Kat's Ol' Max

[jedimasterben]

Where is your ATO draining into? I do 100% of my dosing into my overflow in the main tank, so that it gets sorta mixed in there, and is fully mixed by the time it gets all through my sump.

[Looselyhuman]

I think what they're saying is, for right now, build your levels back up using water changes and 2-part, and then set up a kalk drip. Continue testing and dose 2part when needed if kalk alone cannot maintain NSW levels (at least).

Yep this is right on at this stage. I was hoping she could skip the dosing but it's sucking it up faster than WCs can replace it.

[metrokat]

I think what they're saying is, for right now, build your levels back up using water changes and 2-part, and then set up a kalk drip. Continue testing and dose 2part when needed if kalk alone cannot maintain NSW levels (at least).

That was the plan all along (except the 2 part) because we all hoped (I prayed) that water changes will fix this. I am still going to test tomorrow morning and evening. Then Saturday is waterchange day again.

 

Yep this is right on at this stage. I was hoping she could skip the dosing but it's sucking it up faster than WCs can replace it.

I don't mind dosing Ian, I just don't want to piss off the corals. I want to dose the right thing.

Point to note, the 2 part I use is Two Fishies and it has never, in it's history helped my parameters, no matter how much I dose. I use buffer, boom. Fixes the alkalinity precisely.

[jedimasterben]

You'll need to perform miracle water changes to keep up with the daily uptake alone, not to mention replacing what is already gone, especially since you're only changing 10% out each time.

[metrokat]

I HAS ALIENS IN THE TANK! RUN FOR YER LIFE!

[Looselyhuman]

For my part:

 

There's just nobody who knows that says a healthy reef consumes more alkalinity than calcium. This is why Kalk and 2-part buffers are considered perfect - because they replace in the same basic ratio as calcareous life uses it. I've had several reefs at a point where I had Kalk in my ATO and (for some) threw in a certain amount of 2-part daily about equally (yes, _slightly_ more Alk actually - like 4.5mL to 5mL) and never had to test. Would do a sanity check once every couple of months and find 450-500 calcium and 9-11 dKH every time.

 

Here's one:

 

 

The total neglect (glass, pests) kind of demonstrate my point. I couldn't deal with this tank during that time period but it was on total autopilot. 30g cube w/a 10g sump, BTW. Saturated Kalk probably 1-2 gallons a day.

 

Edit: is this pic showing up for anyone?

Edited September 7, 2012 by Hypsophrys

[jedimasterben]

I don't mind dosing Ian, I just don't want to piss off the corals. I want to dose the right thing.

Point to note, the 2 part I use is Two Fishies and it has never, in it's history helped my parameters, no matter how much I dose. I use buffer, boom. Fixes the alkalinity precisely.

Looking up the TLF C-balance (I think I remember you saying that's what it is) it doesn't say anything other than 5mL of each daily for a 75g tank. Real specific calculations they're doing there. That's one reason I use Brightwell products - on the package and clearly on their website and reseller pages it states how much it takes to raise each parameter by a certain amount for a certain volume, and you can very simply calculate how much you need.

 

Saturated Kalk probably 1-2 gallons a day.

DAAAYYYUUUMMMMM

[Looselyhuman]

That was the plan all along (except the 2 part) because we all hoped (I prayed) that water changes will fix this. I am still going to test tomorrow morning and evening. Then Saturday is waterchange day again.

 

 

I don't mind dosing Ian, I just don't want to piss off the corals. I want to dose the right thing.

Point to note, the 2 part I use is Two Fishies and it has never, in it's history helped my parameters, no matter how much I dose. I use buffer, boom. Fixes the alkalinity precisely.

 

B-Ionic for me.

 

You will always end up un-balanced if one-part buffer is all you're doing.

[Looselyhuman]

I HAS ALIENS IN THE TANK! RUN FOR YER LIFE!

 

This deserves further explanation!!

 

DAAAYYYUUUMMMMM

[metrokat]

Here's one:

 

 

The total neglect (glass, pests) kind of demonstrate my point. I couldn't deal with this tank during that time period but it was on total autopilot. 30g cube w/a 10g sump, BTW. Saturated Kalk probably 1-2 gallons a day.

Wow, dense tank growth! Looks natural and really nice. I'm being mocked (again), this time on Bens thread. Now the argument is that I can't even calculate how much evaporation I get. Lol.

[Looselyhuman]

Wow, dense tank growth! Looks natural and really nice. I'm being mocked (again), this time on Bens thread. Now the argument is that I can't even calculate how much evaporation I get. Lol.

 

Thanks. It was pretty cool to look at it whenever I had 5 minutes and not feel too terribly guilty about the neglect.

 

Yeah... Staying out of it.

[pyronus]

Might as well lay it on me Pyro.

I cant tell you any more or any less than other people have told you already but I think you know whats best for your aquarium without even asking.

 

My system takes saturated Kalk in the top off water, and 5ml of alk and Ca B-Ionic 2 part per day to keep steady parameters. My coral load is about 1/4 of yours, my growth is pretty much out of control.

 

For me the best way to control parameters was to start with a salt mix that had starting values that I liked for Ca, Alk and Mag. From there I just maintain. Most salt mixes have pretty good ratios, if some trace elements have low values you can dose those, but from my perspective it all starts with the salt, dosing is for level maintenance, or minor corrections after an accident, but definitely not to correct for a serious deficiency of one parameter or another.

[Nano sapiens]

Nano and Ian, what is your resistance to adding buffer? I know my problems started with overdosing buffer by accident. When I was adding it in a controlled manner it was going a good job. So why shouldn't I continue?

 

I have had poor results with KALK. The corals clearly show you the difference. Maybe a pure KALK product is the way to go and the additional +2 messed up my tank. I don't know. What I do know is that adding buffer has helped me in the past.

 

Adding just an Alk supplement in this case will of course raise your alkalinity level, but it isn't addressing the fact that you are not providing enough Cal. Your WC regimen is not keeping up with your tank's demand as can bee seen by the lowering Alk levels and if you keep going without dosing you'll see Cal start to register lower on your tests.

 

Theoretically, you could do more volume/more frequent WCs to keep up with demand, but in the long run you'll be exhausted (and broke) . That's why nearly everyone with a large amount of calcifying organisms in their tanks dose some type of balanced product.

 

Kalk is just what I use. Any balanced product is what you need (2 part, Kalk are most common).

 

The problems that you had with Kalk come about when either too much is added or too frequently. This can cause pH spikes. In all my 25+ years of using Kalk I've never had anything bleach because of it because I add always have added it in small amounts and slowly, either by hand or in an ATO.

 

In your case, you can either keep going with your large WCs and start adding a small amount of a balanced product, or go back to your normal WC schedule and then you'll need a larger amount of the balanced product to keep up with demand. Use 2-part if you like (not added at the same time, label should tell you time in between) and monitor the Cal and Alk levels regularly to see if you are adding enough. Slowly raise you Cal level to around 420ppm and then 'fine tune' by adding just a bit more, or less, to where the Alk is testing at a constant level each time. When you finally reach this point, with Cal and Alk withing the 'normal' ranges, then you are done. From there you just need to test periodically and possibly tweak a bit here and there.

 

Don't try to adjust things too fast, subtle changes in the right direction are what you are looking for.

[Looselyhuman]

^^^

[metrokat]

Ima be a turtle, don't y'all worry

[jedimasterben]

Unfortunately, I don't think the turtle method can keep up with the tank's demands, but you know what to do now, and act accordingly.

[AMAYEU]

I hope this helps....

Maybe list all your water test parameters in one post for others to help. Looking for pre and post water change numbers.

 

What worked for me was the following calculations from test results:

 

Test before and right after (few hours) Pre water change - post water change = effect of ex % volume wc. Granted the mixed sw is roughly constant parameters.

 

Post water change - Pre water change (2days later or week later) = consumption after ex days.

 

It appears your alk rose +0.3 after a water change 2 days later. If dkh is curently and roughly at 6 and u want 9, then it will take roughly 0.3 x 10 water change for every 2 days at 10% or 20 days to create a rise of 3dkh.

Is this too many days and too long? Will your corals look bad or have adverse affects?

Now what, higher % water change or start dosing? Your call. You know the parameters when your tank was rocking and should be within a reasonable range of charts and NSW #s. Don't chase a specific number for a number, but one that worked for your tank.

 

For my tank only. Same tank rsm 130 but sumpless and different bio load / corals. I personslly know that I can raise dkh by 1.0 with a tsp of mixed alk (kent coral builder buffer) and raise cal by 30 with 2 tsp of mixed home made pool supply calcium hardness product. All found out by testing. Also understand the inverse relationship between ca and alk. Dose one and the other goes down, at it's ratio.

 

If I understand it correctly, you overdosed alk buffer and it got up to roughly 15-16dkh and a really low ca. Don't remember the exact numbers. I would of done water changes till 10-11dkh. I would be diluting and reducing dkh b/c of lower dkh of the mixed saltwater. The % water change would depend.... Maybe enough to bring down 1dkh after daily water changes for 5/6 days. Your call for a larger water change for a larger dkh reduction and swing. Now you are at 10-11dkh (know this is highest point in my tank when things are so-so but not bad) with probably a low ca but a little higher from when it was at recorded at 15-16. I personally would of added part a or ca slowly till my sweet calc spot number knowing my dkh would decrease lower from 10-11 till your dkh sweet spot. And then play back and forth till a good acceptable number. I am not an kalk user and my above thoughts are without it in mind.

Edited September 7, 2012 by AMAYEU

[metrokat]

Good morning, parameters all laid out, in all cases of water change, the new salt mix was percolating overnight.

 

Date Calcium dKH MAG Notes

8/6/2012 470 8.0

8/13/2012 490 8.2

8/19/2012 250 6.1 Water sampled aug 19 tested on Aug 22

8/22/2012 KALK+2 3tsp in 2G started

8/26/2012 300 8.3 KALK+2, Part A

9/2/2012 320 8.2 KALK+2, Part A

9/3/2012 300 8.3 Stopped KALK Corals pissed off

9/5/2012 360 7.0 15 hours after WC

9/6/2012 350 6.1 Before WC

9/6/2012 350 6.4 3 hours after WC

9/7/2012 350 6.4 14 Hours after WC

 

10% water changed every time

[metrokat]

It appears your alk rose +0.3 after a water change 2 days later. If dkh is curently and roughly at 6 and u want 9, then it will take roughly 0.3 x 10 water change for every 2 days at 10% or 20 days to create a rise of 3dkh.

Is this too many days and too long? Will your corals look bad or have adverse affects?

 

Now what, higher % water change or start dosing? Your call. You know the parameters when your tank was rocking and should be within a reasonable range of charts and NSW #s. Don't chase a specific number for a number, but one that worked for your tank.

Amayeu, thank you for your comments. I'm due for my 3rd water change tomorrow, I am changing 10% every other day right now. The new salt water tests at great levels, and I am testing tank water before the change, several hours after the change, 12+ hours after the change, a day later, and just before the next water change. This will hopefully give me a pattern of consumption to make an informed choice of dosing.

 

I could try 25% water change next week to see if that changes things. But dosing will have to be the long term solution. The only question remains, what product or combination of products to dose.

 

I could re-try KALK. Just regular KALK from BRS. I was researching 2 part additives and have a short list of products I am interested in finding out more about. I'll do a separate post on that.

[jedimasterben]

I could try 25% water change next week to see if that changes things.

This is the only way I see water changes being effective at all.

[kgoldy]

+1

[metrokat]

Thoughts on these products?

 

BRS Sodium Bicarbonate

BRS Soda Ash/Sodium Carbonate

 

BRS Calcium Chloride

 

BRS KALK

[kgoldy]

Thoughts on these products?

 

BRS Sodium Bicarbonate

BRS Soda Ash/Sodium Carbonate

 

BRS Calcium Chloride

 

BRS KALK

 

 

They look great sitting unused in my reef cabinet.

[metrokat]

They look great sitting unused in my reef cabinet.

I'd say hand them over but they probably have expired.

[albertthiel]

They look great sitting unused in my reef cabinet.