Nothing Good Happens Fast In A Reef Tank

[mcarroll]

Is "Going Slow" the most controversial reefing topic?

I could be wrong, but I presume everyone has heard the old reefer's motto:
 

"Nothing good happens fast in a reef tank."

I don't know who said it first*, but they were dead on.

So how is it that, regardless of experience or circumstance, we all still seem to have tanks that are already full of fish (and usually corals too) within six months or a year when we are newbs?

And why is it that when the "go slow" thing is brought up that we all seem to think we're going as slow as possible "because I see everyone else doing it this way"?

Lastly, why is it that we don't connect our poor results (sick fish, etc) up with our disregard of this rule?

I don't get it.  Do you?

I know there are folks who do go slow...you are exceptions that prove the rule. It would be great if some of you would share your experiences.

 

* The saying predates me, BTW, and I "got in" around 1990.

[mitten_reef]

I wouldn't have checked anything at all....but I didn't read any reefing books, still haven't.  I got all my "good info" in tiny bits on NR here, or featured articles on Reef Hobbyist Magazines, or Advanced Aquarists for any specific subjects I want to learn more about.  

 

PS. I don't think it's the books that matter, it's the reader ability to comprehend what you've read means a lot more.  I do have some unfair head starts as I did my undergrad in chem/biochem, so all the reef chemistry and biology talks are easy to pick up for me.      

 

anyway, I hope this topic sheds some lights on the fast-reef trends.  

[Prezpreston]

TBH, it really has been that above quoted adage that has kept me, as a new reefer, from going crazy.

 

When I was in my initial research mode for about 6-8 months before I ever got a FOWLR tank, and then reef tank, I kept coming across that saying over and over again in countless threads across all forums - take it slow.

 

I think there are two other factors at play that have really contributed to my going slowly as well - financially and ethically.

 

Financially, I am definitely constrained from blowing out my tank with super duper crazy livestock and upgrading every month to a bigger, badder tank. That is partially due to means, and partially due to really keeping a budget and sticking to it.

 

Ethically, I really do value the life that I am fostering inside these tanks - down to the lil' bristleworms (ok, maybe not THAT much). Not to get weird and/or philosophical, but I do think we as reefers have a responsibility to the life that we decide to raise in these tanks. Thankfully, this is an exception rather than a rule, but I've definitely been dismayed by some of the cavalier attitudes displayed towards livestock that I've seen on other forums (not here). So, I've been extremely careful not to stock up too quickly and risk really stressing and/or killing my dudes and dudettes that live in my tank.

[aclman88]

16 hours ago, mitten_reef said:

PS. I don't think it's the books that matter, it's the reader ability to comprehend what you've read means a lot more.

I tend to agree with this.  I bought a couple books by Albert Thiel and read through one of them and skimmed through the other.  Mostly, I found it interesting to see how the hobby has progressed in the last 20-30 years, but most of the information I had already known from researching online or asking questions of more experience members on forums.  Also, a lot of the material was dated.  I am sure books are invaluable, and I do see their place, it would be nice if there were some more up to date books floating around.  I know @mcarroll posted a thread about reading (which is where I first learned about Thiel) and definitely had other options I have yet to check out.  Not slamming books by any means, since they serve an important purpose, but I would much rather read through an article by Randy-Holmes Farley to better understand the chemistry of a reef tank which, in my opinion, is one of the most important aspects of understanding our tiny ecosystems.  His write up on water changes as a means to replace or reduce nutrients was pretty eye opening to the important of dosing vs consistent smaller water changes.  

 

17 hours ago, Prezpreston said:

Financially, I am definitely constrained from blowing out my tank with super duper crazy livestock and upgrading every month to a bigger, badder tank. That is partially due to means, and partially due to really keeping a budget and sticking to it.

This is me.  It is also the reason I went with a pico reef to start.  Smaller meant cheaper to start up and easier to maintain.  Doing it cheaply also helped me to scratch my DIY itch to try things like building my own ATO @ajmckay using an automotive relay, make my own media baskets for an AC 20, and now frosting a background via lighting a la @Tigahboy and @ef4life.  I like to think that if money and space were no option I would set up one of those awesome reefs with all the bells and whistles, but I would lose out on a lot of the problem solving and tinkering I really enjoy with my current, bare-bones setup.  Also, upgrading and tinkering is a lot of fun for me. 

 

18 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Is "Going Slow" the most controversial reefing topic?

Not sure that it is the most controversial, but probably the most difficult to follow.  The beauty of forums like this is the ability to learn and share with hobbyists you would never meet in person. The downside is that newbies, like myself, see these amazing tanks and sometimes fail to take into account that most of them took months and years of setup to be what they are, and often times are backed by years of experience and failures.  I follow @jservedio's 20 gallon and am always blown away when I see it.  It helps to remember he has been running that tank for almost a decade.

 

Thanks for this post and poll.  Sorry if I went a little overboard with the tagging, just want to give shout outs to people who have really been helpful, whether or not they knew it.  

[jservedio]

I definitely get it - I think it all just comes down to excitement in the beginning - almost everyone who gets carried away in the beginning spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on equipment they don't need, livestock they have no hope of caring for, and way, way too many fish in a tank that is far to small is building their very first tank.

 

They spend hours on here researching and reading and seeing all of the very mature, beautiful tanks in the ToTM library and they want that ASAP. They put together what they think is a solid plan because they've seen tons of other new reefers do it on here "successfully" in their build threads (that all mysteriously just disappear after a year or so) and think they are on the right path.

 

Nobody wants to admit they are wrong publicly, so instead of updating their thread after a couple years and saying "those 5 fish in my 10g tank are getting so big now that nutrient export is impossible and the huge fluctuations from the 50% daily water changes killed off the 26 acro frags I bought, that was a huge mistake. Here is what I'm doing to fix the situation..." they just give up and quit the hobby or start over. Maybe they learned their lesson and the new build is done correctly (or maybe not), but the old build thread is never updated or deleted and newcomers somehow dig up these build threads thinking it was successful because it was running for a year or two before totally crashing and burning.

[mitten_reef]

16 minutes ago, jservedio said:

I definitely get it - I think it all just comes down to excitement in the beginning - almost everyone who gets carried away in the beginning spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on equipment they don't need, livestock they have no hope of caring for, and way, way too many fish in a tank that is far to small is building their very first tank.

 

They spend hours on here researching and reading and seeing all of the very mature, beautiful tanks in the ToTM library and they want that ASAP. They put together what they think is a solid plan because they've seen tons of other new reefers do it on here "successfully" in their build threads (that all mysteriously just disappear after a year or so) and think they are on the right path.

 

Nobody wants to admit they are wrong publicly, so instead of updating their thread after a couple years and saying "those 5 fish in my 10g tank are getting so big now that nutrient export is impossible and the huge fluctuations from the 50% water changes killed off the 26 acro frags I bought, that was a huge mistake. Here is what I'm doing to fix the situation..." they just give up and quit the hobby or start over. Maybe they learned their lesson and the new build is done correctly (or maybe not), but the old build thread is never updated or deleted and newcomers somehow dig up these build threads thinking it was successful because it was running for a year or two before totally crashing and burning.

100% agree with this. There are way too many “awesome” setups that came and went, and many never got updated on the failure or success.  Many of them overly focused on the set up ,ie as many bells and whistles as they could afford, and less so on biology and chemistry of it all as well.  And I’ve been on NR relatively short time (6-7 years browsing, ~5 yrs with journal). 

[Snow_Phoenix]

I love fish a little too much. 😞

 

All that motion in my tank actually keeps me calm. And helps me focus/rest better. It's difficult to explain. 

[ef4life]

I try to live by going slow, but I added to the poll that I use 

 

dry rock

products to avoid algae

i add lots of coral at once

and shop online

 

But even though I do that I never feel I’m rushing Things, i never had any major issues either. Dry rock imo is the long way to do it, it takes a few years for the tank to really mature but imo it’s worth it for the pest free nature and ease of aqua scaping a dry tank. Seeing the rock turn from bright white to brown, green, then purple and pink is cool. 

 

I use vibrant when needed, it’s a great product and really works. It helps control algae which is great in a small tank where you can’t ethically have a bunch of herbivores that graze all day long. It’s possible to overdo it but, it’s worth it if you go with the small proper dosages and don’t try to rush the process. Ime it does lower nitrate and phosphates too so it’s something to watch.

 

the last two - add a lot of corals at once and shop online. Shopping online is great for selection and you can get some great deals but you have to buy in bulk to really save money to get the free shipping. Going local is great and I do that too, but your potentially limited in selection. As long as your tank is mature enough for coral, buying 6-12 corals at a time isn’t a big issue, 6-12 fish would be.

 

i will say the only tank I feel i have ever really rushed is my 365 pico - dry rock, coral, and a fish all in a month. I started it with a piece of established rock and the rest all dry, it’s getting into it’s ugly phase now. I feel the competition rush causes a lot of us to rush things we normally wouldn’t, but a lot of us competitors already are experienced and we can do that a little more ethically.

[jservedio]

I thought I'd use this opportunity to go back and updated my retired and abandoned build threads with some lessons and the failures I made in them. Anyone who's been on this site for a while should go back and do the same since it'll only help newcomers.

 

If you have the opportunity, go back and update those threads where you had short term success followed by some failure, a total crash, or had to drastically change your thinking. Help people setting up their first tank see what happens when they make all the mistakes you did instead of them using these old build threads as a justification to argue with you about how everything is going to work out this time for them!

 

I am definitely one of the people on here who advocates heavily for not using any filtration in a mature system and not relying on any equipment (other than an ATO) to run your tank. I have no filtration whatsoever in my 20g tank. But, it wasn't always that way - I was the guy who went out and spend thousands on equipment: two reactors, a big skimmer, 3-head doser, pH monitor, salinity monitor, ORP monitor, filter socks, macro tumbler in the sump and had nothing but problems due to lack of nutrients and obscene complexity. I learned from my mistake and am not afraid to admit I wasted a ton of money and lost a ton of time worth of growth from having starved corals, dinos, and chrysophytes. Look no further than my thread from 7 years ago for my current 20g.

 

I learned from that so much when I made my pico - but guess what? Still made plenty of mistakes there, too. Want to see some mistakes to avoid when building a pico, but also see some success?

 

Consider doing the same with your old threads instead of just abandoning them because you were embarrassed you made big mistakes, wasted a ton of money, or just had to start over.

[Prezpreston]

5 hours ago, jservedio said:

Nobody wants to admit they are wrong publicly, so instead of updating their thread after a couple years and saying "those 5 fish in my 10g tank are getting so big now that nutrient export is impossible and the huge fluctuations from the 50% daily water changes killed off the 26 acro frags I bought, that was a huge mistake. Here is what I'm doing to fix the situation..." they just give up and quit the hobby or start over. Maybe they learned their lesson and the new build is done correctly (or maybe not), but the old build thread is never updated or deleted and newcomers somehow dig up these build threads thinking it was successful because it was running for a year or two before totally crashing and burning.

 

6 hours ago, aclman88 said:

The downside is that newbies, like myself, see these amazing tanks and sometimes fail to take into account that most of them took months and years of setup to be what they are, and often times are backed by years of experience and failures.  I follow @jservedio's 20 gallon and am always blown away when I see it.  It helps to remember he has been running that tank for almost a decade.

So incredibly helpful to look at these incredible tanks in such a way. Years and years of work - these things didn't happen overnight!

 

Kudos to you all for posting your experiences in this thread; as a newbie reefer, it's really heartening to understand that everyone experiences setbacks in some way or another - that's definitely not a typical thing you read about on forums.

 

Time to start a "This Was My Biggest Reefing Mistake" thread? lol!

[mcarroll]

On 4/8/2020 at 3:54 PM, mitten_reef said:

I don't think it's the books that matter

16 hours ago, aclman88 said:

I tend to agree with this.

16 hours ago, aclman88 said:

Mostly, I found it interesting to see how the hobby has progressed in the last 20-30 years

 

The books are for the framework of learning that they generally provide.  

 

That and the opportunity to get that perspective you mentioned on history and how the hobby has changed.  

 

That perspective keeps you immune to thinking any one idea is better than it really is (or worse: better than all the rest).

 

When you see how things change it makes you see that you have to question everything, especially the newer ideas.

 

I pretty much always suggest that, to begin with, folks look at a general reference like Martin Moe's Marine Aquarium Handbook Beginner to Breeder as it covers every subject from a base level and with academic competence and completeness.

 

Whatever we think we know about chemistry and whatever we like about any particular modern author, the facts haven't changed...it's only our understanding that's changed.

 

The internet is nice for filling in some of those gaps in understanding, but the internet often brings it's own gaps into the equation.

 

None of the sources stand alone.   Doing so is not the point.  Quite the opposite.  👍

 

Understanding these sources (it helps to read some from across different time periods) is just as much about being able to understand the story they tell as it is about being able to see where the gaps are.

 

If we never get that framework because we focus on all of the great narrow-subject articles online, we're going have hard time distinguishing where those gaps are.

 

And for framework, even a 160 year old book like Phillip Gosse's "Marine Aquarium Handbook" can serve pretty well.  I think it still stands as one of the best aquarium books I've read.  He was a great author with TONS of experience in the field and he quite literally had to do everything from sratch/DIY.  Amazing.

 

The only way you get framework like that "from the internet" is (e.g.) from an eBook of Moe's book or a PDF of that ancient Handbook by Gosse.  Still books.  😉

 

So I think it really is about the books.  (A book is no good at all without a reader of course, and if that's your point then I agree with you both.)

 

But understanding is what you get from books more than it is something that you bring to them.  Gotta read, and read a lot to really do it right.

 

BTW, I can't speak directly to anything in the Theil books you mentioned...wish I had any of them but unlike Moe's books, Theil's are rare.  

 

I'd love for you to drop some quotes from that or any book into the book thread you linked earlier to generate some discussion around his books.  

 

When I first got online and book reading was more prevalent among the online crowd, threads about things folks read in books were pretty co`mmon....even more common than YouTube video posts are today.  Would be great for that trend to have a comeback.  For me, anyway.  LOL

 

16 hours ago, aclman88 said:

His write up on water changes as a means to replace or reduce nutrients was pretty eye opening to the important of dosing vs consistent smaller water changes.

That article underlines the value of water changes period...whether you do them big or small.  He explains why they work, and what it takes for water changes to have the same effect either way.  Definitely a good one.  Very complete on that subject.  👍

 

12 hours ago, ef4life said:

Dry rock imo is the long way to do it, it takes a few years for the tank to really mature but imo it’s worth it for the pest free nature and ease of aqua scaping a dry tank.

IMO, it depends why you're using dry rock.  I.e. There's a difference between "taking your time" and "doing things the hard way".

 

So...

 

If you're doing dead rock because you think you're avoiding pests, then you're using it as a shortcut.

 

If you're dong dead rock because it's so cheap, then you're using it as a shortcut.

 

LOTS of people use dead rock for those two reasons.

 

I don't hear much at all of other reasons, though I know there's a minority of folks out there "thinking different" and using dry rock.  Due emphasis needs to go on "minority" though.  It's a tiny, almost imperceptible minority relative to the masses of dead rock users who end up with Dino tanks, etc.

 

If you're really doing it for the experience of creating live rock from scratch, then I get it.  Totally worth the extra year or two of development time up front before you start stocking your tank in earnest.  It would be an amazingly educational experience.

 

But I can count on my hands the number of people I've seen take this approach with any level of seriousness.  

 

Not too surprising:  It would be very expensive and extremely time-consuming compared to live rock, and there's no clear indication that you'd be successful in emulating live rock at the end.  It would be a real experiment!  

 

Taking this strategy would kill two of the MAIN reasons that make people choose dead rock to begin with:  cheap and fast to start up as a bio-filter.

 

Most who talk about why they chose dead rock don't even seen to understand that live rock is more than just an ammonia reducing filter like an under gravel filter.  🤦‍♂️ 

 

No books, no history.  

 

No history, no perspective.  

 

No perspective and dead rock looks like The Latest Thing.

 

Rather than the re-hashed mistake from past that it really is.

 

Look through posts from the late 1990's and early-2000's for references to "base rock" and "aragocrete".  There is a real tradition and real history where stuff like dead rock fits in.  It's not a replacement for live rock though.  (It's the opposite of live rock!)

[pmang6]

I want to offer my opinion here, but I can't really back it up with anything but about a decade of reading about the hobby online and in magazines. I do not have a successful tank I can show you to give my point weight, but I can tell you that there a few recurring themes that I've picked up on in my years of reading: stability and patience.

 

It seems like you can find a dissenting opinion on just about anything on this hobby, for each person that likes or has found success with whatever it is, product, method, livestock, philosophy, there is another person who has had a terrible experience with it. The exceptions to that rule are stability and patience. I have never, outside of commercial marketing, seen another reefer genuinely argue against those two principles. There is no one who isnt trying to sell you something that will tell you that you can set up a thriving reef tank overnight.

 

It seems obvious and self evident, but you see people, including myself, completely lose sight of those ideas regularly. Even if you think you are making changes for the better, screwing with things all the time without waiting to see how each change plays out is just going to leave you more confused than you were before.

[DISQUALIFIED-QQ]

I absolutely believe that fishkeeping overall is art form and science blended into one. More or less, it can be fair to say its art form based on some science.

 

I'm going to get really meta here but I think fish tanks are all (trying) to do one thing the same: support whatever has been handed to it.

'

Fishkeeping feels like a tangled Texas interstate interchange because we're all trying to reach a similar goal and we all have different ways to hack it whether it is based on experience or classical training. This makes good art. There's a mantra in the hobby that all tanks are different in their own way. I think that's certainly true as not all tanks are placed in the same room at the same time and receive the same level of attention. There's tons of variables both biotic and abiotic inside and outside of the aquarium that will differ. That manifests in the your mileage may vary concept. To me variability makes sense if we're directly comparing one data point to another. I probably wouldn't look for heavy variability over a swath of data points (personal minimum is 3 because I remember an odd 3 to 300 rule from my biostats class). At the end of the day we're left with a ton of opinions, which isn't a bad thing. I think if we're correctly sourcing information we will see general trends to "take it slow" or whatever reigning truth is taking hold. Feels like jazz.

 

But where's the science in all this? I don't think fishkeeping makes great science. Period. Do not try changing my mind. The aforementioned variables make it hard to create direct comparisons from my tank to yours. We end up engaging the you're wrong and I'm right conversation because our lived experiences are different. For me, I can see that methods can be followed to a certain extent, but are my results repeatable? Fishkeeping will make decent science. Why? It's still a human endeavor. We have a core hypothesis we're testing: Will it live in my tank successfully? (ooooo subjective conditional statement more on that later). It also follows the same evolutionary developmental trends because at the end of the day we're all trying something to be fruitful in our own endeavors.

 

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ffs then what's good science?

My undergraduate advisor taught at least three or four of my courses over my undergrad career, so on top of seeing her about once a year average I also swung by her office to shoot the shit and ask questions about school in general. I do remember her saying that science is an endeavor to seek truth. Science is people testing a hypothesis and making observations and creating a conclusion about the guess you made earlier. Bonus points if you share your experiences with people around you so that they can either go with what you say or follow the same test method and try to see if similar results will manifest. Why do we make hypotheses? Because something caught our interest. Here's the critical thing: that test you made for yourself better be repeatable. Repeatability is major to science. You can't make this stuff up.

 

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well if you repeat something so much can't you just accept it as fact or in what you said true?

UGH, this probably frustrates me more than anything on how the public treats science. My opinion on how the public sees sciences are that they are monolithic gods. They're not.

Scientific opinion changes. Someone publishes a paper, Someone else can refute it with another paper or review. Someone else can rebut with another paper, review, or talk. There are some facts that are based on general acceptance, but be prepared for any inquiry if it arrives. Honestly, anything is up for grabs for a paradigm shift. At one point we thought Earth shrinking explains geological activity (you know earthquakes and stuff like that), but now we think its tectonic plate action. Who knows? The next great theory is around the corner. Theories are a little long for me to explain, but the capsulized definition is that a tested hypothesis has been generally accepted by the scientific community and published out there in the wild world.

 

Inquiry is one of the main drivers of making sure the conclusions we make are streamlined. @mcarroll just said this:

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Whatever we think we know about chemistry and whatever we like about any particular modern author, the facts haven't changed...it's only our understanding that's changed.

Which is totally true! Remember that we're just investigating and interpreting results based on a test or phenomenon that is already happening. Who said we were reading it right or wrong?

 

The message for you is this: Be careful and don't be tempted to create your hypothesis to be automatically true if it works out for you. You can only disprove a hypothesis, never ascertain it or prove it. What you can do is reject a null hypothesis (meaning everything that I though was interesting was based on random chance) or fail to reject it (there could be something neat here).

 

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please make it stop.

I'm sorry, but I need to keep going to bring it back home.

 

Hopefully, as you were reading you might have been connecting the scientific bases from what I said to what we actually do here on the reef hobby side. In our own application, we have forums like the one we have here and others that kind keeps information in line. I'm pretty grateful for BRS and other video sources that make information accessible. I do get excited when BRS tries to empirically test a product or a mantra we have in the hobby. It's a brilliant piece of work. I would like to see reefers on high budgets or other aquarium firms actually take BRS methods and test them and see and compare results. Man, I'd pay to see that.

 

Every reefkeeper has their formed opinion based on their tank, their experience, and their reasoning. It's not wrong. It just is what it is. What is wrong is how exuberant and how overconfident that formed opinion is. As long as we're not being overlords then I think we can go about our business. However the body of experiences should be some way to guide new and less experienced keepers in the right path. Now, it's up to them in how they handle the consensus. I have no problem with people disagreeing or simply not listening. I only ask that people just see it for what it is, an opinion, and try not to react excessively to it. I am pained however to know a potential negative outcome (dead fish, green water, etc) may be waiting for them at the door. I think as long we as follow the general trends of fish keeping (to name a basic few: establishing a nitrogen cycle, doing regular water changes, feeding a proper diet, and maintaining proper environmental conditions) we should be in the clear.

 

I'm going to be honest here I actually don't like giving out my opinion anymore because I've come to realize that tanks can manifest differently. I may have imposter syndrome, but the rationale is that my opinion is certainly refutable and worth inquiry. I try to word my opinions in a way where I sound less sure or if anything show there's room for doubt and wiggling around. They're purposefully worded that way because I know there's a nonzero chance that my methods may not be repeatable, so it can be safe to assume that results will really vary. Let's face it. Not everyone is getting the same RODI water from the same Whole Foods on Rockville Pike on the same day and time with same weather conditions with the same [insert variable here].  Heck, salt batches vary too. My batch of IO Reef Crystals may differ from someone else's. So you see, there are some elements outside of our control. If anything, be graceful in the opinions and experiences you share. Don't weaponize. The joy of sharing our experiences is so that everyone learns and other people can be spared from potential heartaches and mishaps, and be a little more efficient in our decision making. Emphasis on little. Keep doing your research.

 

...so I have a "fast" reef.

 

I am grateful for you guys bouncing information around. I think that's the challenge to fishkeeping in general is that there's much to learn and understand. In some ways, that has accelerated the process of a reef tank surely. Technologies progress. Understanding progress. What may be slow now may have been fast back then. I'll be honest. My aquarium was kinda breakneck speed. But I think I had a long time coming for it. If I had a politically correct term for my aquarium it would be: cruelly efficient. If anything I did do some reading. My journal has a bibliography.

 

For me, I felt like I too like mitten_reef had a head start. I don't think my degree gave me an edge on just knowing enough background information, but rather asking questions and knowing where to look for answers. I admit I have a bit of a cheat code where I have a recording of a lecture back in 2014 on coral reef communities when I was finishing up my senior year (this also included the powerpoint and the research papers attached with the lectures). Quite the convenience, but not a substitute of learning how to keep a tank running. Proficiency is a sliding scale. I was talking with Dave Lin at Reef eScape and he asked me a question of "where do you fall in the line of expertise?" Considering it as a linear scale I said I wasn't sure. I did acknowledge there was definitely someone more adept and knowledgeable than me. However, I definitely knew I wasn't a rookie. 6 years and counting has to mean for something right? I also had the opportunity with work with the best in the public aquarium realm too. I feel incredibly blessed to have that under my belt. The Ryukyu Shallows came about fast, but I don't regret it. I do have to say my pacing felt natural. I did not feel like I was in a rush. I think based on experience you end up automating decisions.

 

Now, my tank isn't complete yet. I may have maxed out on fish, but for corals there are actually a few pieces to finally complete the stock list. I want to add a couple easier SPS frags as a real test. Right now it is a rewarding experience; (and my wife loves having something to look at while she's working remotely on the coffee table as we speak BONUS POINTS!). (Shameless plug to like comment and subscribe to my journal here)

 

At the end of the day, I don't know if I went fast or slow. I do know there are eyes out there that have formed an opinion whether or not I have.

 

I'm probably not done with writing this post, so subsequent updates will come in later.

 

If you're curious on my responses to the poll:

• CaribSea Life Rock was used
• I used Bio-Spira and a dead silverside to rot.

• 6 Day Regimen of Chemiclean

• 2 Weeks of Fluconazole

• The week I bought tons of coral, some from LiveAquaria and some from Fintastic (local)

I did learn that chemicals really do work holy crap. However I think I saw a coral reef microbe paper that @mcarroll posted on reef2reef and I read through the entire thing and I got really enlightened on ecology on the microbial scale, so I was thinking how Vibrant works and I think there's a connection between what the paper investigated and what that product can do.

 

 

But you know what's really fast? The customers that come in at work and whip a tank (of less than 10 gallons in capacity) kit together one day and add water then subsequently add fish the next day.

 

BIG FREAKING YIKES.

this is the part where I end up grilling a lot of people and I have to quickly school them in the nitrogen cycle.

 

[jservedio]

59 minutes ago, Diamonds x Pearls said:

I'm going to be honest here I actually don't like giving out my opinion anymore because I've come to realize that tanks can manifest differently. I may have imposter syndrome, but the rationale is that my opinion is certainly refutable and worth inquiry. I try to word my opinions in a way where I sound less sure or if anything show there's room for doubt and wiggling around. They're purposefully worded that way because I know there's a nonzero chance that my methods may not be repeatable, so it can be safe to assume that results will really vary. Let's face it. Not everyone is getting the same RODI water from the same Whole Foods on Rockville Pike on the same day and time with same weather conditions with the same [insert variable here].  Heck, salt batches vary too. My batch of IO Reef Crystals may differ from someone else's. So you see, there are some elements outside of our control. If anything, be graceful in the opinions and experiences you share. Don't weaponize. The joy of sharing our experiences is so that everyone learns and other people can be spared from potential heartaches and mishaps, and be a little more efficient in our decision making. Emphasis on little. Keep doing your research.

 

...so I have a "fast" reef.

I will say this - while the journey for a reef tank is going to be different for everyone due to the immense number of variables involved and the fact that we are dealing with thousands of species, the "end point" of a reef is going to invariably be the same: everything will eventually reach equilibrium with consistency. What most of us who have been in this hobby for a long time try to make clear is that you simply can't speed up time and you can't cheat the basic chemistry of life for very long. Not every starting point and routine is going to lead to an equilibrium that is conducive to keeping coral and fish alive.

 

That equilibrium will take many, many years to reach and changes to your system will upset that balance. Some of the species that may establish themselves as major part of the food web in your tank will take years to reach a somewhat stable population and the conditions for them to even begin to thrive may not take place for many years (things like tunicates).

[Oldfishwife]

I do have to admit to one thing; buying corals too quickly. Not online, though. We've been blessed with a very nice lfs only 30 minutes from home. He carries lots of frags in the $20-30 range and frequently has sales with $10 and sometimes $5 frags. It's hard to resist. I've only lost 1 and that was due to me stupidly trying to remove it from its rock. I really messed it up and it receded and didn't survive. But all of those frags quickly filled the tank because they grew fast. We've slowed down and been more patient now that we've moved into a larger tank. 
 

we've also been much more patient than we were 20 years ago when we would go for the biggest corals we could find. We now enjoy buying tiny frags and watching them grow out. We've also gotten much better about keeping our bioload low, too. Though I confess I'm itching to buy a couple of Bangaii Cardinals for our 20 gal. We already have a Springeri Damsel, a Tail Soit Benny and a purple Firefish so a pair of Cardinals would be pushing it. I might talk myself into just 1. 🙄
 

I read all the books 20 years ago. So much has changed and imho, has gotten much easier. I met and befriended several authors/experts back then, too, who gave me lots of good advice. Ron Shimek and Eric Borneman were especially helpful. Nice guys, I'm sorry I lost touch. Starting up again, I did reviews and read articles online just to remind myself. I really don't miss all the equipment I used to have. 

[Clown79]

 

I think many rush in the  beginning of the hobby because its exciting to start a tank and really not fun watching an empty tank. 

for some they aren't even aware of going slow, some do no research at all. 

 

 

I've rushed some things and nothing catastrophic happened. I've also done some things that I wouldn't recommend because of the issues it caused in the long run

 

I own and have read 0 reef hobby books. 

 

Any information you can get in a book can be found online, the old outdated info and up to date information

 

It's easily accessed, you can get direct information on a specific subject and it's free.

 

 

 

 

 

[debbeach13]

I think maybe I have had too many tanks to answer those questions. I don’t think think any 2 started or ended the same. My first tank there was no internet I absolutely read books and relied on my LFS. I had dealt with Lowell Aquariums and the owner Mike for years while keeping fresh water. Along with other people starting to change over to salt. We sat in the store basement discussing what we read and our tanks for hours. Some times getting stoned. Once we spent hours watching the first sea apple we ever saw. Marveled at the back wall of a tank covered in hair algae thinking it was the coolest ever. I’ve started with dead coral skeletons, live rock left in the tank for months without any thing else purchased or added, live rock and everything else in an upgrade tank size all in one day, dead rock, a combination of both. I hate to admit I have killed fish and coral for rushing, from not having a clue, and for completely unknown unexplained reasons.   Over the years I hope I have learned some lessons but I know I have a lot more to learn. I try to now consider more than ever if I can honestly care for any livestock I purchase. Have a lot of people been able to keep one of these alive? I keep what is said to be or considered easy reef safe items. This makes my reef less than spectacular but I enjoy it and get excited about things I see in my box of water as much as I did with that first coral. I believe in when ever you can buy aqua-cultured live stock. I hope most of get to enjoy your tanks as much as I do. I apologize if this post was off topic but I have been locked up at home a couple months. Happy Reefing. 

[ef4life]

^^^ I remember our first tank, green hair algae on the back wall in all its glory gently flowing in the current. How times have changed 

[banasophia]

Fess up?  Hmm... “nothing good happens fast in a reef tank” is actually my least favorite saying in reefing, whenever I hear it I think “old school”... I think I do pretty much every single thing on that list. 

 

We have... wait for it... science, technology, and modern conveniences... and I like to use them.
 

I use CaribSea Liferock (dry rock), Nutri-Seawater (with beneficial bacteria), BioSpira. My tanks do okay. It’s a good thing there are actually lots of ways to have a successful reef tank. 
 

 

[debbeach13]

I do think one big change in the hobby is that a tank can be cycled so much faster. I also am glad that cycling a tank with a live fish happens much less. Bottled bacteria has really been a game changer. I can't wait to see what's next.

[banasophia]

3 hours ago, debbeach13 said:

I do think one big change in the hobby is that a tank can be cycled so much faster. I also am glad that cycling a tank with a live fish happens much less. Bottled bacteria has really been a game changer. I can't wait to see what's next.

Right... well that’s another thing... you’ll probably see more people putting fish in early with the beneficial bacteria... I add fish about a week after adding the beneficial bacteria.
 

It’s not really the same thing as “cycling with live fish” because you added the bacteria to the tank, you know they are in there... you don’t have to wait for them to populate the tank in the same way you do with a traditional cycle. I don’t add fish the same day I get the tank wet and add the bacteria because I want to make sure my equipment is running properly, by monitoring the temp control, water level control, and initial water testing to be sure there is nothing unexpected with the water/system, but I do add a fish or two early on. The fish waste is the ammonia source, but there are already bacteria in there to process it as they are producing it. 
 

Of course the important thing is to use a beneficial bacteria product that works. I extensively reviewed the beneficial bacteria products before choosing the ones I use, and I use multiple sources so I have a backup in case one was damaged by temperature extremes during transport/storage since some of the products are temperature sensitive. I also use an ammonia badge in my tanks. 

[debbeach13]

I was more referring to adding fish to cycle the tank. The fish poop was why it was done. Then people started talking about the ammonia burning the gills and often the fish died. I cycled a tank with a blue damsel. I did do a soft cycle which takes a lot longer but keeps the ammonia level lower. The damsel was not returned to the store and lived for years. I think you have do a fine job with your tank and caring for your livestock. Please don’t think I am opposed to your method.

[banasophia]

22 minutes ago, debbeach13 said:

I was more referring to adding fish to cycle the tank. The fish poop was why it was done. Then people started talking about the ammonia burning the gills and often the fish died. I cycled a tank with a blue damsel. I did do a soft cycle which takes a lot longer but keeps the ammonia level lower. The damsel was not returned to the store and lived for years. I think you have do a fine job with your tank and caring for your livestock. Please don’t think I am opposed to your method.

Ah thanks for saying that, I didn’t take it in a negative way at all, just pointing it out because I know it’s a general issue now as cycling methods are really in transition due to the new beneficial bacteria products many people are using.
 

Reefers that haven’t come to trust the beneficial bacteria products yet can become very worried and judgmental when they see fish added early on. I see people make all kinds of negative comments to or about new hobbyists who have added beneficial bacteria and added the fish early, or people that post that they are considering it. 
 

The cycling threads in this forum can sometimes become a huge drama, and it makes me really bummed out for the new reefers that happens to. I intentionally didn’t post my first Biocube in here as I first started it up because I knew I was likely to be pounced on. 

[olive]

8 hours ago, banasophia said:

Fess up?  Hmm... “nothing good happens fast in a reef tank” is actually my least favorite saying in reefing, whenever I hear it I think “old school”... I think I do pretty much every single thing on that list. 

 

We have... wait for it... science, technology, and modern conveniences... and I like to use them.
 

I use CaribSea Liferock (dry rock), Nutri-Seawater (with beneficial bacteria), BioSpira. My tanks do okay. It’s a good thing there are actually lots of ways to have a successful reef tank. 

I totally agree. Obviously going slow isn't a bad thing, but there are so many resources nowadays to speed things up. Bottled bacteria used to speed up a cycle isn't a bad thing, neither is dry rock. In the past people didn't set up tanks packed with SPS and other difficult to keep corals because keeping a reef tank was much harder. We should appreciate these modern conveniences instead of bashing them because they make it easier for people to access this hobby. 

[mitten_reef]

1 minute ago, banasophia said:

The cycling threads in this forum can sometimes become a huge drama, and it makes me really bummed out for the new reefers that happens to. 

unfortunately, many times I see these type of posts, new hobbyists can't seem to stick with one specific protocol, regardless of what method it is they're using.  And unlike your case, many didn't consider redundancy in the products they used or how certain products could be compromised during shipment/storage.  To top that off, some aren't ready to listen to advices or provide more details on why/how their process isn't going well.  

Therefore, causing chaos within their own cycling steps AND among the advice givers.   just my 0.02 on the cycling drama.