 

Without looking it up, I understand faculative organisms as being able to adapt to various conditions ie. aerobic/ anaerobic. But than again, I'm not as smart as you. However, We do agree that it only INFECTS mollusks. I see what you are saying, that it does not require ANY host at all to survive. I do not know this to be true of whatever causes pinched mantle disease. It has clearly been said that there are UNIDENTIFIED pathogens involved. I have personally seen too many tanks get cleaned from methods I have described. I can pretty much promise you that if you leave your tanks clam less for 3 months the pathogen will subside. especially if you practice iron reduction. Perhaps the reason for varying results are in the other mollusk forms in your reef tanks carrying the pathogen -snails, chitons..etc...this is why the iron reduction is so important.

Wait, I believe you dispute that as well. Go figure

[patback]

So with the theory of removing all the iron from the water killing off the pathogens, could it be feasible you think through extended fw dips using pure rodi instead of the tap as recommended earlier? I know nothing on the subject, but it dips have cured clams in the past, maybe dipping in iron free water could work faster?

 

Maybe some one may in the future make an iron free salt mix to just for clam quarantine tanks? I know as it was said above that clams require iron, but maybe there is a sweet spot. For example : lets say a clam can live for 4 days with NO iron for a week, but the pathogen dies using this method f

After 3 days? Again, I'm just throwing an idea out there as I have no knowledge whatsoever of this.

[chrssprngs]

You are right that the exact timing is not so much a matter of how long does it take but IMHO more a matter of how can we remove it so any parasite of the clams can no longer uptake it for growth and reproduction. I am still looking for what else can be done as I seem to remember that there is a way to turn dissolved iron which they can uptake into a form they cannot uptake based on the following formulas :

4 Fe2+ 3 O2 --> 2 Fe2O3

Fe2O3 + 3 H2O --> 2Fe(OH)3 (iron hydroxide) which precipitates out of the water ... now the problem is that I know that this works in freshwater and at a certain pH and ORP but I have not been able to establish whether this can be done in saltwater yet.

If we could achieve that we may be able to test whether the clams survive after the iron has been precipitated. I would say right now that it may not be possible to do so in SW but I am not sure yet.

OTOH your points below are IMHO correct and as long as iron remains in a tank it does not matter how long you take the clams out, once you put them back, and the iron is there, the parasites will start to attack the clam again and kill it off as they basically feed on their zooxanthellae (that's why the white spots occur) and without a sufficient amount of Zoox. the mantle starts to shows the signs that you have described and eventually as a result of the pinched mantle the clam dies ... Anyway ... look into the precipitating soluble iron into iron hydroxide in saltwater and let's see if there is a way to do so ... that may get us a step further or alternatively confirm that there really is nothing we can do once the parasites are there.

 

 

 

 

Read more: http://www.lenntech.com/processes/iron-man...m#ixzz1xLMMSZ00

 

 

Is this similar to the process municple water treatment facilities incorporate to precipitate iron? I think they use polymers.

[ZephNYC]

So with the theory of removing all the iron from the water killing off the pathogens, could it be feasible you think through extended fw dips using pure rodi instead of the tap as recommended earlier? I know nothing on the subject, but it dips have cured clams in the past, maybe dipping in iron free water could work faster?

 

Maybe some one may in the future make an iron free salt mix to just for clam quarantine tanks? I know as it was said above that clams require iron, but maybe there is a sweet spot. For example : lets say a clam can live for 4 days with NO iron for a week, but the pathogen dies using this method f

After 3 days? Again, I'm just throwing an idea out there as I have no knowledge whatsoever of this.

 

I would LOVE an iron free salt mix. I think of that every time i reach for my Iron free multi vitamin. We are seriously considering an attempt to market products specifically for clams. This is an area of the market that has not been covered well, if at all yet. A pinched mantle cure, iron free salt, food mixes specifically for clams, etc.

Yes, lately I have been dipping clams in 100% RO water. Im going to dip a gigas for one full hour in pure RO water late tonight before the lights go out.

It would take a really long time foor a clam to perish from a lack of iron. I have not spoke yet about feeding methods for clams, but it is another huge topic, and one more people will probably appreciate. Lots of "experts " say you dont need to feed clams. I agree with this in average situations, but i also KNOW that in certain situations you DO. This is one of them. I will be talking alot about clam feeding in the near future.

[ZephNYC]

Is this similar to the process municple water treatment facilities incorporate to precipitate iron? I think they use polymers.

Not what you are talking about, I understand. But a little insight into a waste plant and carbon. The transition of Fe (2) to Fe(3) is an interesting topic I have only touched the surface on. With Alberts help maybe we can gain a better understanding and if it is even possible,

 

 

Jeff's Carbon Challenge

by "Roger S. Miller" <rgrmill/rt66.com>

Date: Fri, 27 M.ar 1998

To: Aquatic-Plants/actwin.com

> Hello all,

 

 

Several years ago I did some work on the remarkable waste reuse plant at

El Paso, Texas, where they treat municipal waste from part of the city to

drinking water standards and inject the treated waste into the ground for

storage and later (years later) use.

 

That plant uses a multi-step system where, in a two-stage sequence,

powdered activated carbon (PAC) was used in dense suspensions with

clarified waste water. It also uses a granular activated carbon (GAC)

filter as the last stage of processing. The PAC acts primarily as a

foundation to support a very high bacterial population and probably also

serves to attach organic compounds and accelerate their breakdown by the

bacteria. The PAC supply is continuously cycled from the reactor to a

regeneration facility that processes it at 400 degrees F and 800 psi -

really, not very much like filling a canister with chunks of carbon and

running water through it for weeks or months without replacement.

 

In that design, the PAC was intended as the primary treatment for color,

taste, odor, organic nitrogen (through nitrification and denitrification)

and three inorganics: hexavalent chromium, metalic mercury and selenium.

 

The plant's operations are monitored so that we can tell how each stage of

the process effects different important pollutants. I have some of the

early monitoring data. The PAC process is very effective at removing

chloroform, carbon disulfide, mercury, and phenols. It also lowers the

concentrations of copper, lead, zinc and strontium, but in each of these

cases, the PAC provided only a secondary effect. The PAC had no effect on

xylene, toluene (which was pulled out before it reached the PAC) or

vanadium. The primary effect on dissolved phosphorus and metals was from

lime treatment following the PAC stages.

 

The GAC filter (more-or-less like the activated carbon filters we're

more familiar with) was at the end of the process and only had a

measurable effect on zinc, and I think that might have been a fluke.

 

I don't know if EDTA chelates would be effected by activated carbon or

not. My experience using chelated iron in tanks with activated carbon

suggests that it isn't adsorbed by the carbon.

 

>From this info and my past experience I think that very clean, fresh

activated carbon might attach some important plant nutrients, and that

characteristic might even last for a few days after its initial use. But

under most common conditions it probably will not have a significant

effect. It does attach organic molecules that cause color and odor and it

does serve as a very good base for biological filtration. The bacteria,

in fact, can feed off the attached organic molecules and keep the carbon

in a partially active state for extended periods of time.

 

>

> So does anyone have any ideas here or sights I can go to to read more? As

> usual one reference says it removes copper and the other says no:)

>

 

Activated carbon is commonly used for water treatment at both ends of

municipal and industrial water systems. Environmental engineering

journals at your local library probably would be your best source of

information.

 

 

Roger Miller

[chrssprngs]

I was referring to treatment of water supply facility. Not waste water treatment.

[albertthiel]

Yes, it is obviously a known fact that all living organisms large and small need some iron and need to be able to uptake iron dissolved in the water mass of the aquarium, and iron will be there for sure as it leaches into the water from rocks and other types of scaping and substrate materials we all use.

 

So I do fully agree with you but I think we need to keep the reason for the Clam thread separate from threads that include the requirements of all other livestock.

 

What I feel we are trying to determine in the Clam thread is whether the removal of soluble iron from the water will kill off or greatly diminish the parasitic organisms that are being referred to in the Clam thread.

 

Ideally the research would be done in a tank that has only Clams in it and no other lifeforms so it can possibly be established that tanks with very low or hardly any soluble iron will improve the condition of the Clams and reduce the incidence of Mantle disease and the resulting dying off of the Clams.

 

When Clams are in a "general" aquarium that contains a lot of other types of live forms iron is needed and precipitating soluble iron into say its hydroxide form may benefit the Clams but may indeed harm the other live stock.

 

This is a touchy topic and my suggestion is that we try to stay on the track where we deal with this only for tanks that contain clams and nothing else so we can get some data.

 

Note that besides iron there are many minerals in tanks (e.g. manganese) and it is not quite well established what the manganese requirements of live stock are and what levels are safe and what levels are not.

 

Copper is also present and that would be the subject for an entirely different thread IMO. Copper is toxic of course but minimal amounts are needed too, just as we need strontium, magnesium, calcium and other types of materials that are dissolved in the water (at low to medium to higher amounts depending on which one we are referring to).

 

So this is not an easy thread unfortunately .... but as I suggested if we keep it to just Clam aquariums the research can continue and maybe we'll eventually come up with some valuable info. How to then combine that with what is needed in full fledged reefs is another topic again ...

 

Thanks for the reference to the article ... that one deals mostly with chlorine and its by-products though and IMO does not seem to have a lot of impact on the discussion about ozone ... although chlorine is obviously another oxidizer and although I have not heard of anyone using chlorine injection in tanks to purify the water, it is something that may bear further investigation if anyone is interested in doing so (but again that would be another thread in a different forum (I guess water quality or whatever it is called).

 

So do I disagree with you: no I do not but the remarks above are meant to focus the discussion on what about ozone on one hand, and on what about soluble iron in tanks on the other.

 

Hope I have not confused the issue ... let's continue this thread on Pinched Mantle disease and not involve any other parameters as if we do, I think we'll start turning in circles and not get anywhere with the main topic.

 

FWIW

 

Albert

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Uh, guys, you know what else needs iron to live? Giant clams, and well, all known living organisms!

 

 

 

Unless you have oysters or other vectors in the live rock in the tank...anyway, how do we know that this pathogen is obligate? There are plenty of pathogens that can live without a host...Uronema, Mycobacterium, the list goes on and on.

 

 

 

Hi Albert, I think you may be referring to a DPD test.

 

http://www.hach.com/cms/documents/pdf/LIT/...ineAnalysis.pdf

 

This is not actually measuring ozone but its residual oxidants, mostly bromine compounds. These are the toxic derivatives that actually do the damage in marine systems when ozone is overdosed.

[albertthiel]

The incidence of damage done by the parasites that were referred to is not just limited to Clams. Research on the Net quickly comes up with articles that involves Clams, Oysters and other mollusks that seem to be affected equally negatively (in fact I seem to remember that whole oyster beds were wiped out a few years ago and that it took years to recoup from that disaster if I can label it that way - and I think it was so bad that I indeed can.

 

Again to make progress we need to define what we are posting about or we will get lost and side tracked in discussions that have nothing to do directly with Mantle disease.

 

Here is a good link that discusses Mantle disease in clams by James Fatherree M. Sc.

 

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/jf/index.php

 

Pyramidellid Snails are also a threat to Clams too and so are small rice grain size parasitic flagellates that attack the Clam from the lower aras (byssal gland) and will also result in the demise of the clams.

 

So iron is not the only problematic topic we are dealing with but again we need to keep the causes of the loss of clams apart or we'll start turning around in circles with hobbyists who follow this and post posting about different reasons for the loss of clams and the thread will get very difficult to follow ... What I suggest is that other threads be added that discuss anything besides the iron issue.

 

There is plenty more information out there that describes the problems with Clams and lists causes and reasons "but" unfortunately little that I have found that actually gives the steps to take to prevent the die off of the Clams.

 

Hope I did not confuse you ..

 

Albert

 

 

Uh, guys, you know what else needs iron to live? Giant clams, and well, all known living organisms!

 

 

 

Unless you have oysters or other vectors in the live rock in the tank...anyway, how do we know that this pathogen is obligate? There are plenty of pathogens that can live without a host...Uronema, Mycobacterium, the list goes on and on.

 

 

 

Hi Albert, I think you may be referring to a DPD test.

 

http://www.hach.com/cms/documents/pdf/LIT/...ineAnalysis.pdf

 

This is not actually measuring ozone but its residual oxidants, mostly bromine compounds. These are the toxic derivatives that actually do the damage in marine systems when ozone is overdosed.

[albertthiel]

Understood ...

 

Albert

 

I was referring to treatment of water supply facility. Not waste water treatment.

[albertthiel]

Thanks for your contribution but treatment of raw water is in most cases freshwater and not saltwater ... however the information may be applicable to some extent IMO to our case but not necessarily offer solutions.

 

So what does GAC remove? Lots of articles on the net on that topic. Here is one that has a good section on what GAC can remove:

 

http://www.home-water-purifiers-and-filter...ater-filter.php

 

Albert

 

 

 

Not what you are talking about, I understand. But a little insight into a waste plant and carbon. The transition of Fe (2) to Fe(3) is an interesting topic I have only touched the surface on. With Alberts help maybe we can gain a better understanding and if it is even possible,

 

 

Jeff's Carbon Challenge

by "Roger S. Miller" <rgrmill/rt66.com>

Date: Fri, 27 M.ar 1998

To: Aquatic-Plants/actwin.com

> Hello all,

 

 

Several years ago I did some work on the remarkable waste reuse plant at

El Paso, Texas, where they treat municipal waste from part of the city to

drinking water standards and inject the treated waste into the ground for

storage and later (years later) use.

 

That plant uses a multi-step system where, in a two-stage sequence,

powdered activated carbon (PAC) was used in dense suspensions with

clarified waste water. It also uses a granular activated carbon (GAC)

filter as the last stage of processing. The PAC acts primarily as a

foundation to support a very high bacterial population and probably also

serves to attach organic compounds and accelerate their breakdown by the

bacteria. The PAC supply is continuously cycled from the reactor to a

regeneration facility that processes it at 400 degrees F and 800 psi -

really, not very much like filling a canister with chunks of carbon and

running water through it for weeks or months without replacement.

 

In that design, the PAC was intended as the primary treatment for color,

taste, odor, organic nitrogen (through nitrification and denitrification)

and three inorganics: hexavalent chromium, metalic mercury and selenium.

 

The plant's operations are monitored so that we can tell how each stage of

the process effects different important pollutants. I have some of the

early monitoring data. The PAC process is very effective at removing

chloroform, carbon disulfide, mercury, and phenols. It also lowers the

concentrations of copper, lead, zinc and strontium, but in each of these

cases, the PAC provided only a secondary effect. The PAC had no effect on

xylene, toluene (which was pulled out before it reached the PAC) or

vanadium. The primary effect on dissolved phosphorus and metals was from

lime treatment following the PAC stages.

 

The GAC filter (more-or-less like the activated carbon filters we're

more familiar with) was at the end of the process and only had a

measurable effect on zinc, and I think that might have been a fluke.

 

I don't know if EDTA chelates would be effected by activated carbon or

not. My experience using chelated iron in tanks with activated carbon

suggests that it isn't adsorbed by the carbon.

 

>From this info and my past experience I think that very clean, fresh

activated carbon might attach some important plant nutrients, and that

characteristic might even last for a few days after its initial use. But

under most common conditions it probably will not have a significant

effect. It does attach organic molecules that cause color and odor and it

does serve as a very good base for biological filtration. The bacteria,

in fact, can feed off the attached organic molecules and keep the carbon

in a partially active state for extended periods of time.

 

>

> So does anyone have any ideas here or sights I can go to to read more? As

> usual one reference says it removes copper and the other says no:)

>

 

Activated carbon is commonly used for water treatment at both ends of

municipal and industrial water systems. Environmental engineering

journals at your local library probably would be your best source of

information.

 

 

Roger Miller

[albertthiel]

According to the reading I have done Perkensis is an obligate one and if no iron is present they will eventually all did off - no food no pathogens - but the question remains do they go dormant or just die off and I have not been able to find anything definitive on that subject.

 

At least not yet

 

Albert

 

I did not say most pathogens are host specific. I said "most parasites/ pathogens WE ENCOUNTER IN OUR AQUARIUMS are host specific ". That is a major difference.

Sure, and here is another study saying " It is a faculative pathogen of MOLLUSKS." Im pretty sure that means it is only found in mollusks. Can you show me another life form that has ever carried perkinsus?

 

perkinsus faculative in mollusks

 

 

To my knowledge chelation methods are also used in those treatments and chelated iron using EDTA is water soluble so that would not help us in removing it ..

 

Albert

 

 

I was referring to treatment of water supply facility. Not waste water treatment.

[ZephNYC]

According to the reading I have done Perkensis is an obligate one and if no iron is present they will eventually all did off - no food no pathogens - but the question remains do they go dormant or just die off and I have not been able to find anything definitive on that subject.

 

At least not yet

 

Albert

 

 

 

The great Albert Thiel has spoken. I am SO glad you are here Albert. It is EXTREMELY refreshing to have an AUTHORITY around.

THank you again sir.

[wombat]

Thanks for the reference to the article ... that one deals mostly with chlorine and its by-products though and IMO does not seem to have a lot of impact on the discussion about ozone ... although chlorine is obviously another oxidizer and although I have not heard of anyone using chlorine injection in tanks to purify the water, it is something that may bear further investigation if anyone is interested in doing so (but again that would be another thread in a different forum (I guess water quality or whatever it is called).

 

So do I disagree with you: no I do not but the remarks above are meant to focus the discussion on what about ozone on one hand, and on what about soluble iron in tanks on the other.

 

Hope I have not confused the issue ... let's continue this thread on Pinched Mantle disease and not involve any other parameters as if we do, I think we'll start turning in circles and not get anywhere with the main topic.

 

FWIW

 

Albert

 

Hi Albert, the DPD test is used to determine the concentration of byproducts of ozone. Ozone itself is not what damages corals and invertebrates in seawater systems. Its half-life is too short to do such a thing. But, an overdose of ozone can create persistent oxidizing compounds like chlorine, bromine, bromate, and hypobromous acid. These are what do damage, and the sum of these oxidizing compounds can be measured with a DPD test intended to detect chlorine.

 

Please see "Determination of Applied Ozone Dose and the Use of Ozone Controllers" by Aiken and Smith for more information.

[wombat]

According to the reading I have done Perkensis is an obligate one

 

Can you provide us with the references that say this?

 

The great Albert Thiel has spoken. I am SO glad you are here Albert. It is EXTREMELY refreshing to have an AUTHORITY around.

THank you again sir.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

[ZephNYC]

Can you provide us with the references that say this?

 

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

 

 

i think Albert got a little confused here. I do agree Perkinsus is faculaitive.

"The protozoan parasite Perkinsus marinus is a facultative intracellular parasite of mollusks, and the causative agent of "dermo" disease in both wild and farmed Eastern oyster (Crassostrea virginica) .

 

Here is a very good source of information.

perkinsus link

[albertthiel]

Thanks Zeph and all others who read this ... I am still looking around for what I can find but it is getting more and more time consuming and not too many articles that apply to what we are trying to figure out can be found, which confirms what you posted a while ago and that is that little is still known and that a lot of research is still needed .. but let's not give up

 

Albert

 

 

 

Can you provide us with the references that say this?

 

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority