Red hornets and why they're not rare part 2

[DoubleD]

Are you serious? Lineage means that you can trace your frag back to the original colony. The idea, in addition to status, is that by buying frags from a colony that's been aquacultured for so long that it's more likely to live and keep it's colors in your tank. It applies more to SPS than zoanthids since they're so fragile to begin with, especially if they're wild caught.

 

That's how you certify it. Is that sufficient or does someone need to dumb it down even more?

 

My dog has papers, I know where he came from, and I know where his parents came from, and his grandparents, and so on, and so on. This is certified by the AKC (or American Kennel Club, or do you want me to dumb it down for you also?).

 

My question was what method you use to certify authenticity or "source" for your Ultra Rare, Elite, Super Zoas from the most exotic regions of the planet? Or do you just blindly put out 100pp and hope you know what you are looking at.

 

I was asking a legitimate question. But if you feel like you have to insult my intelligence to make yourself look better, then by all means.

 

Anyone out there with a real answer?

[Black Mark]

Comedy

[eternal]

Anyone out there with a real answer?

 

I personally went straight to the source talked to the store owner and then inspected in person the zoa I was going to buy. I asked all the normal question lighting, flow, etc. I spent a considerable amount of time to make sure it was the true red hornet.

 

While doing this I saw the red hornet under pc lighting and mh. It is true that under pc the zoa turns brown however it gets HUGE like the size of a paly.

 

I hope this helps

 

You guys should be ashamed for accusing highly respected hobbiest for photoshopping

[GiantBen]

I personally went straight to the source talked to the store owner and then inspected in person the zoa I was going to buy. I asked all the normal question lighting, flow, etc. I spent a considerable amount of time to make sure it was the true red hornet.

 

While doing this I saw the red hornet under pc lighting and mh. It is true that under pc the zoa turns brown however it gets HUGE like the size of a paly.

 

I hope this helps

 

You guys should be ashamed for accusing highly respected hobbiest for photoshopping

You get them at Caesar's or North Bay Aquatics? Never seen any hornets at either, but I don't stop in too often. Nice to see another local.

[DoubleD]

I personally went straight to the source talked to the store owner and then inspected in person the zoa I was going to buy. I asked all the normal question lighting, flow, etc. I spent a considerable amount of time to make sure it was the true red hornet.

 

While doing this I saw the red hornet under pc lighting and mh. It is true that under pc the zoa turns brown however it gets HUGE like the size of a paly.

 

I hope this helps

 

You guys should be ashamed for accusing highly respected hobbiest for photoshopping

 

Thank you for a straight answer.

 

So there is no "certification" so to speak? Just reputation, and their word?

[Eole00]

Setting up lineage in an official manner would be incredibly hard and tedious; each frag would have to be certified before a sale etc... just doesn’t seem feasible for such a small investment.

then there's the issue of falsification to increase coral prices.

[eternal]

Reputation and studying the details.

 

I got them in San Jose/milpitas. Where the origanl owner is.

[GiantBen]

Reputation and studying the details.

 

I got them in San Jose/milpitas. Where the origanl owner is.

Doesn't this go in the face of the "dumbed down" answer of being able to trace to the "original" colony?

[DoubleD]

Setting up lineage in an official manner would be incredibly hard and tedious; each frag would have to be certified before a sale etc... just doesn’t seem feasible for such a small investment.

then there's the issue of falsification to increase coral prices.

 

You would have to start somewhere.

 

ORA has a trusted name in the industry. Maybe another organization should do it. I just thought maybe there would be a better way to protect buyers.

 

Lineage wouldn't be so hard to track, because you could pay a membership fee, and have your colony registered. Just like my dog. If I chose to breed my dog, I have papers showing his lineage and pedigree. That's why a Otterhound (rare dog) is more expensive then a Cocker Spaniel (my dog).

 

If there is a paper trail (or electronic paper trail) it would be easy to follow up if something is rare, or legit if it's registered.

 

That's all... Nice thread. Thanks.

[v850aq]

sigh...if only you could grow dogs by snapping pieces off them and gluing them to plugs...it would make the concept of lineage completely useless and nothing more than hearsay... wait a minute

[GiantBen]

sigh...if only you could grow dogs by snapping pieces off them and gluing them to plugs...it would make the concept of lineage completely useless and nothing more than hearsay... wait a minute

[DoubleD]

sigh...if only you could grow dogs by snapping pieces off them and gluing them to plugs...it would make the concept of lineage completely useless and nothing more than hearsay... wait a minute

 

LOL.

 

I suppose not.

 

Then the term "lineage" really doesn't apply to zoa (or coral) propagation, and is really a buzz word.

 

Bristle Worms reproduce much the same way by splitting etc...but you don't hear about those Elite Rare Earth Bristle Worms from the highest of ocean mountain peaks.

[Eole00]

You would have to start somewhere.

 

ORA has a trusted name in the industry. Maybe another organization should do it. I just thought maybe there would be a better way to protect buyers.

 

Lineage wouldn't be so hard to track, because you could pay a membership fee, and have your colony registered. Just like my dog. If I chose to breed my dog, I have papers showing his lineage and pedigree. That's why a Otterhound (rare dog) is more expensive then a Cocker Spaniel (my dog).

 

If there is a paper trail (or electronic paper trail) it would be easy to follow up if something is rare, or legit if it's registered.

 

That's all... Nice thread. Thanks.

The main issue doesn’t reside in the original colony and tracking, but what happens when 2 people with similar corals want the same names yet the corals came from a different wild colony with identical colorations. It’s impossible to determine if they are related or not without some sort of genetic testing, and then how is one to determine if the corals are allowed to have the same name due to variations in location. The names would have to start with the wild colony location of origin, a date or some other determining factor to differentiate let’s say for giggles "red hornets A" from "red hornets B" it just seems to me like a much too expensive procedure for a zoa colony. And then there’s the coral resale; hobbyists would lose the lineage when they frag unless they pay for the service.

 

 

The difference between something like a zoa and a dog, lies in the genetic testing available. A pedigree shows ancestry of the animal which can easily be tested for. Due to the huge amounts of zoas and the variations they exhibit from differences in environmental factors it’s pretty much impossible to do. For any frag to be certified in a lineage, a sample of the frag would have to be sent to a genetics lab and matched to the original colony. This would require at least 1 polyp sacrificed, and all the fees associated with the testing tacked onto the price of the coral. And that would have to happen for each and every frag sold from a mother colony, or an official certified individual would have to frag the corals and put them on designated frag plugs to reduce fraud from non certified frags. But then again, who doesn’t like gold or platinum frag plugs for a pedigree coral. just hope there's no copper plugs.

[jjjo]

rediculous...

 

all corals are lineage to the ocean. except man made grafted ones, genetically altered ones, etc... which i havn't seen much of. purple hornets, red hornets, blue hornets, black hornets, w.e all were from the same ocean at one point. lineage doesn't get better than that.

 

thanks,

dan

[Withers]

Then the term "lineage" really doesn't apply to zoa (or coral) propagation, and is really a buzz word.

 

Sure it does, collector's keep track of where their corals came from, so when someone buys something from them, they can show that they got it from so-and-so who bought it from so-and-so, who got it from the source. Their reputation is what verifies it. No, it's not as official as breeding dogs, and like I said, it applies much more to SPS than zoanthids.

 

I don't want anyone to get the idea that I'm one of these people though. If I see something that I like, I buy it. I don't care if it has a name or not and I certainly don't care if it has lineage as long as it looks good.

[GiantBen]

Sure it does, collector's keep track of where their corals came from, so when someone buys something from them, they can show that they got it from so-and-so who bought it from so-and-so, who got it from the source.

 

This is the part that is troubling. An "unknown" in the coral business could buy a "real" coral with the intent of fragging it, but because he is unknown, his claim of lineage would not be seen as valid, and thus his reals become fakes. Right? Seems like the eyeball test has to come into play a little.

[Withers]

Sure it does, it's far from an exact science. I'm just trying to explain how it works and why some people go through the hassle.

 

I already said that I think organism could sell those as Red Hornets and no one would question him. I hope they do end up just as colorful, more supply is nothing but a good thing IMO.

[adinsxq]

i think i'm going to vote jason for president.

[Withers]

[organism]

You guys should be ashamed for accusing highly respected hobbiest for photoshopping

 

 

I'm guessing that's a joke? In case it's not, the second pic was photoshopped, and you can tell by not only the over saturation but also the fact that superglue doesn't look like that. My desk is make of wood, that picture was photoshopped, and the sky is blue, even the naysayers agree on all three of those things. I'm not accusing my desk and the sky for being what they are, it is what it is...

[Withers]

pixels

[DoubleD]

The names would have to start with the wild colony location of origin, a date or some other determining factor to differentiate let’s say for giggles "red hornets A" from "red hornets B" it just seems to me like a much too expensive procedure for a zoa colony. And then there’s the coral resale; hobbyists would lose the lineage when they frag unless they pay for the service.

 

People that are connoisseurs of Rare and Exotic corals pay lots of money for them, so the amount of money to set up a legitimate registration service is minuscule in comparison to the investment.

 

The difference between something like a zoa and a dog, lies in the genetic testing available. A pedigree shows ancestry of the animal which can easily be tested for. Due to the huge amounts of zoas and the variations they exhibit from differences in environmental factors it’s pretty much impossible to do.

 

This technology has only been readily available for the last few years. It still is expensive, but it's not something that most people buying a pet (or coral, or fish for that matter) would care about. They are looking for specific traits in a dog breed that fits their purposes and likes. I like the temperament of a cocker spaniel, I have a boat, I need a nice dog that likes water. I like green and red zoas. I have watermelons, but I didn't buy them as water melons, I just bought green and red zoas.

 

If you were paying $500 per polyp or $10000 for a puppy, you would think that $100 for a DNA test would be worth it, if it was a money making proposition.

 

 

I don't want anyone to get the idea that I'm one of these people though. If I see something that I like, I buy it. I don't care if it has a name or not and I certainly don't care if it has lineage as long as it looks good.

 

Not at all. I make a habit of noting where I got my corals, and I also frag them before I put them in the tank. Sometimes I like to keep a small piece out to trade or help recoup the cost of a coral. Other times it's to make room so it fits in my smaller tanks. If I see a colony I like, I get it. I think it would be cool to be able to verify authenticity some how, for real hard core collectors. Most colonies I get are raised from coral farms or friends that grow out 1-2 polyps to 100 polyps.

[Withers]

Sorry for the dig on your intelligence earlier, I've spent too much time in the Lounge (WAY too much time)

[Weetabix7]

Sorry for the dig on your intelligence earlier, I've spent too much time in the Lounge (WAY too much time)

 

[animalmaster6]

x2