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Pinched Mantle disease


ZephNYC

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albertthiel

Since it goes through several life cycles from free to ingested for instance we are probably both right and depending on what section is read of the article you listed (which I actually listed earlier I think, the facultative and obligate stages will apply IMO ... This is such a difficult topic to cover since so little in depth research exists that is conclusive, it is hard to say who is right and who is not. We are both reporting what we read but I relied on more than just one article and my interpretation of what I read was that once ingested it is obligate and in its free form it could be either ... but that is just my interpretation of very high level articles where it is easy to overlook some of the details .. so as I said I will keep looking for more info and see whether I can find anything that really gives us more definitive information rather than "it is thought" and "this may indicate" etc ... none of which are definitive statements.

 

Albert

 

 

i think Albert got a little confused here. I do agree Perkinsus is faculaitive.

"The protozoan parasite Perkinsus marinus is a facultative intracellular parasite of mollusks, and the causative agent of "dermo" disease in both wild and farmed Eastern oyster (Crassostrea virginica) .

 

Here is a very good source of information.

perkinsus link

 

 

Thanks for the compliment :) but I am no expert on Large Clams as I stated before. Just trying to find some more answers just as Zeph is doing ... On Authority ... it is well known that so-called Authorities often disagree ... :) and since we are all really just hobbyists disagreement will prevail even more I think :)

 

 

Can you provide us with the references that say this?

 

 

 

:rolleyes:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

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albertthiel

Thanks for the clarification on your viewpoint that I do not disagree with but we may have been on different wavelengths in the references made to ozone and its effects ... after effects which you refer to are yet another matter indeed and I agree that the damaging effects of those can be just as bad or even worse than excess ozone getting into a tank (which was my point).

 

If you want to try it out :) just inject ozone directly in the tank and see what happens :) Sometimes the issue with threads on forums is that too keep them short one does not cover enough of the details which then leads to messages pointing out other issues as you did ... and with which I agree !

 

Albert

 

 

 

Hi Albert, the DPD test is used to determine the concentration of byproducts of ozone. Ozone itself is not what damages corals and invertebrates in seawater systems. Its half-life is too short to do such a thing. But, an overdose of ozone can create persistent oxidizing compounds like chlorine, bromine, bromate, and hypobromous acid. These are what do damage, and the sum of these oxidizing compounds can be measured with a DPD test intended to detect chlorine.

 

Please see "Determination of Applied Ozone Dose and the Use of Ozone Controllers" by Aiken and Smith for more information.

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albertthiel

Thanks and I enjoy reading viewpoints that others on NR and elsewhere have as one can always learn ...

 

I appreciate your contributions and pointing out additional information for those who follow the thread.

 

Albert

 

 

Thanks Albert. Sorry to drag this too far off topic. It is good to see you posting here.
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I received this letter from a NR member, concerning the tank of a his friend. With the owners permission I have posted his situation. It is a perfect example of Pinched mantle syndrome, and the frustration it will continue to cause. We are going to attempt to resolve his problem through the methods already described. Leaving the tank clam less for 3 months minimum and heavy carbon/chemipure/polyfilter to remove as much iron as possible. All snails and obvious mollusks will be removed. I am confident we can clean this system and fill it up with gorgeous healthy clams that will live happily ever after. I will update the exact steps we take as we incorporate them into the system.

Here is his letter:

 

 

I have always been able to keep clams. In fact I had several for 4 or more years. I rescued some Tahitian maxima from a friend, the ones with the huge shells. He wanted to get them out of his system because one of them wasn’t doing well. Well they all ended up dying and taking all of mine with them. These consisted of Maximas and Squamosa and a Derasa. Since this time I have waited two years, basically trying to put a clam in every 6 months and they still die.

 

The pattern seems to be they do fine for a month then start to deteriorate. Finally dying of what looks like a form of pinched mantle. (see picture) I have also taken a couple apart and noticed what I would describe as tiny red worms. They live inside of the shell on the inside of the clam. They also were but sticking out of the shell so they would have had access to the meat of the clam. I waited 6 more months and added a very health Squamosa which just dies today. Help!!

 

 

Here is the picture of his clam which just died today 6/11/12. This was a less than a day before it was dead as dead can be.

newpm1.jpg

newpm2.jpg

 

In case you are curious about his abilities as an aquarist, this is a pic of his tank. He obviously takes care of all his parameters and feeding etc. This is more than a case of a parameter being off.

 

It's a 150g/~500g system total.

newpm3.jpg

 

You can see the clam which just died in this pic from a couple weeks ago when it seemed ok.

 

Hope you can help or know who can cause this is crazy.

 

Thanks

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albertthiel

Zeph covered the causes of Pinched Mantle disease pretty well in previous posts and obviously what this hobbyist is experiencing is another example of how little is really know of the real causes and how to find out what needs to be done to prevent the recurrence of it even in different aquariums.

 

Moving a clam from one tank to another one may show some improvement in the condition for a while but again as Zeph has pointed out eventually the clam dies anyway.

 

Whereas one of the causes has been identified and whereas no one seems to know how to deal with it once and for all, there are also other reasons why Clams do not "make" it and I referred to the parasitic snails and other parasites that attach the clam from the base in the region of the byssal gland ... now when you get both Perkinsis and additional parasitic attacks then any Clam is going to have a tough time surviving for any length of time.

 

Given that Clams are threatened in some areas it is a bit of a mystery to me that not more research has been done and that solutions have been suggested that actually work and save Clams.

 

I see lots of references to fresh water dips and although IMO that can help, it seems that such dips are only temporary solutions as the main causes that are present in the aquarium have not been eliminated and soon cause the Clam to show signs again of P. Mantle or other diseases.

 

The key remains therefore how can we get rid of whatever parasites (and their may be far more than we are aware of) are present in the aquarium and what does it take to keep them out of the tank even after Clams have been removed and after the water has been treated in a number of ways.

 

Am I offering a solution here? Of course not as no one seems to know yet what needs to be done and experimenting with various techniques can be a very expensive proposition that Hobbyists either cannot afford or are not willing to undertake.

 

I think we need to find someone who is considered a real expert on the matter (actually more than one) and get feedback from them and see whether we can make progress using their input.

 

For now all I can say is that we have not really determined the real cause or causes although we do know of some parasites that bring the demise of the Clams along, but we have not made progress in finding out why those parasites show up in the tanks, which ones may be involved besides Perkensis marines and other similar species, parasites that attach the byssal gland, and what we can do to prevent that from happening.

 

Research in why they appear (other than being present on clams already) and what other parasites may be involved is IMHO the direction we should try to go ... FWIW as so little is known that I feel we are not closer yet to finding the cure.

 

Albert

 

 

 

 

I received this letter from a NR member, concerning the tank of a his friend. With the owners permission I have posted his situation. It is a perfect example of Pinched mantle syndrome, and the frustration it will continue to cause. We are going to attempt to resolve his problem through the methods already described. Leaving the tank clam less for 3 months minimum and heavy carbon/chemipure/polyfilter to remove as much iron as possible. All snails and obvious mollusks will be removed. I am confident we can clean this system and fill it up with gorgeous healthy clams that will live happily ever after. I will update the exact steps we take as we incorporate them into the system.

Here is his letter:

 

 

I have always been able to keep clams. In fact I had several for 4 or more years. I rescued some Tahitian maxima from a friend, the ones with the huge shells. He wanted to get them out of his system because one of them wasn’t doing well. Well they all ended up dying and taking all of mine with them. These consisted of Maximas and Squamosa and a Derasa. Since this time I have waited two years, basically trying to put a clam in every 6 months and they still die.

 

The pattern seems to be they do fine for a month then start to deteriorate. Finally dying of what looks like a form of pinched mantle. (see picture) I have also taken a couple apart and noticed what I would describe as tiny red worms. They live inside of the shell on the inside of the clam. They also were but sticking out of the shell so they would have had access to the meat of the clam. I waited 6 more months and added a very health Squamosa which just dies today. Help!!

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albertthiel

Below is a link to Perkinsus marinus

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perkinsus_marinus

 

It deals mainly with its effect on oysters and other mollusks but the information is applicable to clams as well. There are also several links on the right side to other varieties os Perkinsus species that I am going to have a look at later today when I have the time to do so.

 

Thanks Albert. Sorry to drag this too far off topic. It is good to see you posting here.

 

 

A link to a discussion on it on Manhattan reefs that seems to indicate that freshwater dips are only a short term palliative and do not solve the problem

 

http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum/genera...hed-mantle.html

 

Albert

 

Interestingly the Wikipedia page I went to lists several other species of Perkensis parasites but none of them leads to any information ...

 

Perkinsus beihaiensis

Perkinsus chesapeaki

Perkinsus honshuensis

Perkinsus marinus

Perkinsus mediterraneus

Perkinsus olseni

 

Albert

 

Below is a link to Perkinsus marinus

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perkinsus_marinus

 

It deals mainly with its effect on oysters and other mollusks but the information is applicable to clams as well. There are also several links on the right side to other varieties os Perkinsus species that I am going to have a look at later today when I have the time to do so.

 

 

 

 

A link to a discussion on it on Manhattan reefs that seems to indicate that freshwater dips are only a short term palliative and do not solve the problem

 

http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum/genera...hed-mantle.html

 

Albert

 

 

Here is a link to a long scientific article on Perkensis.

 

Some of the info will be hard to understand as it is very technical but there are some section that are definitely of interest to us (e.g. to use of plasma from another species to reduce the incidence of Perkensis)

 

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2164/11/228

 

Albert

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albertthiel

Another parasite that may be involved is

 

Haplosporidium nelsoni

 

Need to do some more research on it ...

 

Albert

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Just a quicky here, thanks Al.

As anyone who has ever battled a parasite infection ( ich, velvet, etc) knows, It is a loooooong drawn out battle of many loses. Especially in reef tanks where we have zero options for medications. THe key is controlling it. MOst of your aquariums have so many potential problems just waiting to show their evil face. If you really think you beat that ich problem, I can pretty much guarantee you the parasites are still in there, you just have it under control. A temp drop or other stress factor can jeopardize your animals immune system to the degree that the parasite gains control and you get a beak out. It may never be completely eradicated. Sad but true.

But it can be controlled. MAYBE even to the point of non existence. this is what we are trying to accomplish at this point. Unfortunately, the only weapons we have so far are fresh water dips and iron reduction.

Last night I dipped some clams in a tee tree oil bath with interesting results. None which I chose to comment on at this point

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albertthiel

So very true ... the parasites are always there it's just that the fish can fight them off ... and as long as corals do fine they can ward off parasites as well, it's just that with what we are dealing with for the Clams they do not seem to have any way of resisting those parasitic infestations as evidenced by many wipe-outs of oyster beds and the loss of Clams by dealers and hobbyists

 

Zeph ... at some point in the past I used to dip some animals in salt water to which I had added Metronidazole using tank water in a separate container and that seemed to help in nursing some corals back to help.

 

We ought to look into the impact of antibiotics on clams. I am not saying that it will work but it certainly is worth a try ...

 

Albert

 

 

Just a quicky here, thanks Al.

As anyone who has ever battled a parasite infection ( ich, velvet, etc) knows, It is a loooooong drawn out battle of many loses. Especially in reef tanks where we have zero options for medications. THe key is controlling it. MOst of your aquariums have so many potential problems just waiting to show their evil face. If you really think you beat that ich problem, I can pretty much guarantee you the parasites are still in there, you just have it under control. A temp drop or other stress factor can jeopardize your animals immune system to the degree that the parasite gains control and you get a beak out. It may never be completely eradicated. Sad but true.

But it can be controlled. MAYBE even to the point of non existence. this is what we are trying to accomplish at this point. Unfortunately, the only weapons we have so far are fresh water dips and iron reduction.

Last night I dipped some clams in a tee tree oil bath with interesting results. None which I chose to comment on at this point

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So very true ... the parasites are always there it's just that the fish can fight them off ... and as long as corals do fine they can ward off parasites as well, it's just that with what we are dealing with for the Clams they do not seem to have any way of resisting those parasitic infestations as evidenced by many wipe-outs of oyster beds and the loss of Clams by dealers and hobbyists

 

Zeph ... at some point in the past I used to dip some animals in salt water to which I had added Metronidazole using tank water in a separate container and that seemed to help in nursing some corals back to help.

 

We ought to look into the impact of antibiotics on clams. I am not saying that it will work but it certainly is worth a try ...

 

Albert

 

Albert, You are right on track. We have used Metro when dipping clams, but it most cases it killed off all of the zooxanthellae and the clam would bleach out overnight. Some clams began to recover, but most perished. EVen in extremely diluted, short term dips. We had better luck with just fresh water. I have been thinking a lot about antibiotic dips and have already began. THe popular Tea tree oil is a well known antibiotic, antiviral, and anti fungal. Hospitals are even using it these days for staff infections and MRSA. It is the active ingredient in the popular fish med Melafix. I dont have a clue if it will help or not, but im always up for an experiment. I have been doing 30 minute dips with RO water and full strength Melafix, and the clams tolorate it well. Is it obviously more stressful as they really look worse in recovery, as compared to a regular dip. Im going to give them two weeks rest and recovery, and if theyre still alive, most likely dip them again, but for 45 minutes.

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albertthiel

Thanks for the update ... well I guess Metro.. will not be what we need then. I am familiar with Tea Tree oil but thought that it was mostly anti-microbial and anti-fungal (gets used for acne, athlete's foot etc). but if you think it may work then sure you should continue to try it out ...

 

I'll post some more later as my wife is calling that dinner is ready and you know what that means ... I better get to the table :)

 

Albert

 

 

 

 

Albert, You are right on track. We have used Metro when dipping clams, but it most cases it killed off all of the zooxanthellae and the clam would bleach out overnight. Some clams began to recover, but most perished. EVen in extremely diluted, short term dips. We had better luck with just fresh water. I have been thinking a lot about antibiotic dips and have already began. THe popular Tea tree oil is a well known antibiotic, antiviral, and anti fungal. Hospitals are even using it these days for staff infections and MRSA. It is the active ingredient in the popular fish med Melafix. I dont have a clue if it will help or not, but im always up for an experiment. I have been doing 30 minute dips with RO water and full strength Melafix, and the clams tolorate it well. Is it obviously more stressful as they really look worse in recovery, as compared to a regular dip. Im going to give them two weeks rest and recovery, and if theyre still alive, most likely dip them again, but for 45 minutes.
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If you can get your hands on chloroquine phosphate, it MAY be worth trying. It is an anti-protozoan medication used to treat malaria, among other things, and is very effective at killing Cryptocaryon. Only downside is you need a vet to prescribe it. I've no idea if clams will tolerate it or not, but worth a shot if you feel you have a goner on your hands.

 

Also, on the issue of moving clams from tank to tank, especially large ones. I've had a lagging suspicion for many years that this is due to exposing them to air whilst moving them. Not necessarily the air itself, but the fact that their internal structures are now sagging under all their own weight without being buoyed up by water. Just try lifting a fully expanded anemone or frogspawn coral out of the water, and you can see what it does to the tissue. On a simple animal like a coral this may not be a big deal, but in a large clam you may be tearing the gills or other internal structures which leads to irreparable damage. I haven't done a whole lot of exploring, but I always see large clams subtidally in the wild. Just a hunch, and it doesn't hurt to move them inside of a bag so they are under water as much as possible.

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albertthiel

Wombat, Chloroquine does indeed have quite a few medicinal uses but if I remember correctly, and as articles about it point out, one has to be careful with the dosage in humans when using it for malaria treatment/prevention or for arthritis and other ailments that it is recommended for ... but, as you say, since no one has tried it to my knowledge or what I could find at least on clams, it may be another one to give a try and see whether it is of any use, and helps in preventing the infestation of parasites that leads to the demise of the clams.

 

Perhaps it should be used on a tank in which Perkensis marinus has been cultivated from scrapings off clams and by doctoring the water in that tank with nutrients such as soluble iron and I think phosphate as well and then using Chloroquine to see if it destroys them before actually trying it on a clam. The issue will be of course to make sure Perkensis is present to begin with in the test tank and then after the treatments have the water analyzed (a lab?) to determine whether it is still there or not or whether the concentration has been diminished or whether Perkensis has been totally eliminated. Problem is I think the cost involved in doing all of that.

 

Your point on how to move larger and of course smaller clams is well taken and makes sense. Whether any damage is actually done is not documented (at least I could not find any) but it makes sense the way you describe it.

 

Wasn't aware that it could be used to treats Cryptocaryon .. but then maybe I just forgot about that one :) could be.

 

Thanks for the input

 

Albert

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you can get your hands on chloroquine phosphate, it MAY be worth trying. It is an anti-protozoan medication used to treat malaria, among other things, and is very effective at killing Cryptocaryon. Only downside is you need a vet to prescribe it. I've no idea if clams will tolerate it or not, but worth a shot if you feel you have a goner on your hands.

 

Also, on the issue of moving clams from tank to tank, especially large ones. I've had a lagging suspicion for many years that this is due to exposing them to air whilst moving them. Not necessarily the air itself, but the fact that their internal structures are now sagging under all their own weight without being buoyed up by water. Just try lifting a fully expanded anemone or frogspawn coral out of the water, and you can see what it does to the tissue. On a simple animal like a coral this may not be a big deal, but in a large clam you may be tearing the gills or other internal structures which leads to irreparable damage. I haven't done a whole lot of exploring, but I always see large clams subtidally in the wild. Just a hunch, and it doesn't hurt to move them inside of a bag so they are under water as much as possible.

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If you can get your hands on chloroquine phosphate, it MAY be worth trying. It is an anti-protozoan medication used to treat malaria, among other things, and is very effective at killing Cryptocaryon. Only downside is you need a vet to prescribe it. I've no idea if clams will tolerate it or not, but worth a shot if you feel you have a goner on your hands.

 

Also, on the issue of moving clams from tank to tank, especially large ones. I've had a lagging suspicion for many years that this is due to exposing them to air whilst moving them. Not necessarily the air itself, but the fact that their internal structures are now sagging under all their own weight without being buoyed up by water. Just try lifting a fully expanded anemone or frogspawn coral out of the water, and you can see what it does to the tissue. On a simple animal like a coral this may not be a big deal, but in a large clam you may be tearing the gills or other internal structures which leads to irreparable damage. I haven't done a whole lot of exploring, but I always see large clams subtidally in the wild. Just a hunch, and it doesn't hurt to move them inside of a bag so they are under water as much as possible.

 

You know, i have read about this, and written it off as having nothing to do with pM, But now that I think about it - Let me explain.

THe sick Gigas I have had been exposed to many, many sick clams, but never showed any symptoms for many years - UNTIL. I did move it to another tank in the same system. WHen moving it I was troubled because she would not close up at all. I shook her, turned her upside down, but her mantle was about 80% fully opened. It seamed funny at the time. SO I dragged her out with the mantle sagging and dripping all over the place, Soon after she came down with a nasty case of PM.

THank you for that Wombat. Good stuff.

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albertthiel

Zeph ... am going to a LFS this morning who keeps clams for sale and am going to discuss with him what we are on about here in this thread. he is an old timer and has been around I would say for over 30 years in this hobby and runs a great store (check his web site http://www.purereef.net )

 

I'll pick his brain to see what he has to say and whether he has any input for us that we have not dealt with so far.

 

Now on moving the clams ... yes I think Wombat has a point indeed.

 

Albert

 

 

You know, i have read about this, and written it off as having nothing to do with pM, But now that I think about it - Let me explain.

THe sick Gigas I have had been exposed to many, many sick clams, but never showed any symptoms for many years - UNTIL. I did move it to another tank in the same system. WHen moving it I was troubled because she would not close up at all. I shook her, turned her upside down, but her mantle was about 80% fully opened. It seamed funny at the time. SO I dragged her out with the mantle sagging and dripping all over the place, Soon after she came down with a nasty case of PM.

THank you for that Wombat. Good stuff.

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Zeph ... am going to a LFS this morning who keeps clams for sale and am going to discuss with him what we are on about here in this thread. he is an old timer and has been around I would say for over 30 years in this hobby and runs a great store (check his web site http://www.purereef.net )

 

I'll pick his brain to see what he has to say and whether he has any input for us that we have not dealt with so far.

 

Now on moving the clams ... yes I think Wombat has a point indeed.

 

Albert

 

Thanks Albert,

Let me know if he has any nice BIG clams for sale. His store looks really nice, have fun!

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albertthiel

Will do and yes that store is one of the best ones i have seen in a long time and extremely well maintained too

 

Albert

 

 

Thanks Albert,

Let me know if he has any nice BIG clams for sale. His store looks really nice, have fun!

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THe sick Gigas I have had been exposed to many, many sick clams, but never showed any symptoms for many years - UNTIL. I did move it to another tank in the same system. WHen moving it I was troubled because she would not close up at all. I shook her, turned her upside down, but her mantle was about 80% fully opened. It seamed funny at the time. SO I dragged her out with the mantle sagging and dripping all over the place, Soon after she came down with a nasty case of PM.

THank you for that Wombat. Good stuff.

+1 Zeph it i possible that a healthy clam which was exposed to PM but did not show symptoms simply caved in and stressed when exposed to air. And these repeated dips you are doing also exposes the clam to the air again.

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albertthiel

Interesting indeed as there does not seem to be a consensus on whether or not they can be exposed to air. Since some are found in intertidal areas they may be exposed to air for some time and do seem to survive in the wild.

 

So not sure what to say here ... expose to air or not ?

 

I guess yet another factor to consider Zeph ...

 

Research in the net does not give a clear answer as to whether it is detrimental or not

 

I have never had large ones but small ones yes and would always move them under water so I do not have any experience as to what might happen if they are in the open air.

 

Albert

 

 

+1 Zeph it i possible that a healthy clam which was exposed to PM but did not show symptoms simply caved in and stressed when exposed to air. And these repeated dips you are doing also exposes the clam to the air again.
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jedimasterben

Zeph, I keep thinking about you moving that clam, and I keep forgetting to ask:

 

 

 

 

HOW THE EFF DO YOU DO IT??? That thing has to weigh 250-300lbs. Do you use some sort of crane? :lol:

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albertthiel
Zeph, I keep thinking about you moving that clam, and I keep forgetting to ask:

 

 

HOW THE EFF DO YOU DO IT??? That thing has to weigh 250-300lbs. Do you use some sort of crane? :lol:

 

Good question indeed ... :) but not sure he moves that large one and when he is talking about moving clams I think he is referring to small ones ...

 

Albert

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jedimasterben
Good question indeed ... :) but not sure he moves that large one and when he is talking about moving clams I think he is referring to small ones ...

 

Albert

No, Zeph is having an issue with his 20" T. gigas.

 

This one:

dipf.jpg

 

20120501151957724.jpg

 

 

His hospital tank is 60 gallons, almost as big as my new display tank :)

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Good question indeed ... :) but not sure he moves that large one and when he is talking about moving clams I think he is referring to small ones ...

 

Albert

Jedi,

I kid you not, it lifted me off my feet when i pulled it from the 125 gallon. and I am well over 250 lbs. ( no fat all muscle)

 

Albert,

I have been working with a very sick huge gigas clam. Not my biggest, but well over 20 inches, and I have something very exciting to report for geeks like us. A sign of zooxanthelae replacement. Out with the old and in with the new. I took some shots and will post when I get home. I also believe I have completely cured a deresa. I have before and after shots. Talk soooonnnn!!!

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albertthiel
No, Zeph is having an issue with his 20" T. gigas.

 

This one:

 

 

 

His hospital tank is 60 gallons, almost as big as my new display tank :)

 

wow Indeed wonder how he did that ... Zeph ... ???

 

Jedi,

I kid you not, it lifted me off my feet when i pulled it from the 125 gallon. and I am well over 250 lbs. ( no fat all muscle)

 

Albert,

I have been working with a very sick huge gigas clam. Not my biggest, but well over 20 inches, and I have something very exciting to report for geeks like us. A sign of zooxanthelae replacement. Out with the old and in with the new. I took some shots and will post when I get home. I also believe I have completely cured a deresa. I have before and after shots. Talk soooonnnn!!!

 

Well I can't wait to read what you did and how you thought of what it was that you did ... but congrats that is super excellent news Zeph

 

Albert

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