albertthiel Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 well, they were happy, pretty, and open when I got home last night did a water change (still fine) then the thing with the filter probably half an hour later, and suddenly everything is unhappy and/or dying. I did another water change after the filter incident, and a small one when I woke up this morning. I also have my light covered in a scarf so that it doesn't shock them more since it's much brighter than the light I had before. the undata is turning white, all of my little pink, purple, and white feather dusters have disappeared (except like 1), I found a dead brittle star so I have no hopes that any others made it, my zoas are trying to open, my hairy (or is it fuzzy? cannot remember what it was called) mushroom just flopped over, my ric is ok, and my "daisy polyps" are trying to come out. I'm so frustrated with all the money I just put into this tank in the past 2 weeks (bought the corals the 20th) and borrowed money for the light. I don't need this to be happening on top of everything else. honestly, there's not much to take pictures of. it's a wreck, and I really don't want to be flashing that about - bad enough that I had to tell people what was wrong :/ I'm thinking fumes and current got in the tank :/ the reason I assumed current was because of the way my brittle stars reacted when it started smoking. they ran for the bottom then hid again the moment I pulled the plug and got the filter out of the water. Well it is difficult to give advice that would for sure solve the issues you are having, but what I would do if I were you is : - remove what you think will not make it - remove that what looks like it may already have died, or is so far gone that it will - look for anything in the tank that may have died but is not visible (may be behind LR or between them etc.) - do a 50% water change today - do another 50 % water change tomorrow ... Hopefully you can do so and get things back to normal, and of course add a new filter. Also check your ammonia and nitrite levels to make sure you do not have a spike of those as that may mean either die-offs or damage done to the biological filter ... If that is the case then the water changes will obviously help but your tank will be going through another cycle, hopefully a mini one. Albert 1 Quote Link to comment
andi.rahl Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Well it is difficult to give advice that would for sure solve the issues you are having, but what I would do if I were you is : - remove what you think will not make it - remove that what looks like it may already have died, or is so far gone that it will - look for anything in the tank that may have died but is not visible (may be behind LR or between them etc.) - do a 50% water change today - do another 50 % water change tomorrow ... Hopefully you can do so and get things back to normal, and of course add a new filter. Also check your ammonia and nitrite levels to make sure you do not have a spike of those as that may mean either die-offs or damage done to the biological filter ... If that is the case then the water changes will obviously help but your tank will be going through another cycle, hopefully a mini one. Albert well, i'm watching the snail, he's been in the same place for a long time, I've accounted for the shrimp and the hermit crab, I took out the one mushroom because I don't think it's going to make it - might as well not have it die and cause more harm like you said. I will do another change after I get some more salt mixed up. I wasn't expecting this to happen when I got home last night. so I only have like a gallon ready right now... should I take out the undata? I'll take a pic of it for you. 2 Quote Link to comment
andi.rahl Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 http://s1289.photobucket.com/user/shinynic/media/IMAG0501_zps55b9a9fd.jpg.html'> T_T It was all pretty when I got home last night so I was happy because everything looked nice! then this :/ so pissed off. 1 Quote Link to comment
albertthiel Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 well, i'm watching the snail, he's been in the same place for a long time, I've accounted for the shrimp and the hermit crab, I took out the one mushroom because I don't think it's going to make it - might as well not have it die and cause more harm like you said. I will do another change after I get some more salt mixed up. I wasn't expecting this to happen when I got home last night. so I only have like a gallon ready right now... should I take out the undata? I'll take a pic of it for you. Yes that seems like the right thing to do but I would take a look at that snail as if it is not moving it may not be in good shape either. And let the new saltwater age for a few hours before adding it ... I will take a look at the pic and let you know ... Really sorry you are having all those issues ... Albert Quote Link to comment
albertthiel Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 T_T It was all pretty when I got home last night so I was happy because everything looked nice! then this :/ so pissed off. I would leave that one and see how it develops as you do the water change. Picture is not very sharp but I think it will be ok from looking at what I see Albert Quote Link to comment
atoll Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Heard it so many times, "My fish were happy and healthy until they got itch" IMO they were clearly not. The poster often qualify their statement by saying "I don't over feed and feed just once a day" (IMO that's not enough to satisfy most of the small coral reef fish we keep) "They swim about and look fine to me" (Hmm does that mean they are happy and healthy? Not in my book it doesn't). They may also state my fish are eating before the outbreak of ick and all my water parameters are spot on. When I suggest these don't necessary add up to fit healthy fish it seems I don't know what I am talking about. These so called happy and healthy fish would be far less likely to get ick or other ailments if their fish were as happy and healthy as they believed them to be. IMO a fish that eats swims about and has reasonable colour does not necessary mean it is happy and healthy before the ick or whatever arrived. I have also read many times similar excuses for keeping fish that are IMO too large or are unsuitable for the size and or type of tank and system being run. Many of these fish that contract disease are being worn down physically and there maybe no outward sign of it. IMO and IME feeding the right foods and regular feeding (I feed 4 times a day) is the main way to keep fish healthy and in a tank more than adequate to house them. I didn't know what I was talking about when I suggested a 25gallon tank was not big enough to house a pair of tomato clowns esp with other fish like a wrasse which was getting bullied by the clowns. Sure water quality is important and yes you have to strike a balance between feeding your fish and water quality but its not impossible to achieve and have both healthy fish and good water quality to keep them in. Food IMO should be offered often in small quantities and regular. Adding lots of food once a day is no substitute for small and regular feeds through the day. Paul explained in an earlier post why this is so I won't repeat it here. Les. 1 Quote Link to comment
andi.rahl Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Yes that seems like the right thing to do but I would take a look at that snail as if it is not moving it may not be in good shape either. And let the new saltwater age for a few hours before adding it ... I will take a look at the pic and let you know ... Really sorry you are having all those issues ... Albert he seems like he's wanting to come out but when I pick him up he hides. so he's probably dying too. goddamn, I had him this whole time. :/ I'm getting ready to mix some water. i will be back I would leave that one and see how it develops as you do the water change. Picture is not very sharp but I think it will be ok from looking at what I see Albert yeah my phone doesn't take the best pics. I tried a bunch of different settings and that was the only one that was close to what I was seeing in person. as for atoll's post, that wasn't aimed at me was it? :S T_T This is my first tank and the issues I've been having, I don't really think they're my fault. it's like my equipment wants to die on me all at once even though most of it is only 6 months old. thank god, I'm getting a filter either tomorrow or saturday (not sure when it's gonna arrive) because I don't want to be mixing saltwater every few days to do changes. 1 Quote Link to comment
albertthiel Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 he seems like he's wanting to come out but when I pick him up he hides. so he's probably dying too. goddamn, I had him this whole time. :/ I'm getting ready to mix some water. i will be back yeah my phone doesn't take the best pics. I tried a bunch of different settings and that was the only one that was close to what I was seeing in person. as for atoll's post, that wasn't aimed at me was it? :S T_T This is my first tank and the issues I've been having, I don't really think they're my fault. it's like my equipment wants to die on me all at once even though most of it is only 6 months old. thank god, I'm getting a filter either tomorrow or saturday (not sure when it's gonna arrive) because I don't want to be mixing saltwater every few days to do changes. Well when you pick up a snail it will retract and close it operculum that small shell-like looking thin plate it uses to keep moisture inside itself so if that is what you see it may still be ok ... not sure what you mean by "he hides" ... Tell me some more about that behavior. And on the coral it may just be "mad" so to speak and not looking as it did. Whether it is OK or not will be apparent after you do a sizable water change ... it should then start to look normal again, but it may take a while for it to do so .. do you see any polyp loss ? And on Les' post ... I do not think that was a response to you but some general observations he has ... based on what I read ... Agreed Phones do not always take the best pics. Same here .. :-o using my iPhone. Albert 1 Quote Link to comment
Paul.b Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 If the snail or anything else stinks really horrible, it is dead and you can throw it out 2 Quote Link to comment
albertthiel Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 If the snail or anything else stinks really horrible, it is dead and you can throw it out Yes for sure indeed ! Albert Quote Link to comment
albertthiel Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Heard it so many times, "My fish were happy and healthy until they got itch" IMO they were clearly not. The poster often qualify their statement by saying "I don't over feed and feed just once a day" (IMO that's not enough to satisfy most of the small coral reef fish we keep) "They swim about and look fine to me" (Hmm does that mean they are happy and healthy? Not in my book it doesn't). They may also state my fish are eating before the outbreak of ick and all my water parameters are spot on. When I suggest these don't necessary add up to fit healthy fish it seems I don't know what I am talking about. These so called happy and healthy fish would be far less likely to get ick or other ailments if their fish were as happy and healthy as they believed them to be. IMO a fish that eats swims about and has reasonable colour does not necessary mean it is happy and healthy before the ick or whatever arrived. I have also read many times similar excuses for keeping fish that are IMO too large or are unsuitable for the size and or type of tank and system being run. Many of these fish that contract disease are being worn down physically and there maybe no outward sign of it. IMO and IME feeding the right foods and regular feeding (I feed 4 times a day) is the main way to keep fish healthy and in a tank more than adequate to house them. I didn't know what I was talking about when I suggested a 25gallon tank was not big enough to house a pair of tomato clowns esp with other fish like a wrasse which was getting bullied by the clowns. Sure water quality is important and yes you have to strike a balance between feeding your fish and water quality but its not impossible to achieve and have both healthy fish and good water quality to keep them in. Food IMO should be offered often in small quantities and regular. Adding lots of food once a day is no substitute for small and regular feeds through the day. Paul explained in an earlier post why this is so I won't repeat it here. Les. Les .. very good points .. am in the midst of getting book orders together for two large wholesalers (East Coast and West Coast) and will comment later if you don't mind as this is an interesting post and also in line with several Paul has posted and I would like to add my own thoughts ... Albert 2 Quote Link to comment
andi.rahl Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Well when you pick up a snail it will retract and close it operculum that small shell-like looking thin plate it uses to keep moisture inside itself so if that is what you see it may still be ok ... not sure what you mean by "he hides" ... Tell me some more about that behavior. And on the coral it may just be "mad" so to speak and not looking as it did. Whether it is OK or not will be apparent after you do a sizable water change ... it should then start to look normal again, but it may take a while for it to do so .. do you see any polyp loss ? And on Les' post ... I do not think that was a response to you but some general observations he has ... based on what I read ... Agreed Phones do not always take the best pics. Same here .. :-o using my iPhone. Albert oh, on hiding: I just meant that he closes the operculum! just ate lunch so I'm gonna give it a bit so I don't get disgusted and lose my lunch if he smells bad XD for the undata, I don't see any polyps out at all. :/ If the snail or anything else stinks really horrible, it is dead and you can throw it out thanks, I'll check. I can't believe that after everything I put into this tank, speaking monetarily, that an equipment failure managed to fry my tank. I can't tell if my little hh bivalves are alive or not :/ would they stay closed or completely open if they died? 1 Quote Link to comment
albertthiel Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 oh, on hiding: I just meant that he closes the operculum! just ate lunch so I'm gonna give it a bit so I don't get disgusted and lose my lunch if he smells bad XD for the undata, I don't see any polyps out at all. :/ thanks, I'll check. I can't believe that after everything I put into this tank, speaking monetarily, that an equipment failure managed to fry my tank. I can't tell if my little hh bivalves are alive or not :/ would they stay closed or completely open if they died? Any update on the snail ? Sounds like it may have been fine if it was able to close its operculum ... And on the coral ... give it some time ... the shock of whatever happened may take time for it to get over it and back to normal. And yes I agree ... one takes perfect care of a tank and then equipment fails .. unfortunately it happens ... not much we can do about it except deal with it as best as we can ... remember when heaters used to stick and overheat our tanks ... seems like you had something similar but with a filter pump and yes with those lights too but that was really due to the power failures. It is upsetting for sure but don't give up .. we all had problems of some sort happen to us ... Albert 2 Quote Link to comment
atoll Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 No it was not aimed at you it was a follow up to a number of posts made by myself, Albert and Paul over the last week or so relating to fish getting diseased and nothing to do with failed items of equipment causing issues sorry if you thought it was. as for atoll's post, that wasn't aimed at me was it? :S T_T This is my first tank and the issues I've been having, I don't really think they're my fault. it's like my equipment wants to die on me all at once even though most of it is only 6 months old. 1 Quote Link to comment
albertthiel Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Heard it so many times, "My fish were happy and healthy until they got itch" IMO they were clearly not. The poster often qualify their statement by saying "I don't over feed and feed just once a day" (IMO that's not enough to satisfy most of the small coral reef fish we keep) "They swim about and look fine to me" (Hmm does that mean they are happy and healthy? Not in my book it doesn't). They may also state my fish are eating before the outbreak of ick and all my water parameters are spot on. When I suggest these don't necessary add up to fit healthy fish it seems I don't know what I am talking about. These so called happy and healthy fish would be far less likely to get ick or other ailments if their fish were as happy and healthy as they believed them to be. IMO a fish that eats swims about and has reasonable colour does not necessary mean it is happy and healthy before the ick or whatever arrived. I have also read many times similar excuses for keeping fish that are IMO too large or are unsuitable for the size and or type of tank and system being run. Many of these fish that contract disease are being worn down physically and there maybe no outward sign of it. IMO and IME feeding the right foods and regular feeding (I feed 4 times a day) is the main way to keep fish healthy and in a tank more than adequate to house them. I didn't know what I was talking about when I suggested a 25gallon tank was not big enough to house a pair of tomato clowns esp with other fish like a wrasse which was getting bullied by the clowns. Sure water quality is important and yes you have to strike a balance between feeding your fish and water quality but its not impossible to achieve and have both healthy fish and good water quality to keep them in. Food IMO should be offered often in small quantities and regular. Adding lots of food once a day is no substitute for small and regular feeds through the day. Paul explained in an earlier post why this is so I won't repeat it here. Les. Thanks Les ... for that explanation and I agree feeding many times is better than just feeding once but not everyone can do that as they may not be at home like you, Paul and myself and others may be, but as I posted earlier, 3 times should be possible. Early in the morning, upon returning home, and shortly before the lights go out, and even after them when feeding corals. And of course as you point out the choice of fishes added to an aquarium can make a great difference in how they all do .. and if the selection is not well thought out and implemented, what you describe may indeed happen ... Thanks ... Albert 1 Quote Link to comment
albertthiel Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Aquarium gets "Grand Designs Treatment" MacDuff Marine Aquarium ... 5 meters deep ... read more here : Link : http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=5630 Albert Quote Link to comment
atoll Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 I have to admit sometimes it is only possible to feed 3 times in a day due to my shift working (I have just completed a 5 hour shift this evening and have just fed my 4th feed of the day) Of course it is not always possible to feed 4 times a day but as you state 3 times should be possible in most cases. I do feel however regular feeding with quality foods is often over looked as a way to help keep our fish healthy and to ward off diseases. I read a lot about cures but little about prevention with most experts recommending quarantining fish for weeks if not months on end. I never quarantine my fish and can't recall the last time I had ick other than in my earlier days of marine fish keeping when it was recommended we only fed 1 or 2 times a day and then mostly with poor quality foods IMO. Les. Thanks Les ... for that explanation and I agree feeding many times is better than just feeding once but not everyone can do that as they may not be at home like you, Paul and myself and others may be, but as I posted earlier, 3 times should be possible. Early in the morning, upon returning home, and shortly before the lights go out, and even after them when feeding corals. And of course as you point out the choice of fishes added to an aquarium can make a great difference in how they all do .. and if the selection is not well thought out and implemented, what you describe may indeed happen ... Thanks ... Albert 1 Quote Link to comment
albertthiel Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Parrot Fish can actually control their Body Temperature Study finds Most fish are assumed not to be able to control their body temperature but ... Link : http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=4878 Albert Quote Link to comment
albertthiel Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 I have to admit sometimes it is only possible to feed 3 times in a day due to my shift working (I have just completed a 5 hour shift this evening and have just fed my 4th feed of the day) Of course it is not always possible to feed 4 times a day but as you state 3 times should be possible in most cases. I do feel however regular feeding with quality foods is often over looked as a way to help keep our fish healthy and to ward off diseases. I read a lot about cures but little about prevention with most experts recommending quarantining fish for weeks if not months on end. I never quarantine my fish and can't recall the last time I had ick other than in my earlier days of marine fish keeping when it was recommended we only fed 1 or 2 times a day and then mostly with poor quality foods IMO. Les. True Les most of what one finds are posts on fish that become diseased and what to do and as you say either treatment methods or quarantining the fish for weeks on end ... Nothing much on how to approach it from a different angle, and in the manner you point out to prevent the fish from ever getting a disease ... I do not QT either but practice the feeding wholesome foods several times a day ... and have not had to deal with ick or other marine diseases either even years and years ago after I figured out at that time that it was not how much or how often we fed, but the quality of the food combined with the frequency ... and as time went on what else we could do to keep our fish in super health. And indeed Paul has pointed that out several times here on this thread and so have you ... that is indeed what more and more hobbyists should indeed do ... Albert Quote Link to comment
atoll Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Its not as if its something amazing or rocket science Albert. Take humans and the food many eat, junk food with so many people over weight and the health problems poor diet brings. All animals are similar poor food, poor feeding = sick animals that are more likey to become diseased. Its not ground bracking or so difficult to fathom out. watch the likes of coral Anthias for instance on the reef constantly pick food out of the water column during daylight hours. Do some of these experts think they know better than nature? There is a saying "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" The right food and the right feeding is prevention. True Les most of what one finds are posts on fish that become diseased and what to do and as you say either treatment methods or quarantining the fish for weeks on end ... Nothing much on how to approach it from a different angle, and in the manner you point out to prevent the fish from ever getting a disease ... I do not QT either but practice the feeding wholesome foods several times a day ... and have not had to deal with ick or other marine diseases either even years and years ago after I figured out at that time that it was not how much or how often we fed, but the quality of the food combined with the frequency ... and as time went on what else we could do to keep our fish in super health. And indeed Paul has pointed that out several times here on this thread and so have you ... that is indeed what more and more hobbyists should indeed do ... Albert 1 Quote Link to comment
albertthiel Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 LRS Reef Frenzy acquires a new Blender ... And a new Food - LRS Nano Several versions of the LRS Reef Frenzy Foods are available from resellers who sponsor this Forum Great food, all natural, and they now even have a special "Nano" one ... I met Larry when I did the Book signing at Pure Reef here in Alpharetta, and observed how fish in several tanks at the store reacted when they were being fed. I have to say .. wow ... The new Blender http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G4g3mq_n3Y&feature=youtu.be And a link to their site with a number of Videos on the food and fish being fed .. http://www.reeffrenzy.com Note this is for information purposes only and I am not being compensated in any way for posting this. Albert 1 Quote Link to comment
albertthiel Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Its not as if its something amazing or rocket science Albert. Take humans and the food many eat, junk food with so many people over weight and the health problems poor diet brings. All animals are similar poor food, poor feeding = sick animals that are more likey to become diseased. Its not ground bracking or so difficult to fathom out. watch the likes of coral Anthias for instance on the reef constantly pick food out of the water column during daylight hours. Do some of these experts think they know better than nature? There is a saying "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" The right food and the right feeding is prevention. Indeed ... +1 on that. I think that having covered feeding so many times that hopefully a larger number of hobbyists will start to follow all the recommendations made by yourself and Paul and others, and if that happens then we can say we have helped those hobbyists and more so than the hobbyists, the livestock they keep and maintain in their reefs and nanos and fish only tanks as there are still those hobbyists around too ... Not sure how many ... at least on this forum. On another forum I had an exchange of a number of messages with one who intends to keep Moorish Idols .. well we'll see how that goes .. I tried to talk him out of it but he is determined to try it so I gave him the best advice I could, and added Paul's recs to it as well (sponge food for the fish even though there is not much of that around besides the Ocean Nutrition Angel Food). Albert 2 Quote Link to comment
albertthiel Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Fish Biodiversity protects Coral Reefs How some Fish eat algae that are toxic to Corals and a lot more ... Video Albert Quote Link to comment
albertthiel Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 Zooxanthellae : Biology and Isolation for Scientific Study © Tim Wijgerde and Advanced Aquarist Magazine Link : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2013/5/corals?utm_source=nivoslider&utm_medium=slider&utm_campaign=clickthru Albert Quote Link to comment
Paul.b Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 I quarantined in about 1979 or so, then I got smart and started to think like a fish and realized that a fishes immune system works in a few different parts of a fish, unlike us. Fish even manufacture antibodies in the glands that produce slime. If the fish doesn't have the correct food, that slime is devoid of antibodies which is why there are so many threads on ich, black ich, white ich, ich, ich, velvet, cordoroy, dropsy, fin rot, diptheria, etc. I wonder why my fish have had none of those things in over 3 decades. I must be the luckiest guy in this hobby because I am not that good looking so I know it is not that. 1 Quote Link to comment
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