THE OFFICIAL ASK ALBERT THIEL THREAD

[albertthiel]

The Sneaky Sneaky Nudi Video .. here it is and then where is it now ?

 

Link :

 

 

 

Albert

[atoll]

Albert, I have to admit there is a pinch of devils advocate in my posts on fish carpet surfing however there is a fair amount of pondering also. I am not saying one fish will never chase another in the darkness but I for one have never witnessed such behaviour esp in an established relatively peaceful tank where all the fish more or less get along with one another.

 

BTW my pearly dartfish continue to do well and stay in the upper layers of the water during daylight hours. I am waiting on a red LED torch so I can do more night time searching of my tank. These Pearly Dartfish are just the type of fish that I would imagine would be more prone to carpet surfing than I would expect from a bottom dwelling burrow living species. Nothing seems to bother these little pearls (pun intended) always out in the open constantly on the move.

 

Even the boss of my tank my Midas blenny takes little more than a passing glance at them. We shall see if I am able to keep them within the four walls of my tank I certainly hope so. One thing I have done is to put a cover on the top of my overflow box just in case they do decide to jump into it. .

Les ... having been in the hobby for as long as you have, you are aware I am sure that this is one of those 64K dollar questions .. but your points above are well taken and I do agree with you that the reasons why some fish are jumpers and why others are not, and why some jump at all is a debate that has been going on for decades ... I do not know of any authoritative research that has been done as IMO it would be way too difficult to set up the circumstances that may lead to jumping and then determine whether a particular fish will actually do so.

 

There are so many possibilities, some of which you mention, and others that no one may even know about that cause the jump.

 

Odd too as you say that fish that are typically bottom dwellers would jump out of the tank as they would have to suddenly exhibit totally different behavior and instead of remaining in the lower parts of the tank, they would have to move to the top and then take the extra step of actually "jumping"

 

So do I have an answer ... I am afraid not. All I can go by is experience about fish that are known jumpers, and some instances where aggression may lead some fish to actually take the leap (pun intended).

 

So I did a little searching on the Net for articles, or sites, that discuss it and I would refer you to this link where you will find a lot of URL's that you can go to (but then I am sure you have already done so).

 

Check this link ... http://tinyurl.com/d2mdoun

 

Not sure it will be of much help in actually determining the causes though, as there are as many opinions as there are hobbyists who have had the issue and have written about it, or have asked others the question.

 

And of course what complicates figuring it out even more is that it happens not only in Nanos but also in large tanks ... so the issue IMO remains unexplained ...

 

Maybe others have some input ?

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

Fish do sleep, but not like us. On my many night dives in total darkness I often startle fish, sometimes large blackfish that are just laying on the bottom against a rock. They take off and sometimes crash into things. A couple of times they crashed into my head knocking off my mask. If these fish were in a tank, they would jump out. I am sure when fish are sleeping on the bottom they get startled by hermit crabs, bristle worms, night feeding fish or just noises outside. It is very noisy in a tank as the sound has 4 sides to reverberate off.

 

Interesting post indeed Paul ... now what happens on the reef may not be what happens in our aquariums, although that is admittedly an assumption on my part (and that is dangerous I know).

 

Why do I say this is an interesting post? Well, as you know, and have seen me post, I have a limited supply of those Critter Red LED's little torches that came in, and so this morning early I decided to take a good look at my tank when the room was dark and outside dark as well.

 

I used the Torch, and went around shining here and shining there, and did see all fish in sleeping mode except for one: the Banggai Cardinal which did not seem to be anywhere near a "sleeping mode", as it was in the middle of the tank (it is a night-active fish so that was normal) and as I shone the red light on it the fish just went about what it was doing ... swim ...

 

The other fish however were all in what you could call a sleeping mode, and when the red light hit them they sort of made what I would call a minimal effort to move, as I guess they did not really "see" it ,or were affected by it at all, but they "were" on the bottom between the rock work and one was actually underneath a rock in a sort of little cavern.

 

I did see some of the life forms I never see during the day, like all my Stomatellas, and discovered a tiny Aiptasia, which I have already zapped with the Majano Wand.

 

Now what you describe is different of course as your presence and movement did disturb those fish and so they reacted and acted as you describe, but with the Torch nothing the like ... which is kind of what I expected.

 

So I guess whether fish get startled and decide to jump may have a lot to do with what kind of disturbance takes place in the tank, whether during the day or during the night ... and that makes sense ... the greater the disturbance the greater the reaction would be.

 

Now does that explain why fish jump (which was what Les was asking) ... IMO no as IMO there is not enough of an effect on the fish that would make that happen ...

 

I know this sounds confusing maybe but if we are looking for the reason fish jump I do not think we have found the reason yet, at least not in aquariums small and large.

 

Just saying ...

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

Speaking of hermit crabs, my second has reappeared. I thought he died, to be honest, but turns out I was wrong. So he'll be off to a lfs sometime soon. I like my peaceful, slow moving snails...hah

 

I couldn't agree more ... I personally find them way too unpredictable ... some may disagree and I have no issue with that, but personally I will not put them in a Nano.

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

Speaking of clean up I just got two of these guys acclimated and in the tank.

 

Strombus alatus, Forida Fighting Conch

 

 

From reefcleaners.org:

 

 

 

Indeed eitallent ... a great addition to the tank ... and I am sure you saw the pic of Neuwave's one on page 11 of my book ... They do a great job at cleaning and make for some real interesting images at times ...

 

Thanks for the pic and the post ... Nice Fighting Conch indeed

 

There is an interesting pic on this site : http://eol.org/data_objects/22513257

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

Albert, I have to admit there is a pinch of devils advocate in my posts on fish carpet surfing however there is a fair amount of pondering also. I am not saying one fish will never chase another in the darkness but I for one have never witnessed such behaviour esp in an established relatively peaceful tank where all the fish more or less get along with one another.

 

BTW my pearly dartfish continue to do well and stay in the upper layers of the water during daylight hours. I am waiting on a red LED torch so I can do more night time searching of my tank. These Pearly Dartfish are just the type of fish that I would imagine would be more prone to carpet surfing than I would expect from a bottom dwelling burrow living species. Nothing seems to bother these little pearls (pun intended) always out in the open constantly on the move.

 

Even the boss of my tank my Midas blenny takes little more than a passing glance at them. We shall see if I am able to keep them within the four walls of my tank I certainly hope so. One thing I have done is to put a cover on the top of my overflow box just in case they do decide to jump into it. .

 

Yes you remind me sometimes of the "BlackFriar" Les ... the one who wrote in the original Marine Reef Newsletter I published for a number of years ... :-o

 

Now on your fish ... normally those Pearls of yours are more of a bottom dweller than a top of the tank fish but then there are always exceptions I guess.

 

Your point though that you have not seen fish chasing other ones in your tank is probably because you point out in your post that you have fish that all seem to be compatible with each other, and so there would not be any aggression that could lead to jumping ...

 

So not sure how to respond to your post .. and I think the point, unless I am misunderstanding the previous ones, was about "night" fish, versus "day" fish if we call differentiate them that way ... I do not think you have any "night" ones, so you would not have seen that kind of behavior.

 

I have a "night" one, the Banggai, but that fish is so laid back, even at night, that it does no bother any other fish in the tank.

 

Not sure where this is going .... but I guess if we go back to how the posts started then it was about Jumpers, and as we know some do jump, but the question you originally posted about was "why do they jump" ... and I don't think we have gotten any closer to an answer on that one.

 

Glad to read you are getting the Red Torch ... I got a small supply in and will make them available to those who want one "at cost" (meaning the cost of the Torch, the box it is mailed in, and the postage). I now have the Post office costs and will post a message about them I guess in the Classifieds. Not sure, I may just post it here.

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

Pearly Dartfish Info ...

 

From Wakatobi

 

Link :

 

http://www.wakatobi.com/fishID/species_profileS.php?photoID=292

 

 

Just one of many posts on the Pearly Dartfish ...

 

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

The Wakatobi Dive Resort and Reef Conservation / Management Plan

 

Sulawesi - Indonesia

 

Link :

 

http://www.wakatobi.com/conservation/reef_mgmt.html

 

Albert

[andi.rahl]

I couldn't agree more ... I personally find them way too unpredictable ... some may disagree and I have no issue with that, but personally I will not put them in a Nano.

 

Albert

 

I've had bad luck with them. So, no more for me. Just snails. I want an emerald crab but I'm not sure about them.

[albertthiel]

I've had bad luck with them. So, no more for me. Just snails. I want an emerald crab but I'm not sure about them.

 

As long as there are algae for it to eat you should not have any problems with one ... I have one in my 20 Gallon and all it does is go around the rocks and picks on them at what has to be very tiny algae as I cannot see them ... but he picks and picks.

 

Most of the time mine is not visible during the day but I did see him this morning when I used the Red Critter Torch ... Due to the red Led he looked practically white rather than green . :-o

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

The Caribbean Sharpnose Puffer : Canthigaster rostrata

 

© reefs.com

 

Link :

 

 

http://www.reefs.com/blog/2013/05/01/caribbean-sharpnose-puffer-canthigaster-rostrata/

 

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

Is the Devil's Hole Pupfish near Extinction ?

 

These fish can survive even in salinities higher than 3x what others can ..

 

According to this report only very few are actually left ... 35 is the number given. Most are freshwater and brackish water ones but some live in SW as well ...

 

Link :

 

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/water-environment/devils-hole-pupfish-extinction-could-be-near-just-35-left

 

Albert

[Paul.b]

I don't know why all fish don't jump out. Remember our tanks are much shallower than the sea, my tank is only 14" deep. If I disturb a jawfish in the sea it may swim up away from me a couple of feet but in my tank a couple of feet is way out of my tank. Fish, because of their lateral line system can feel objects around them but they can not feel the surface as it is not a solid object so they have no idea they will come out of the water. If you do any boating you will see fish jumping out all the time.

So swimming up 14" is not a big deal for a fish that is used to living 60 feet deep.

Virtually all of the fish we keep come from waters at least 30' deep as only tiny fry would live in water the depth of our tanks.

[albertthiel]

I don't know why all fish don't jump out. Remember our tanks are much shallower than the sea, my tank is only 14" deep. If I disturb a jawfish in the sea it may swim up away from me a couple of feet but in my tank a couple of feet is way out of my tank. Fish, because of their lateral line system can feel objects around them but they can not feel the surface as it is not a solid object so they have no idea they will come out of the water. If you do any boating you will see fish jumping out all the time.

 

So swimming up 14" is not a big deal for a fish that is used to living 60 feet deep.

Virtually all of the fish we keep come from waters at least 30' deep as only tiny fry would live in water the depth of our tanks.

 

Thanks Paul, and indeed even if they jumped up around the Reef they only have one way to go, down and back into the water and the Reef .. that is if they actually jumped around the Reef ...

 

I did some more searches in the academic area of Google but could not find anything on "why fish jump" ....

 

I guess all we can do is if we have jumpers is put covers over the tank ... that is if we can put them, which in your case is not possible.

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

Frequently Asked Questions About Ultra Low Nutrient Systems ULNS

 

From Practical Fishkeeping and Eric Michael Sanchez

 

Link :

 

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3047

 

 

Note that this is just one of many articles that exist on the matter

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

Why do Fish living in Polar Areas not Freeze, especially since in many cases the

 

Water Temperature is below the freezing point ?

 

From Practical Fishkeeping ...

 

How they prevent frozen crystals from developing within their bodies ?

 

Link :

 

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=2763

 

 

Albert

[andi.rahl]

how long can a tank be without a filter?

[albertthiel]

how long can a tank be without a filter?

 

That is not an easy question to answer as I am sure you realize but theoretically for a long time as you could substitute water changes for the filtration (and I assume you mean mechanical and chemical). You do need biological all the time but that should happen automatically since there are life forms in the tank.

 

Now if you do not have life forms in the tank then as the food source for your bacteria diminishes more and more you will have less and less of a biological filter but you can overcome that by adding some organic matter to the tank to keep the biological filter going.

 

Not sure is this answers your question ... if not let me know

 

Albert

[andi.rahl]

That is not an easy question to answer as I am sure you realize but theoretically for a long time as you could substitute water changes for the filtration (and I assume you mean mechanical and chemical). You do need biological all the time but that should happen automatically since there are life forms in the tank.

 

Now if you do not have life forms in the tank then as the food source for your bacteria diminishes more and more you will have less and less of a biological filter but you can overcome that by adding some organic matter to the tank to keep the biological filter going.

 

Not sure is this answers your question ... if not let me know

 

Albert

well how often would I need to change the water? my freaking filter just nearly caught on fire. Luckily it happened just after I got back from dinner with my mother. God, if it's not one thing, it's another for me, isn't it?

[albertthiel]

well how often would I need to change the water? my freaking filter just nearly caught on fire. Luckily it happened just after I got back from dinner with my mother. God, if it's not one thing, it's another for me, isn't it?

 

Wow .. well glad you got back in time so it did not cause any major damage ... And to answer your question, it depends on how your water quality parameters change e.g. how nitrate and phosphate rise ... So not sure how often but if you wanted to play it safe I would change 10% every 3 to 4 days until you have a new filter running on that tank, but if you test and your nutrient levels stay low you may be able to only change every 4 or 5 days, or maybe longer ... it really depends on how quickly the water quality deteriorates ...

 

Hope that helps .. and yes if it is not one thing it is another .. as your lights went on the fritz too if I remember correctly. Sorry to read it.

 

Albert

[andi.rahl]

Wow .. well glad you got back in time so it did not cause any major damage ... And to answer your question, it depends on how your water quality parameters change e.g. how nitrate and phosphate rise ... So not sure how often but if you wanted to play it safe I would change 10% every 3 to 4 days until you have a new filter running on that tank, but if you test and your nutrient levels stay low you may be able to only change every 4 or 5 days, or maybe longer ... it really depends on how quickly the water quality deteriorates ...

 

Hope that helps .. and yes if it is not one thing it is another .. as your lights went on the fritz too if I remember correctly. Sorry to read it.

 

Albert

actually, I think the filter did cause some damage. I think it somehow zapped my tank because my mushroom, ric, and undata look really unhappy now. My brittle stars all came out of their holes and were pretty much running for the bottom of the tank. The undata is kind of white-ish around the edges. oh, and my zoas are kind of pale but not closing up. I'm so pissed off and upset.

 

hopefully I can get a new filter. My mom is pissed because I have to borrow money again. Last week it was my light, this week my filter. literally cannot afford any other equipment failures.

[atoll]

Depends on what you class as a filter IMO.

 

Now that on first reading might sound rather strange so let me explain what I mean.

 

In theory my tank has no filter not in the conventional way anyway. No power filter, canister filter, HOB and no filter material in the sump to speak of. The only aerobic filter I have is my reefscape made up of living rock. I have a skimmer which is not classed as a filter as such. I also have recently installed a TMC pearl reactor which I am hoping will reduce nitrates and phosphate which is still maturing which reminds me I need to carry out some water tests to see how its progressing. My Skimmer and pearl reactor are not designed to remove or convert ammonia or nitrite.

 

I am not alone in having no conventional aerobic filtration such as a HOB or power filter and many use living rock to naturally filter their tanks as I do. Set up correctly the use of living rock as a biological filter is arguably the best method of filtering ammonia and nitrite from the water and will aid denitrification deep within the rocks pores. Others may use DSB's (Deep Sand Beds) to carry out similar filtration others mud filters and or algae scrubbers and the like.

 

So when you say "how long can a tank be without a filter?" its not a question that is answerable fully IMO given the above.

 

Les..

 

how long can a tank be without a filter?

[albertthiel]

actually, I think the filter did cause some damage. I think it somehow zapped my tank because my mushroom, ric, and undata look really unhappy now. My brittle stars all came out of their holes and were pretty much running for the bottom of the tank. The undata is kind of white-ish around the edges. oh, and my zoas are kind of pale but not closing up. I'm so pissed off and upset.

 

hopefully I can get a new filter. My mom is pissed because I have to borrow money again. Last week it was my light, this week my filter. literally cannot afford any other equipment failures.

 

Sorry to read about all the troubles you are going through shinynic ,,, It seems that if it is not one thing, it's another that goes wrong. Now on the current state of your tank ... since we do not really know what happened it is hard to say whether the corals etc. look the way they do due to that filter failure, but it is likely that it had some effect on it ... maybe some current got into the tank briefly, or maybe some fumes or melted plastic parts got into the water, or maybe something else altogether ...

 

Anyway I hope they are doing better today ... let us know will you and maybe some pics would help too. Tks

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

Depends on what you class as a filter IMO.

 

Now that on first reading might sound rather strange so let me explain what I mean.

 

In theory my tank has no filter not in the conventional way anyway. No power filter, canister filter, HOB and no filter material in the sump to speak of. The only aerobic filter I have is my reefscape made up of living rock. I have a skimmer which is not classed as a filter as such. I also have recently installed a TMC pearl reactor which I am hoping will reduce nitrates and phosphate which is still maturing which reminds me I need to carry out some water tests to see how its progressing. My Skimmer and pearl reactor are not designed to remove or convert ammonia or nitrite.

 

I am not alone in having no conventional aerobic filtration such as a HOB or power filter and many use living rock to naturally filter their tanks as I do. Set up correctly the use of living rock as a biological filter is arguably the best method of filtering ammonia and nitrite from the water and will aid denitrification deep within the rocks pores. Others may use DSB's (Deep Sand Beds) to carry out similar filtration others mud filters and or algae scrubbers and the like.

 

So when you say "how long can a tank be without a filter?" its not a question that is answerable fully IMO given the above.

 

Les..

 

Thanks Les for that detailed description of how your tank is now set up ... and it is basically what I do too, a skimmer (HOB) and a HOB filter for chemical filtration ... and live rock in the rock for the biological part.

 

I posted a reply to the question as well but it seems that other things went wrong ... the filter that was being used "burning" up ... and who knows what that may have put in the water ...

 

So waiting to see what the response is to my earlier email and how things in the tank are doing now.

 

And do let us know how that Pearl reactor is doing for you after you had a chance to run some tests ... Thanks

 

Albert

[andi.rahl]

Sorry to read about all the troubles you are going through shinynic ,,, It seems that if it is not one thing, it's another that goes wrong. Now on the current state of your tank ... since we do not really know what happened it is hard to say whether the corals etc. look the way they do due to that filter failure, but it is likely that it had some effect on it ... maybe some current got into the tank briefly, or maybe some fumes or melted plastic parts got into the water, or maybe something else altogether ...

 

Anyway I hope they are doing better today ... let us know will you and maybe some pics would help too. Tks

 

Albert

well, they were happy, pretty, and open when I got home last night did a water change (still fine) then the thing with the filter probably half an hour later, and suddenly everything is unhappy and/or dying. I did another water change after the filter incident, and a small one when I woke up this morning. I also have my light covered in a scarf so that it doesn't shock them more since it's much brighter than the light I had before.

 

the undata is turning white, all of my little pink, purple, and white feather dusters have disappeared (except like 1), I found a dead brittle star so I have no hopes that any others made it, my zoas are trying to open, my hairy (or is it fuzzy? cannot remember what it was called) mushroom just flopped over, my ric is ok, and my "daisy polyps" are trying to come out. I'm so frustrated with all the money I just put into this tank in the past 2 weeks (bought the corals the 20th) and borrowed money for the light. I don't need this to be happening on top of everything else. honestly, there's not much to take pictures of. it's a wreck, and I really don't want to be flashing that about - bad enough that I had to tell people what was wrong :/

 

I'm thinking fumes and current got in the tank :/ the reason I assumed current was because of the way my brittle stars reacted when it started smoking. they ran for the bottom then hid again the moment I pulled the plug and got the filter out of the water.