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Scorched

3 Foot Long Nano

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itchy
40 minutes ago, Scorched said:

 

Which method are you going for?  Herbie or Dual Gravity with air in both drains?

 

If its the dual gravity version I'd recommend 1-2 filter socks stuffed with filter floss that exit just slightly above the water level in the sump but drain straight on top of the floss.  This cuts the noise and eliminates the bubble sound from air trying to escape from below the water.   When I did it this way for 5 years on versions 1.0 it worked well with vinyl tubing.  As soon as I transferred the method to PVC and some complex piping with lots of bends it was ok but not as great as it was.  This is why I went with the herbie / single siphon setup on the latest tank.  It also let me push a lot more flow through the tank.  This however comes with increased risk but its completely manageable if you keep the total water volume to a reasonable amount.

Going for the dual gravity similar to your version 1. Thanks, I’ll get some filter floss and put it in the sock like you suggested. 

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itchy
On 5/25/2020 at 1:12 AM, Scorched said:

 

Which method are you going for?  Herbie or Dual Gravity with air in both drains?

 

If its the dual gravity version I'd recommend 1-2 filter socks stuffed with filter floss that exit just slightly above the water level in the sump but drain straight on top of the floss.  This cuts the noise and eliminates the bubble sound from air trying to escape from below the water.   When I did it this way for 5 years on versions 1.0 it worked well with vinyl tubing.  As soon as I transferred the method to PVC and some complex piping with lots of bends it was ok but not as great as it was.  This is why I went with the herbie / single siphon setup on the latest tank.  It also let me push a lot more flow through the tank.  This however comes with increased risk but its completely manageable if you keep the total water volume to a reasonable amount.

Was able to get larger bulkheads (3/4”) for the returns. Now I’m getting a suction sound coming from both of the drains/screens. Any suggestions? I’ve tried to turn my pump up and down to raise and lower the water level in the display I order to get rid of the sound, but no luck. 

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Scorched
18 hours ago, itchy said:

Was able to get larger bulkheads (3/4”) for the returns. Now I’m getting a suction sound coming from both of the drains/screens. Any suggestions? I’ve tried to turn my pump up and down to raise and lower the water level in the display I order to get rid of the sound, but no luck. 

Hmmmm

 

For me when I did the Dual Gravity version on the new tank the sound all came from the sump.  

 

 

The air was getting trapped in the pipe and the bubbles had to burst out at the bottom.  If the pipe is above the sump waterline there should be a full channel of air from the top of the tank to the sump and there shouldn't be bubbles.  Then to stop any waterfall noise you have it fall on the floss inside the filter socks.

 

A sucking sound would be from the pipe trying to make a siphon and a bit too much flow coming from the return pump.

 

Have you tried any other adjustments?

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itchy
31 minutes ago, Scorched said:

Hmmmm

 

For me when I did the Dual Gravity version on the new tank the sound all came from the sump.  

 

 

The air was getting trapped in the pipe and the bubbles had to burst out at the bottom.  If the pipe is above the sump waterline there should be a full channel of air from the top of the tank to the sump and there shouldn't be bubbles.  Then to stop any waterfall noise you have it fall on the floss inside the filter socks.

 

A sucking sound would be from the pipe trying to make a siphon and a bit too much flow coming from the return pump.

 

Have you tried any other adjustments?

After toying with it all day, it seems like air was getting trapped in the return pipes at the sump and somehow causing a gurgling/bubbling sound up in the drain area of the display. I noticed that when I completely remove the filter floss, the gurgling in the main display stops, but the waterfall sound in the sump starts (as you mentioned).
At one point, the return pump section of the sump was nearly empty. And I couldn’t understand the science of why it was happening. Would you advise adding any holes anywhere? (Return elbow, return tube at the sump). Or should I try to go the Herbie route?

 

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Scorched
5 hours ago, itchy said:

After toying with it all day, it seems like air was getting trapped in the return pipes at the sump and somehow causing a gurgling/bubbling sound up in the drain area of the display. I noticed that when I completely remove the filter floss, the gurgling in the main display stops, but the waterfall sound in the sump starts (as you mentioned).
At one point, the return pump section of the sump was nearly empty. And I couldn’t understand the science of why it was happening. Would you advise adding any holes anywhere? (Return elbow, return tube at the sump). Or should I try to go the Herbie route?

 

I also originally put Tees on the drain lines so that I could put a hole on those caps in the video above.  This would also allow for a full line of air in the pipe to quiet down the drain.  So it could be worth a try if you did the same.  If you have elbows I'd be hesitant to drill a hole in the elbow as you'd have to swap them if you wanted to go to a siphon system.

 

You could also try a few small holes near the bottom of the drain pipes to make sure air has full path from the display tank to the sump.   I don't know how flexible your drain plumbing is or if you have have extra pipe to change things up.

 

Can you post a picture?

 

Don't put any holes in the return lines.  Mistype?

 

The siphon version has worked well for me if you wanted to give that a try as well.  Its a little more complicated and requires your drains to exit below the water line in the sump.  I filled in the covers using moldable plastic with some black color pellets.  The one on the left is for the siphon side.  It pulls water in from the bottom and no air.  The one on the right is for the trickle.  It just allows a little bit of water to go down the drain with air to keep it quiet.

 

TQRut64h.jpg

 

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itchy
16 minutes ago, Scorched said:

I also originally put Tees on the drain lines so that I could put a hole on those caps in the video above.  This would also allow for a full line of air in the pipe to quiet down the drain.  So it could be worth a try if you did the same.  If you have elbows I'd be hesitant to drill a hole in the elbow as you'd have to swap them if you wanted to go to a siphon system.

 

You could also try a few small holes near the bottom of the drain pipes to make sure air has full path from the display tank to the sump.   I don't know how flexible your drain plumbing is or if you have have extra pipe to change things up.

 

Can you post a picture?

 

Don't put any holes in the return lines.  Mistype?

 

The siphon version has worked well for me if you wanted to give that a try as well.  Its a little more complicated and requires your drains to exit below the water line in the sump.  I filled in the covers using moldable plastic with some black color pellets.  The one on the left is for the siphon side.  It pulls water in from the bottom and no air.  The one on the right is for the trickle.  It just allows a little bit of water to go down the drain with air to keep it quiet.

 

TQRut64h.jpg

 

Sorry, I did mistype lol. I won’t be putting any holes in my return lines. I made the plumbing in the sump fairly flexible and used the clear tubing that’s a little easier to work with. Here are a few pictures of the setup. As I’m typing this, the sound is pretty loud. Sounds like swishing from the main display drain. 
 

F4D332CB-52F9-47B7-91AF-2E57370658DE.jpeg

2E73043C-5E5F-4469-B2AF-BD795597C134.jpeg

7E05A1C2-8B4E-4C59-A484-527DAE4177BD.jpeg

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Scorched

Ya you did well by using flexible tubing to start to make faster and easier adjustments.  Are the ends of the tubing right on top of the floss?  Is there a small gap for the air to escape from the bottom?  I'm sorta running out of ideas honestly.  Maybe I just lucked out on the first build but I used 1" vinyl tubing into a filter sock stuff with floss and it was quiet for years.

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itchy
51 minutes ago, Scorched said:

Ya you did well by using flexible tubing to start to make faster and easier adjustments.  Are the ends of the tubing right on top of the floss?  Is there a small gap for the air to escape from the bottom?  I'm sorta running out of ideas honestly.  Maybe I just lucked out on the first build but I used 1" vinyl tubing into a filter sock stuff with floss and it was quiet for years.

Thanks. I believe there is a small gap between the tubing and the floss. I’ll double check. Is the mouth of the drain in the display ever completely submerged or will it naturally have a breathing “hole”?

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Scorched
38 minutes ago, itchy said:

Thanks. I believe there is a small gap between the tubing and the floss. I’ll double check. Is the mouth of the drain in the display ever completely submerged or will it naturally have a breathing “hole”?

The covers need to have an air hole.  So I usually put them with the lines vertical when I ran them just as gravity drains.

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Scorched
Staying at home has given me some free time to get the tank looking nice.  And without a frag swap I had to buy a few online frags and pickup a few things from New Wave.
 
KmMieAT.jpg 
w4lbNoW.jpg 
CRB8bMU.jpg
 
WrYUd3j.jpg
 
NHiPu4K.jpg 
0evbC8M.jpg
 
YfTfPwp.jpg 
 
 
 
New Frag of TNT Anacropora
 
xhFZnFw.jpg
 
New Frag of unnamed yellow acro
 
BXWNQ02.jpg
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mitten_reef

Wow, looking real nice in here! 👍

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tmc1313

Scorched, I'm a big nano fan and particularly a fan of your 12 gallon. Well done! I don't know if it's  been asked. I see you don't use a background, so my question is what color is the wall behind the tank? I think without a background it adds to the overall aesthetic "in a good way". I'm thinking for my next build I will not use a background as long as no cords or equipment is visible. 

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itchy
On 5/27/2020 at 10:21 PM, Scorched said:

The covers need to have an air hole.  So I usually put them with the lines vertical when I ran them just as gravity drains.

Just an update. I’ve managed to fine tune the drain/return and have significantly reduced the noise. I ended up shortening the flexible tubes to just above the filter floss and that seemed to do the trick. 
During this troubleshooting, I noticed fluctuations in the water level. Sometimes in the main display and sometimes in the sump. I have a hyggar dc pump (similar to your Jaebo). Is it normal for DC pumps to fluctuate like that? Just thinking ahead l, and I could see that being an issue if I add an auto top off. 

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Scorched
3 hours ago, tmc1313 said:

Scorched, I'm a big nano fan and particularly a fan of your 12 gallon. Well done! I don't know if it's  been asked. I see you don't use a background, so my question is what color is the wall behind the tank? I think without a background it adds to the overall aesthetic "in a good way". I'm thinking for my next build I will not use a background as long as no cords or equipment is visible. 

Thanks tmc!

 

The wall is just a slight offwhite tan.  Just a neutral color that is in the majority of the rooms in our house.  We left the brighter colorful paints to bedrooms, bathrooms etc.  The white or blue light from the fixture overhead just blends well with the back wall as its the same tone as whats going into the tank.

 

It definitely helps in the illusion of making a tank seem bigger.  Just looking straight though with clean glass makes viewers think the tank could be 2' deep.  They add in the air gap behind the tank as part of the volume when in reality its only 8".  The same is true for peninsula style tanks but usually the other side has a living room with decorations and stuff that clutters up the view.  The juxtaposition of fish and corals swimming in front of a couch or kitchen can be cool but for me it ruins the ocean design

 

1 minute ago, itchy said:

Just an update. I’ve managed to fine tune the drain/return and have significantly reduced the noise. I ended up shortening the flexible tubes to just above the filter floss and that seemed to do the trick. 
During this troubleshooting, I noticed fluctuations in the water level. Sometimes in the main display and sometimes in the sump. I have a hyggar dc pump (similar to your Jaebo). Is it normal for DC pumps to fluctuate like that? Just thinking ahead l, and I could see that being an issue if I add an auto top off. 

Yep that sounds just like how I ran my first version.

 

As for the pump a little bit of fluctuation should be fine.  My first tank used an Eheim 1260 ran at full power and then a valve on the return line to dial it back just slightly.  The newer DC pump with control should be better than running a pump with a valve.  I don't know any specifics on that particular pump.  Maybe the control values vary slightly, idk. 

 

Are the fluctuations in the display tank?  The rising and falling water can change the sound level and alert you that something needs to be adjusted.  The main place it should always change should be the sump and that level is maintained with an ATO.

 

An auto top off is great to have on any tank.  As long as you have a quality one with 2 levels of redundancy.  2 opticals or an optical and float.  You want to maintain a good salinity but the main thing is to prevent overfilling too much.  Too much in the tank screws up the salinity for sure, but it leads to floods of the sump or display tank if the sump level is just too high in general.  You'll get this dialed in within a few hours / days and then it should be fairly easy to maintain for a long time.

 

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itchy
29 minutes ago, Scorched said:

Thanks tmc!

 

The wall is just a slight offwhite tan.  Just a neutral color that is in the majority of the rooms in our house.  We left the brighter colorful paints to bedrooms, bathrooms etc.  The white or blue light from the fixture overhead just blends well with the back wall as its the same tone as whats going into the tank.

 

It definitely helps in the illusion of making a tank seem bigger.  Just looking straight though with clean glass makes viewers think the tank could be 2' deep.  They add in the air gap behind the tank as part of the volume when in reality its only 8".  The same is true for peninsula style tanks but usually the other side has a living room with decorations and stuff that clutters up the view.  The juxtaposition of fish and corals swimming in front of a couch or kitchen can be cool but for me it ruins the ocean design

 

Yep that sounds just like how I ran my first version.

 

As for the pump a little bit of fluctuation should be fine.  My first tank used an Eheim 1260 ran at full power and then a valve on the return line to dial it back just slightly.  The newer DC pump with control should be better than running a pump with a valve.  I don't know any specifics on that particular pump.  Maybe the control values vary slightly, idk. 

 

Are the fluctuations in the display tank?  The rising and falling water can change the sound level and alert you that something needs to be adjusted.  The main place it should always change should be the sump and that level is maintained with an ATO.

 

An auto top off is great to have on any tank.  As long as you have a quality one with 2 levels of redundancy.  2 opticals or an optical and float.  You want to maintain a good salinity but the main thing is to prevent overfilling too much.  Too much in the tank screws up the salinity for sure, but it leads to floods of the sump or display tank if the sump level is just too high in general.  You'll get this dialed in within a few hours / days and then it should be fairly easy to maintain for a long time.

 

Oddly, the level in the display tank is about 1/2” lower sometimes. As soon as I notice it, I check the sump and the water level in the return pump section of the the sump is higher than normal. The only thing I can think of that would cause that would be the pump. 

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itchy
On 5/27/2020 at 6:57 AM, Scorched said:

Hmmmm

 

For me when I did the Dual Gravity version on the new tank the sound all came from the sump.  

 

 

The air was getting trapped in the pipe and the bubbles had to burst out at the bottom.  If the pipe is above the sump waterline there should be a full channel of air from the top of the tank to the sump and there shouldn't be bubbles.  Then to stop any waterfall noise you have it fall on the floss inside the filter socks.

 

A sucking sound would be from the pipe trying to make a siphon and a bit too much flow coming from the return pump.

 

Have you tried any other adjustments?

I think what’s happening is that the system is going in and out of siphon. Are the drain openings in the display supposed to be completely underwater? If not, am I supposed to turn the return pump down until they are not completely underwater? Here’s a picture of the drain (bulkhead on the right)

 

3C87D696-0587-4821-BBAB-0462D086D450.jpeg

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Scorched
17 minutes ago, itchy said:

I think what’s happening is that the system is going in and out of siphon. Are the drain openings in the display supposed to be completely underwater? If not, am I supposed to turn the return pump down until they are not completely underwater? Here’s a picture of the drain (bulkhead on the right)

 

3C87D696-0587-4821-BBAB-0462D086D450.jpeg

I don't remember the exact level of the water in relation to the bulkhead.  

 

This is one of the oldest photos I could find just looking at the bulkhead while the tank was running.

 

BW6d53o.jpg

 

If you zoom in a bit you can see there looks to be a tiny gap behind the screen where an air hole is.  Keep the screen on and turn the pump down just slightly.

 

The 1" drain bulkhead also looks fairly low.  It most likely still works just fine but you my find the running water level displeasing.

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itchy
On 6/8/2020 at 9:37 AM, Scorched said:

I don't remember the exact level of the water in relation to the bulkhead.  

 

This is one of the oldest photos I could find just looking at the bulkhead while the tank was running.

 

BW6d53o.jpg

 

If you zoom in a bit you can see there looks to be a tiny gap behind the screen where an air hole is.  Keep the screen on and turn the pump down just slightly.

 

The 1" drain bulkhead also looks fairly low.  It most likely still works just fine but you my find the running water level displeasing.

I’m running out of ideas. Can’t get this sump drain to be quiet. Have you heard of a reverse durso. I bought some fittings to try to set this up, but it’s not working. 
I’m thinking I may also just need to find the “sweet spot” of the height the flexible tubing and filter sock/filter floss (similar to your version 1). 
Is the fact that this system doesn’t have an overflow box/durso drain pipe causing all the noise?

 

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Scorched
31 minutes ago, itchy said:

I’m running out of ideas. Can’t get this sump drain to be quiet. Have you heard of a reverse durso. I bought some fittings to try to set this up, but it’s not working. 
I’m thinking I may also just need to find the “sweet spot” of the height the flexible tubing and filter sock/filter floss (similar to your version 1). 
Is the fact that this system doesn’t have an overflow box/durso drain pipe causing all the noise?

 

Are you going to try a T and air hole near the sump like this?

IMG_20101026_210906.jpg

 

In theory it should work.  My v2 tank was originally going to have the air holes in these caps.  

 

5hrKiGeh.jpg

 

In the end it also wasn't working as well as I had hoped.  So I went with the siphon method.

 

I'm sorry that youre having trouble with this design.  I promise that I was able to have it be completely silent as it was in an office setting next to a bunch of people and they would have been upset if it made any noise and annoyed them.  I might be missing something but it was a very simple setup.  2 1" drain with screens.  Vinyl tubing.  Both had smooth paths to the sump.  The ends of the pipes ended ABOVE the water in the sump.  They went straight into a filter sock stuffed with floss to prevent splashing and to dampen noise.  The pump was an Eheim 1260 that did about 500 gph.  With a valve and back pressure it maybe did 200-300.

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itchy
19 hours ago, Scorched said:

Are you going to try a T and air hole near the sump like this?

IMG_20101026_210906.jpg

 

In theory it should work.  My v2 tank was originally going to have the air holes in these caps.  

 

5hrKiGeh.jpg

 

In the end it also wasn't working as well as I had hoped.  So I went with the siphon method.

 

I'm sorry that youre having trouble with this design.  I promise that I was able to have it be completely silent as it was in an office setting next to a bunch of people and they would have been upset if it made any noise and annoyed them.  I might be missing something but it was a very simple setup.  2 1" drain with screens.  Vinyl tubing.  Both had smooth paths to the sump.  The ends of the pipes ended ABOVE the water in the sump.  They went straight into a filter sock stuffed with floss to prevent splashing and to dampen noise.  The pump was an Eheim 1260 that did about 500 gph.  With a valve and back pressure it maybe did 200-300.

Yes, something very similar to the picture you sent. I’m using the Jebao DCP-4000 and have dialed it down to about 50. 
Was your flexible tubing vertical right above the sump, or did it come in at an angle? What I noticed is that it seems like air is getting trapped between the end of the vinyl tube and the filter floss. Seems like the air has nowhere to go and ends up as a gurgle in the display (bulkhead drains). 
 

***Update: I finally got it to quiet down! Since it seemed like the trapped air had nowhere to go except back up into the display, I added a couple of “breather” holes in the flexible drain tubes (about 3 inches above the water level of the sump, and voila, silence!) I will look into adding s some small flexible tubing to these holes in the future, but for now I think this works. Thanks again for your help and suggestions. 

 

5F0A8AF7-ED7A-4502-9B41-AB5F8E8F3FA4.jpeg

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Scorched
On 6/10/2020 at 5:44 PM, itchy said:

 

***Update: I finally got it to quiet down! Since it seemed like the trapped air had nowhere to go except back up into the display, I added a couple of “breather” holes in the flexible drain tubes (about 3 inches above the water level of the sump, and voila, silence!) 

 

giphy.gif

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Scorched

A few days old but my tank was featured as Reef of the Day on R2R

 

Home Page

 

Kj7PGUS.jpg

 

 

Email Blast

 

UpnNimI.jpg

 

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Scorched

@itchy Do you have a build thread of your own started so we can follow your progress?

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itchy
2 minutes ago, Scorched said:

@itchy Do you have a build thread of your own started so we can follow your progress?

I don’t, but I have been taking pictures throughout the whole process. Writing isn’t my strong suit, but I may perhaps give it a shot. Any pointers?

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Scorched
43 minutes ago, itchy said:

I don’t, but I have been taking pictures throughout the whole process. Writing isn’t my strong suit, but I may perhaps give it a shot. Any pointers?

Just start a thread with what your tank is about.  Whats the size, how you're plumbing / filtering it, what equipment you plan to use or are using.  What corals or fish you want to have, etc

 

Add some early pictures of how it started and then another post or two about how it looks now.

 

Its great to have a timeline of how things progress.  Yourself as well as others can see how things change over time based on the equipment changes/upgrade as well as maintenance.  You may document that you're trying "Brand X" for removing some algae or helping to color up or feed certain corals.  You can then post updates as you continue that product over a few weeks or months.  Then you can more easily see if it was making a good or bad change.  Maybe even no change at all and find out its not worth continuing to spend money on.  If nothing else its great just for yourself to see pictures of the tank get better over time.  This is a great way to stay motivated and see the progression.  Many corals can take months to grow and improve but if you document these small changes its positive reinforcement to keep going.

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