Kat's Ol' Max

[chrssprngs]

Waiting 1 hour to dose part A. I thought to start with part B since alk was falling much faster than calcium.

 

 

 

With waterchanges every 10 days calcium drops to the 200 range. I'm trying to do water changes every other day to keep it up. Not going to touch KALK till I can get the tank to some stability.

 

Fresh mix water was: Cal 500 dkh 9.3 Changed the water on Tuesday.

Todays values are Cal 350, dKH 6.1

Sounds like a pretty labor intensive and costly (salt mix) calcium supplementation.

[Looselyhuman]

Waiting 1 hour to dose part A. I thought to start with part B since alk was falling much faster than calcium.

 

 

 

With waterchanges every 10 days calcium drops to the 200 range. I'm trying to do water changes every other day to keep it up. Not going to touch KALK till I can get the tank to some stability.

 

Fresh mix water was: Cal 500 dkh 9.3 Changed the water on Tuesday.

Todays values are Cal 350, dKH 6.1

 

Sorry that the frustration continues. Not the trend I was expecting after water changes but probably best to keep up with them and see what happens. Sounds like you're due for another?

 

The advice about the WC route being expensive btw would be a concern if this was a long term strategy, but I think the goal right now is to get back to a more stable starting place, correct?

[chrssprngs]

Sorry that the frustration continues. Not the trend I was expecting after water changes but probably best to keep up with them and see what happens. Sounds like you're due for another?

 

The advice about the WC route being expensive btw would be a concern if this was a long term strategy, but I think the goal right now is to get back to a more stable starting place, correct?

Most definitely, but what I am reading is telling me that her Calcium demand will not allow her stabilization without a steady addition of Calcium. I am not a chemist, but I don't understand why this is so complicated. I rely on "models" for guidance. With the variety of proven methods utilized in the hobby to supplement and maintain Ca and dKH, if one method doesn't work (Kalwasser) then shouldn't she just try another proven method like Calcium reactor or 2 part dosing and settle in on one that meets her needs. I have never heard of anyone using water changes to manipulate Calcium and dKH.

 

edit; Kalkwasser

Edited September 6, 2012 by chrssprngs

[Looselyhuman]

Most definitely, but what I am reading is telling me that her Calcium demand will not allow her stabilization without a steady addition of Calcium. I am not a chemist, but I don't understand why this is so complicated. I rely on "models" for guidance. With the variety of proven methods utilized in the hobby to supplement and maintain Ca and dKH, if one method doesn't work (Kalwasser) then shouldn't she just try another proven method like Calcium reactor or 2 part dosing and settle in on one that meets her needs. I have never heard of anyone using water changes to manipulate Calcium and dKH.

 

edit; Kalkwasser

 

Agreed completely. I think what we're trying to do with the WCs is two-fold. 1.) get back from the position of being artificially imbalanced on the ca/alk ratio from inconsistent use of buffers, 2.) determine a baseline and develop a dosing strategy (I prefer Kalk as a starting place and 2-part if needed but there's some resistance/concern about Kalk overdose here) based on that baseline. IMO

[chrssprngs]

Agreed completely. I think what we're trying to do with the WCs is two-fold. 1.) get back from the position of being artificially imbalanced on the ca/alk ratio from inconsistent use of buffers, 2.) determine a baseline and develop a dosing strategy (I prefer Kalk as a starting place and 2-part if needed but there's some resistance/concern about Kalk overdose here) based on that baseline. IMO

I see. Wasn't being critical, just wasn't understanding the intent.

[Looselyhuman]

I see. Wasn't being critical, just wasn't understanding the intent.

 

No worries at all. I am just hoping the dialog helps Kat. She's been getting a lot of conflicting/confusing advice.

[metrokat]

+1 on getting loads of confusing advice.

 

@Chris: Hyps explained it correctly. Goal for the next week (possibly 2 weeks) is frequent water changes, like every other day maybe to get to my tanks previously recorded natural water parameters using Red Sea Coral PRO salt water.

 

After than, and with daily checks on water parameters, we will come up with a long term plan.

[metrokat]

I'm just staring at your tank right now (FTS from July anyway) and wondering WTF is sucking it up so quickly. That birdsnest is a candidate. Also not seeing a lot of coralline - do you have a lot that I can't see?

 

Personally I can't imagine keeping a reef without Kalk, and I've never had a problem. Wondering about your ATO. What kind is it? Is it sensitive or does it do large batches? Agree w/others btw that it will do more harm than good if not consistent.

 

If your dKH keeps dropping after your next WC then I think you're going to have to bite the bullet and accept that while Kalk may not give you the immediate outcome you want, it is a necessary evil (unless you really want to dose 5ml of A&B 2 times every day).

I have a video linked up to the first post too, check that out.

I have 2 large (for my tank) birdsnest colonies.And I can list out all my corals later tonight (about 100 frags, only 22 of which are SPS including the 2 large birdnests).

I have the JBJ ATO and use Toms Aqualifter so by no means is my ATO dumping a ton of water in the sump.

My reservoir only holds 2G of water.

 

 

 

And yes, the tank is heavily coated with coralline.

[Looselyhuman]

I have a video linked up to the first post too, check that out.

I have 2 large (for my tank) birdsnest colonies.And I can list out all my corals later tonight (about 100 frags, only 22 of which are SPS including the 2 large birdnests).

I have the JBJ ATO and use Toms Aqualifter so by no means is my ATO dumping a ton of water in the sump.

My reservoir only holds 2G of water.

 

And yes, the tank is heavily coated with coralline.

 

The pink ones grow very fast and yours is relatively huge. Also didn't notice the Pocillopora/Stylophora which can add mass very quickly also. Guess that's it.

 

Let us know your params after today's WC?

[Nano sapiens]

I have a video linked up to the first post too, check that out.

I have 2 large (for my tank) birdsnest colonies.And I can list out all my corals later tonight (about 100 frags, only 22 of which are SPS including the 2 large birdnests).

I have the JBJ ATO and use Toms Aqualifter so by no means is my ATO dumping a ton of water in the sump.

My reservoir only holds 2G of water.

 

 

 

And yes, the tank is heavily coated with coralline.

 

SPS can use a lot, but so can LPS. These two (and macros like Halimeda) are the biggest users, followed by coralline.

[Looselyhuman]

SPS can use a lot, but so can LPS. These two (and macros like Halimeda) are the biggest users, followed by coralline.

 

Very true.

 

Would be good to calculate how much the dKH falls per day. Sounds like it's somewhere between 1-1.5 when you do nothing, Kat?

 

If WCs are a losing battle because of the uptake really being this fast, then I think this strategy to find your natural balance may have to be cut short.

[metrokat]

Changed 10% water. Params of new water

Calcium 490

dKh 9.8

 

3 hours later, tank parameters

Calcium 350 (no change)

dKh 6.4 (up 0.3 points)

[patback]

With the very little knowledge of dosing I have, I would say screw kalk for your problem. Get a Doser and since it's losing so much so rapidly, start with a slow dose and work yor way up. I wouldn't bother waiting it out to get the exact amount you lose daily.

[metrokat]

23 SPS, 15LPS, rocks completely covered in about 4 types of coralline including plating.

Halimeda is present and thriving but not all over the place by any means, I have it on one large rock in the DR and a few small bunches around, and one rock of it in the sump.

 

LPS 4 Varieties Acans

LPS JF Acan Echinata

LPS Green Jeans Acan Echinata

LPS Hellboy Favia

LPS Yellow Eye Favia

LPS Christmas Favia

LPS JF Leptastrea

LPS Green Eye Leptastrea

LPS Gold Coin Leptastrea

LPS Purple Tip Frogspawn

LPS Open Brain

LPS Candy Cane

LPS Scroll Coral

LPS Cyphastrea

SPS Red Planet

SPS Green Acro

SPS Nasuto

SPS ORA Green Birdsnest

SPS Pink Birdsnest

SPS Tubbs Yellow Birdsnest

SPS BOP

SPS Yellow Monticap

SPS Rainbow montipora

SPS Poker Star

SPS JF Poker Star

SPS JF Rainbow Montipora

SPS Orange MontiCap

SPS Montipora Samarensis

SPS Green Pocillopora

SPS Green/Pink pocillopora

SPS Yellow Millie

SPS ORA Green Spongodes

SPS Stag coral

SPS JF Setosa

SPS Yellow Porites

SPS Orange Psammacora

SPS Bali Green Slimer

SPS Pink Millipora

Edited September 7, 2012 by metrokat

[metrokat]

Growth progression: Tubbs Yellow Birdnest

 

June 11 (on the right)

 

June 22: it had fallen over into the sand

 

July 13: trimmed it, lugols dip, and then it browned out

 

Today in low calc and alk: fluffy!

 

Yes I do. Keeps my salinity constant and doesn't dump Kalk in batches like an ATO does. Drip, pause, Drip, pause, Drip, pause.....Ya gotta have rhythm.

What kind of drip is this? a gravity drip or a doser?

 

Cue swoon thud-ing.

I know, he's hot that Mr. A! Drool.

Edited September 7, 2012 by metrokat

[patback]

Want.

[metrokat]

Want.

Tubbs? Yeah, it's really pretty and not that common.

[pyronus]

Looks pretty good, even with all the crazy parameter issues you are having. I'd give you advice but you already have enough of that

 

Good luck straightening everything out.

[metrokat]

Looks pretty good, even with all the crazy parameter issues you are having. I'd give you advice but you already have enough of that

 

Good luck straightening everything out.

Might as well lay it on me Pyro.

[Looselyhuman]

Kat,

 

At this rate your alk will be even lower tomorrow than it was this morning. 0.3 dKH up and another 1 dKH down.

 

I think you know your options. You know what I, Zeph and others recommend. You didn't like the results of that, but I suggest trying again. Maybe without the +2 (get some good pure Seachem maybe). Start with 1tsp/gal and work your way up, testing all the way, and probably continuing WCs until you find the amount that maintains alkalinity. Keep in mind that RHF et al say that Kalk can't raise alkalinity, only maintain it, so you may have to do some larger water changes and/or dose 2-part initially, but I think the advice about stability is key here.

 

Unfortunately doing nothing is not providing stability.

 

You've said daily dosing isn't going to be an option long-term, but as Patback says, a doser is another good option - either way do both parts in equal quantities until your testing gives you good reason to do otherwise (the experts say that should not happen).

 

You have a lot more calcareous bioload than I realized, so it seems like there just isn't going to be an alternative. If it were me, I would be doing Kalk AND 2-part, and probably be looking into a calcium reactor.

 

--ian

[Nano sapiens]

If WCs are a losing battle because of the uptake really being this fast, then I think this strategy to find your natural balance may have to be cut short.

 

^^

Thinking the same thing, but the situation may not be as bad as it looks. Without getting into the techie details (details in here: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/index.php), if Cal tests consistently at a stable level (let's say 350ppm), but Alk is dropping then addition of a BALANCED supplement of some type is needed to raise BOTH (not just an Alk supplement). This seems weird, but the reason is that Alk swings are much broader than Cal (the ratio is not 1:1), so when our simple test kit shows Cal at a stable level it could actually be dropping or rising slightly with each subsequent test, but Alk will show a proportionately much bigger drop or rise. And that's when we all freak out

 

It took me a while to get my head around this concept since I was so used to just reacting to a drop in Alk by adding an Alk supplement. But I knew that something wasn't right and Alk shouldn't be dropping so fast since I was using a 'balanced' product (Kalk). Long story short, slowly increasing the amount of Kalk in the ATOs over a few weeks has got my tank to where Alk is stable without increasing Cal, per my test kits (of course, Cal was rising slowly, but the test kit isn't sensitive enough to show it). Once Cal/Alk readings are consistent test-to-test (no rise, no drop), raising or lowering the Cal/Alk is easy with addition or subtraction of the balanced product.

 

Hope this practical example helps, Kat.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Nano sapiens

[Looselyhuman]

^^

Thinking the same thing, but the situation may not be as bad as it looks. Without getting into the techie details (details in here: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/index.php), if Cal tests consistently at a stable level (let's say 350ppm), but Alk is dropping then addition of a BALANCED supplement of some type is needed to raise BOTH (not just an Alk supplement). This seems weird, but the reason is that Alk swings are much broader than Cal (the ratio is not 1:1), so when our simple test kit shows Cal at a stable level it could actually be dropping or rising slightly with each subsequent test, but Alk will show a proportionately much bigger drop or rise. And that's when we all freak out

 

It took me a while to get my head around this concept since I was so used to just reacting to a drop in Alk by adding an Alk supplement. But I knew that something wasn't right and Alk shouldn't be dropping so fast since I was using a 'balanced' product (Kalk). Long story short, slowly increasing the amount of Kalk in the ATOs over a few weeks has got my tank to where Alk is stable without increasing Cal (per my test kits). Once Cal/Alk readings are consistent test-to-test, raising or lowering the Cal/Alk is easy with addition or subtraction of the balanced product.

 

Hope this practical example helps, Kat.

 

GMTA.

[metrokat]

Nano and Ian, what is your resistance to adding buffer? I know my problems started with overdosing buffer by accident. When I was adding it in a controlled manner it was going a good job. So why shouldn't I continue?

 

I have had poor results with KALK. The corals clearly show you the difference. Maybe a pure KALK product is the way to go and the additional +2 messed up my tank. I don't know. What I do know is that adding buffer has helped me in the past.

Edited September 7, 2012 by metrokat

[jedimasterben]

I think what they're saying is, for right now, build your levels back up using water changes and 2-part, and then set up a kalk drip. Continue testing and dose 2part when needed if kalk alone cannot maintain NSW levels (at least).

[Looselyhuman]

For my part:

 

There's just nobody who knows that says a healthy reef consumes more alkalinity than calcium. This is why Kalk and 2-part buffers are considered perfect - because they replace in the same basic ratio as calcareous life uses it. I've had several reefs at a point where I had Kalk in my ATO and (for some) threw in a certain amount of 2-part daily about equally (yes, _slightly_ more Alk actually - like 4.5mL to 5mL) and never had to test. Would do a sanity check once every couple of months and find 450-500 calcium and 9-11 dKH every time.