Oceanarium Imaginarium 80's Slurricane Wonderventure

[Deckoz2302]

Oh ok

[Polarcollision]

My rodi is has a standard activated carbon prefilter, activated carbon isnt agressive enough with the short contact time to break down chloramines into ammonia, nitrogen gas and chlorine which are easily removed by ro membrane and di resin. Catalytic carbon is used in place of activated carbon as it is highly agressive and will break covalent bonds of chloramines by stealing electrons. Without breaking chloramines down they can pass through the ro membrane and di resin. So basically my water source changed and I didn't know it so I've been slowly poisoning my tank for 6 months. Which explains why most of my old coral is fine and the new coral isn't. Because the ols coral has been slowly being poisoned over the course of 6 months where the new coral was basically thrown into a high concentration of poison.

 

Im incredibly sad, this is my fault.

Hey man, nobody calls up their water treatment plant every month to ask if they, by any chance, changed their water treatment methods. Don't be too hard on yourself. Having a good suspect is what you needed to solve the problem and turn the tank around. The best news is that you discovered this before your fish and other corals became susceptible.

[Deckoz2302]

Hey man, nobody calls up their water treatment plant every month to ask if they, by any chance, changed their water treatment methods. Don't be too hard on yourself. Having a good suspect is what you needed to solve the problem and turn the tank around. The best news is that you discovered this before your fish and other corals became susceptible.

 

Yea I know but it should have been one of the first things I checked. Having my own rodi and managing when to change the filters I didn't think about the water supply. I was in my safety bubble of its 0 tds its good to go. :/ but your right. And Markalot was right s well to an extent.

 

I shouldn't be hard on myself, but it was an expensive lesson

 

And markalot was right about ammonia even if undetectable...chloramines are part ammonia. So it may have been causing a continuous cycle ecery time my ato went off. And Clams can die at 0.005ppm of chloramines.

[Felicia]

Hey Brad. This all makes a lot of sense to me. The speaker at my local club's meeting a couple weeks ago was Craig Bingman (aquarium water chemistry expert) and he mentioned this could happen and cause you to be adding ammonia to your tank with your RODI water. I wish I had thought that this could be your issue sooner. He recommended always testing the water for ammonia before adding it to the tank and he recommended using plain old dechlorinator (like seachem Prime) to the water if you're having this issue. At least you may finally know what it is that caused all the issues.

[Felicia]

I wanted to send you this article in case you hadn't seen it:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-11/rhf/feature/index.htm

[metrokat]

Gosh, who would have thought it would be chloramines! It is not your fault, there was no reason to suspect your water source till this problem happened. I'm not sure I could have found out the problem if this happened to me, but you did so kudos to you.

 

Won't running activated carbon in a reactor fix this instead of tearing down the tank? I think you said you already run carbon, would increasing the amount or changing the kind of carbon not fix this?

 

Regarding ammonia, putting a shrimp in the sock while this issue was present may have accelerated the end of those poor corals.

[Deckoz2302]

Gosh, who would have thought it would be chloramines! It is not your fault, there was no reason to suspect your water source till this problem happened. I'm not sure I could have found out the problem if this happened to me, but you did so kudos to you.

 

Won't running activated carbon in a reactor fix this instead of tearing down the tank? I think you said you already run carbon, would increasing the amount or changing the kind of carbon not fix this?

 

Regarding ammonia, putting a shrimp in the sock while this issue was present may have accelerated the end of those poor corals.

I do run carbon now but the entire month I was gone I had taken my carbon reactor offline as I didn't see a need for it. Im sure you guys remember me saying the only thing that changed was I took my carbon reactor offline before I left

 

The ammonium phosphate dosing and then the ammonia from the chloramine ect. I still believe my tank handles them as fast as they are put in. I think its more so the chloramines that weren't being broken down causing this. For the first few months running carbon was probably enough as that broke down the chloramines and released chlorine, ammonia and nitrogen. Chlorine disipates with aeration, ammonia gets used or skimmed. And considering my reactor output goes to the skimmer input the carbon was probably taking care of it all and the skimmer probably purging the chlorine. As well my ato pump dumps right on top of the reactor pump. Crazy.

 

The big waterchages probably didn't help either. Giving me false positive on improving for 3 days then boom go the other sps. It all kinda makes sense.

 

As far as doing them all in towards the end. Imagine a month of chloramines built up enough to take out the clams and sps. Then me adding 2 liters of carbon and suddenly breaking the chlorine and ammonia apart causing a spike of both that aren't handled immediately like the small doses of top off water at a time. I probably caused a huge ammonia spike at the end and didn't realize it because it was gone so fast, I just saw the after effects.

 

This was a very very expensive lesson. I hope no one ever has to go through this.

 

Hey Brad. This all makes a lot of sense to me. The speaker at my local club's meeting a couple weeks ago was Craig Bingman (aquarium water chemistry expert) and he mentioned this could happen and cause you to be adding ammonia to your tank with your RODI water. I wish I had thought that this could be your issue sooner. He recommended always testing the water for ammonia before adding it to the tank and he recommended using plain old dechlorinator (like seachem Prime) to the water if you're having this issue. At least you may finally know what it is that caused all the issues.

Yea I may end up dosing prime from now on as a precautionary measure. Switching my 5 micron carbon filter to a catalytic carbon designed as a chloramines buster. All kinda crazy

[Deckoz2302]

Well since im confident about the problem. New sig with my baby girl

[metrokat]

Aww. Very cute.

[FishDooD65]

awesome, hopefully this will fix your issues! let the progress begin!

[Deckoz2302]

Aww. Very cute.

 

Isn't she? I wub her lol

 

awesome, hopefully this will fix your issues! let the progress begin!

 

Thanks man, kinda how im feeling. Must move forward and create awesome.

[Disher]

First of all, sorry for your loss. These types of events is what shy people away from this hobby. Hang in there!

 

I wanted to chime in on chloramines. Reef keepers running their own RODI systems should expect chloramines. Most municipalities use chloramines as the primary disinfectant. Why? Because with chlorine disinfection, trihalomethanes(THM's) are produced which have been linked to cancer. Chloramines greatly reduce this because ammonia is bound to chlorine reducing the chance of chlorine to interact with organics in the water forming THM's.

 

Good call on contacting the city and asking questions. I suggest everyone look into their local water system to find out what's in their water.

[Deckoz2302]

First of all, sorry for your loss. These types of events is what shy people away from this hobby. Hang in there!

I wanted to chime in on chloramines. Reef keepers running their own RODI systems should expect chloramines. Most municipalities use chloramines as the primary disinfectant. Why? Because with chlorine disinfection, trihalomethanes(THM's) are produced which have been linked to cancer. Chloramines greatly reduce this because ammonia is bound to chlorine reducing the chance of chlorine to interact with organics in the water forming THM's.

Good call on contacting the city and asking questions. I suggest everyone look into their local water system to find out what's in their water.

 

I've hung in this far so no worries lol, thank you for the words. You are right we should all check out the water supply. I did initially 8 months ago when I moved here, as my previous residences have either been chlorine treatment or well water so I made a point to check when I moved. Little did I know 2 months afterwards It would change. In general though I feel as you said now - one should expect chloramines especially if in a larger city. I will always be suggesting that people use an agressive carbon second stage in thier rodi units from now on. As my filters have about 11000 gallons on them(rated for 20000) with my ro outputting 2-3tds and the di outputting 0 tds yet I still get an ammonia and chlorine reading on the rodi water.

 

I get my catalytic carbon on Saturday from brs, but for now im using distilled.

[TheKleinReef]

your new signature is much more uplifting. (;

 

i'm setting up the doser using the info you gave me, still can't say thanks enough! i can't wait to see this tank back on track.

[Polarcollision]

I've hung in this far so no worries lol, thank you for the words. You are right we should all check out the water supply. I did initially 8 months ago when I moved here, as my previous residences have either been chlorine treatment or well water so I made a point to check when I moved. Little did I know 2 months afterwards It would change. In general though I feel as you said now - one should expect chloramines especially if in a larger city. I will always be suggesting that people use an agressive carbon second stage in thier rodi units from now on. As my filters have about 11000 gallons on them(rated for 20000) with my ro outputting 2-3tds and the di outputting 0 tds yet I still get an ammonia and chlorine reading on the rodi water. I get my catalytic carbon on Saturday from brs, but for now im using distilled.

Now this is the kind of thing that makes this community gold. I use dstilled water from the grocery store and am thinking about getting an RODI, so there's a huge learning curve ahead. One guarantee is that I never would have thought about chloramines, assuming the unit was simply complete at making pure water. The more you know.

 

I know you like sticks, but only my montis and zoas are growing. You're welcome to frags, no charge, just shipping. To offset some of your loss and as thanks for the heads up on water quality.

 

P.S. Love the new sig

[markalot]

Yea I know but it should have been one of the first things I checked. Having my own rodi and managing when to change the filters I didn't think about the water supply. I was in my safety bubble of its 0 tds its good to go. :/ but your right. And Markalot was right s well to an extent. I shouldn't be hard on myself, but it was an expensive lesson And markalot was right about ammonia even if undetectable...chloramines are part ammonia. So it may have been causing a continuous cycle ecery time my ato went off. And Clams can die at 0.005ppm of chloramines.

 

 

Bah, I had no idea what you just experienced could be an issue. I mean good grief. I agree that whatever happens usually happens very fast and by the time you notice zombie stage it's too late, and untestable.

 

I have a spectrapure RO/DI and I assumed that the carbon block takes care of everything. I have worried out loud that without what I consider ridiculously complex testing there is no good way to tell when the carbon block goes bad. I just replaced mine with my sediment filter, which was getting clogged. I'm not really clear what chloramine does to the DI filter other than degrade it quickly. I suppose it's possible chloramine could be making it past the DI, but IMO the DI would degrade so quickly you might only get a few batches of 0 TDS water before it started to climb.

 

This article deals with a spectrapure filter directly: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-11/rhf/feature/

 

I forget what salt you use, but don't some have de-chlorinators built into the salt? I know Prime will remove them. Some quick searches show that at least some mixes either advertise or are thought to have them as part of the mix:

 

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=306570

 

According to IO they have never had a dechlorinator in their products.

[gena]

My rodi is has a standard activated carbon prefilter, activated carbon isnt agressive enough with the short contact time to break down chloramines into ammonia, nitrogen gas and chlorine which are easily removed by ro membrane and di resin. Catalytic carbon is used in place of activated carbon as it is highly agressive and will break covalent bonds of chloramines by stealing electrons. Without breaking chloramines down they can pass through the ro membrane and di resin. So basically my water source changed and I didn't know it so I've been slowly poisoning my tank for 6 months. Which explains why most of my old coral is fine and the new coral isn't. Because the ols coral has been slowly being poisoned over the course of 6 months where the new coral was basically thrown into a high concentration of poison.

 

Im incredibly sad, this is my fault.

This is incredibly sad but incredibly enlightening for all of us. I'll have to look into that more. Love the new sig

[Giga]

DUDE just read through your thread-really awesome and really heatbreaking all at the same time. It's like the Game of Thrones Red Wedding

[Deckoz2302]

your new signature is much more uplifting. (;

 

i'm setting up the doser using the info you gave me, still can't say thanks enough! i can't wait to see this tank back on track.

 

Thanks Roger. Still let me know if you need a hand bro

 

Now this is the kind of thing that makes this community gold. I use dstilled water from the grocery store and am thinking about getting an RODI, so there's a huge learning curve ahead. One guarantee is that I never would have thought about chloramines, assuming the unit was simply complete at making pure water. The more you know.

 

I know you like sticks, but only my montis and zoas are growing. You're welcome to frags, no charge, just shipping. To offset some of your loss and as thanks for the heads up on water quality.

 

P.S. Love the new sig

 

Yea it's an unfortunate heads up but I'm glad this will teach more than just me. I sincerely appreciate the gesture of sending me some corals, but I want to get some good soak time with this and make sure everybody is doing good - as well I was so ready to break down the tank that I will be building a new stand as the one from deep blue is a POS. So I don't really wanna take anything else on/in until I dilly dally swap stands. Either way - thank you as people like you are what also make this forum gold

 

 

 

Bah, I had no idea what you just experienced could be an issue. I mean good grief. I agree that whatever happens usually happens very fast and by the time you notice zombie stage it's too late, and untestable.

 

I have a spectrapure RO/DI and I assumed that the carbon block takes care of everything. I have worried out loud that without what I consider ridiculously complex testing there is no good way to tell when the carbon block goes bad. I just replaced mine with my sediment filter, which was getting clogged. I'm not really clear what chloramine does to the DI filter other than degrade it quickly. I suppose it's possible chloramine could be making it past the DI, but IMO the DI would degrade so quickly you might only get a few batches of 0 TDS water before it started to climb.

 

This article deals with a spectrapure filter directly: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-11/rhf/feature/'>http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-11/rhf/feature/

 

I forget what salt you use, but don't some have de-chlorinators built into the salt? I know Prime will remove them. Some quick searches show that at least some mixes either advertise or are thought to have them as part of the mix:

 

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=306570'>http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=306570

 

According to IO they have never had a dechlorinator in their products.

 

Its kind of crazy right? I never expected something lime this to be the problem either. Its unfortunate that the one thing I changed (removed carbon reactor) is the thing that was keeping this from happening.

 

As well I use Red Sea Coral Pro salt and I do not beleive it has a dechlorinator in it. Mark as much as I hated when you said ammonia I appreciate that you were on the right track.

 

This is incredibly sad but incredibly enlightening for all of us. I'll have to look into that more. Love the new sig

 

Sucks but what can I do? I was following manufacturer specs. But the activated carbon prefilters aren't designed for ling term chloramine busting. As a poster said above - expect chloramines and use an aggressive catalytic carbon prefilter. Ill be testing my rodi atleast once a month for total chlorine and ammonia now. I suggest others should as well

 

DUDE just read through your thread-really awesome and really heatbreaking all at the same time. It's like the Game of Thrones Red Wedding

 

Lol I know. Im sure you can imagine how my wife and I felt sitting in front of the tank every day like what could be wrong we've tested for everything....little did we know we hadn't. But yes your right we felt accomplished in the awesome setup and built a coral thrown..then watched ir fall apart. Ill get it back on track, love this hobby to much to give up learning.

 

 

Everyone you guys are awesome for putting up with me, and giving me shit and trying to give me ideas even if they didn't help. But BattleAthletica you are the freaking man. :fist bump:

 

Ps I love my new sig too lol

[ZephNYC]

NYC tap is VERY high in chloramine...I can taste it. My Ro unit incorperates 2 sediment filters, first one 5 microns, second one 1 micron, then I run TWO carbon blocks, then DI, then a silicate buster. My pinpoint water hardness meter reads the resulting water @ DEAD ZERO. However, after a half hour of it sitting/collecting in my basement that reading will go up to 4 ppm.

[Deckoz2302]

NYC tap is VERY high in chloramine...I can taste it. My Ro unit incorperates 2 sediment filters, first one 5 microns, second one 1 micron, then I run TWO carbon blocks, then DI, then a silicate buster. My pinpoint water hardness meter reads the resulting water @ DEAD ZERO. However, after a half hour of it sitting/collecting in my basement that reading will go up to 4 ppm.

 

Wow, gow often are you changing your filters?

[ZephNYC]

Wow, gow often are you changing your filters?

THats another thing, In NYC they are CONSTANTLY working on the water ways, especially since they started contracting the new 2nd ave subway system in my neighborhhod. My sediment filters often clog up in as litle as a few days, a month the most. I change those when the pressure goes down in the untit to around 20 psi. I change carbon blocks about every month, and everything else about once per year. Also keep in mind my RO unit has been running for about 8 years without ever being turned off. Friggin Discus man, 50% water changes every 48 hours with 100% RO water.

[specore]

THats another thing, In NYC they are CONSTANTLY working on the water ways, especially since they started contracting the new 2nd ave subway system in my neighborhhod. My sediment filters often clog up in as litle as a few days, a month the most. I change those when the pressure goes down in the untit to around 20 psi. I change carbon blocks about every month, and everything else about once per year. Also keep in mind my RO unit has been running for about 8 years without ever being turned off. Friggin Discus man, 50% water changes every 48 hours with 100% RO water.

 

Note to self...don't drink the water in NYC

[Deckoz2302]

THats another thing, In NYC they are CONSTANTLY working on the water ways, especially since they started contracting the new 2nd ave subway system in my neighborhhod. My sediment filters often clog up in as litle as a few days, a month the most. I change those when the pressure goes down in the untit to around 20 psi. I change carbon blocks about every month, and everything else about once per year. Also keep in mind my RO unit has been running for about 8 years without ever being turned off. Friggin Discus man, 50% water changes every 48 hours with 100% RO water.

 

Holy shit

[Felicia]

I love the new sig! So much less depressing! I'm sorry about everything that happened, but at least you have it all figured out now. I think it sounds like you have a good plan to get it all taken care of.

 

I don't have too many SPS that are big enough to frag, but if you'd like some zoas to repopulate this tank, just let me know and they're yours for just the shipping charge.