Moai of the Sea!

[markalot]

My reading pointed to sponges making a big impact as well. Keep in mind there are plenty of tanks that use GFO with no issue and plenty that have this exact issue. There are also plenty of tanks that run > .3 PO4 and don't experience coral death. It's the change, up or down, that I think does the most harm.

 

But back to sponges. The working theory is that a tank full of sponges has an enormous amount of sponge detritus in the water column which helps feed the acros and keep them healthier. The healthier a coral the more it can take parameter swings, be it PO4 or KH. While I don't think we know exactly what the magic is I think we can assume that the newer a tank is the more stable it has to be in order to keep corals healthy.

 

But it's all just guesswork, unfortunately.

[Nano sapiens]

But it's all just guesswork, unfortunately.

 

I find it very significant that after all these years no one can definitively point to a causal agent for RTN, either in the aquarium or in nature. Vibrio species have been implicated, but it's unclear if they are in any way causative, or just opportunistic.

 

My admittedly unscientific 'gut feeling' is that these fast growing stony corals 'commit' to rapid growth when conditions are optimal, but if conditions change too quickly they are unable to immediately stop in their tracks and so continue to use whatever resources are at at hand, which can include their own tissue. Kind of like an extreme marathon runner's body will metabolize the body's resources with the last resort being the utilization of protein (muscle tissue) in a desperate effort to keep going. This could explain the 'autoimmune-like' condition stated by some noted authors when discussing this condition.

[Gary.F]

There are also plenty of tanks that run > .3 PO4 and don't experience coral death. It's the change, up or down, that I think does the most harm.

 

 

I agree. I'm coming to believe that this is the key to this whole endeavour.

There are a few things that I now test for religiously because I know that they can drift out gradually and the system might seem okay but, once things start to go tits up, the correction is going to be almost as stressful for the corals as the original error.

I know that we keep hearing that striving for stability is better than chasing numbers but there's always the temptation to try and correct an issue as soon as possible. Human nature, I guess.

 

Of course, you can always find someone breaking the rules but doing fine. That's just the nature of something this complex. But little gentle nudges to keep things on track are much safer than letting things go and then trying to haul everything back in line again when our animals start to show signs of unhappiness. At least, that's what my recent experiences have taught me.

 

BTW, Scott. I know it's too late but I read this today:

http://reefbuilders.us1.list-manage.com/track/click?u=7ee5216301758b10a7e4608c4&id=a90b74fd41&e=2036de21a6

 

Some useful stuff for those of us who travel a bit.

[dropped]

are you sure your cyano isnt dinoflagellates?

[Sk8n Reefer]

My reading pointed to sponges making a big impact as well. Keep in mind there are plenty of tanks that use GFO with no issue and plenty that have this exact issue. There are also plenty of tanks that run > .3 PO4 and don't experience coral death. It's the change, up or down, that I think does the most harm.

 

But back to sponges. The working theory is that a tank full of sponges has an enormous amount of sponge detritus in the water column which helps feed the acros and keep them healthier. The healthier a coral the more it can take parameter swings, be it PO4 or KH. While I don't think we know exactly what the magic is I think we can assume that the newer a tank is the more stable it has to be in order to keep corals healthy.

 

But it's all just guesswork, unfortunately.

That's interesting about the sponges- I had large sponge growths on the rock in my Nuvo and they all came over when I transferred the tank. That's another thing that is confusing- although this tank is somewhat new 7 months now - all the rock came from the Nuvo except a few smaller pieces. This was pretty much a tank transfer so I would think things would be more stable and be able to handle most changes just fine. Unfortunately that as not the case and the corals seem to still be affected - the ones I transferred back to the Nuvo are still not recovered- not at all and they are still looking as bad or worse.

 

I am on my new routine of daily vacuuming out the cyano - it's a little more under control but still comes back during the day. I am running a small amount of carbon passively in the sump and skimmer is on. I am just not sure what could of caused this issue so quickly but I think it's gonna be awhile before its under control again

[jabeuy]

Oh man, sorry to hear about whats happening. I recently lost 11/14 fish in a span of a week. I kinda know how you feel since the feeling of loss is pretty fresh to me. But you've been growing those SPS for so long

 

Ah well, here's to recovery and rebuilding!

[teenyreef]

I'm glad things have at least stabilized a little bit!

[Sk8n Reefer]

I find it very significant that after all these years no one can definitively point to a causal agent for RTN, either in the aquarium or in nature. Vibrio species have been implicated, but it's unclear if they are in any way causative, or just opportunistic.

 

My admittedly unscientific 'gut feeling' is that these fast growing stony corals 'commit' to rapid growth when conditions are optimal, but if conditions change too quickly they are unable to immediately stop in their tracks and so continue to use whatever resources are at at hand, which can include their own tissue. Kind of like an extreme marathon runner's body will metabolize the body's resources with the last resort being the utilization of protein (muscle tissue) in a desperate effort to keep going. This could explain the 'autoimmune-like' condition stated by some noted authors when discussing this condition.

 

That's an interesting take, seems we are really not very far in our understanding of corals- at least for me ? I felt I had a bit of a strong support group with my rock ( transferred from the Nuvo) being so healthy with micro life and not showing any signs of issues besides the cyano growth I was experiencing. Maybe it wasn't the addition of the GFO and just the cyano that removed yo many nutrients from the water. I am still in a battle against the cyano - it's a little better but now that the lights are back on it has come back fairly strong again. I am removing daily and running a small amount of carbon passively in the sump.

[Sk8n Reefer]

are you sure your cyano isnt dinoflagellates?

I had some Dino's early on but this is cyano from my experience. Although I can see where a heavy Dino population can mimic cyano

Oh man, sorry to hear about whats happening. I recently lost 11/14 fish in a span of a week. I kinda know how you feel since the feeling of loss is pretty fresh to me. But you've been growing those SPS for so long

Ah well, here's to recovery and rebuilding!

Thanks Jabeuy, yes it can be frustrating- this hobby can make you rethink things over and over again. 11/14 fish- wow what happened- dang sorry man!

I'm glad things have at least stabilized a little bit!

Thanks Teeny, this morning I was happy cause it showed no regrow the over night but today with the lights back on it has regrown- not as much as usual though- seems my routine of vacuuming it out continues

[Nano sapiens]

That's an interesting take, seems we are really not very far in our understanding of corals...

 

IMO, even those that specifically study coral and their environment still have a lot to learn in order to predict how a reef system is going to react to imbalances (assuming we can figure out what causes the imbalance in the first place).

 

Many of us tend to push our SPS pretty hard trying for that neon bright coloration and high growth rate, but I wonder if we aren't subjecting the animals to an unnatural situation that can result in less tolerance for imbalances in the system...

[Sk8n Reefer]

So to top things off now my Nyos skimmer has started to act up. The air is now being pushed out the outlet sending a ridiculous amount of bubbles into the tank. I've worked every spot of the tuning and still it's not gathering bubbles towards the top but sending them out the outlet. I had this issue in the beginning but was able to make adjustments to fix it- now no adjustments seem to be working. I know the chemi clean can cause extra foam but it's not so much that- it's the direction they are being pushed. I've contacted Eco-tech to see what's going on.

[Nano sapiens]

^^ Man, it's one thing after another.

 

Hang in there...

[Ancelot]

Hey bro, first and foremost, sad to see your tank in this state! Though we are thousands kilometres apart (incl. Atlantic ocean), I totally feel your pain.

 

However here are my two cent. Personally I do not think the GFO is the main culprit of the crash. In fact it is only a small player in the whole scheme of things because I had couple of your experiences with my own nano. To illustrate, my first crash happened when I was rescaping my tank with new rocks - bam! crash 1. My second crash came when I was changing my main tank - i did all the SOP but wham! crash 2! Crash 3 came when I was changing my sump tank after my dad accidentally chipped my old one with his mop whilst I was fixing my pipes so i was forced to change sump tank - smack! crash 3. After 3 crashes and countless of dollars down the drain, I started asking why and how. I also started visiting my friends' tanks and observe their setups.

 

A few keypoints noted:

 

1. Those who run carbon dosing have very clean sumps

2. Those who run mixed systems ie. carbon + GFO + whatever have dirty sumps

3. Those who run old school have super dirty but very high intense sponge growth sumps

 

So basically i noted that biofiltration balance is essential especially for nano tanks. If your old setup is somewhat dirty and high nutrients, you gotta take it very very slow with your move whilst if your old setup is clean and swanky, you can get it off pretty quick with the same methods but you gotta make sure your rocks are dead clean because any trace of nutrient will cause immediate algae outbreak. On contrary, the dirty old setup wont get such algae issues after you move - be it reusing your old rocks or corals sticking to old rocks whatever. Today, i am putting one cup of rowa carbon per week, 6 tablespoons of sorb4 gfo and countless amount of sponges growth.. I am not running any skimmer and my corals are taking the brute without a sweat. Just the above husbandry and 10% water change per week.

 

Therefore my suggestion is take your skimmer offline. Keep the gfo and probably throw in some carbon. Do a lot of water changes and do not add any new corals until the algae outbreak is over which I feel will hit you after the cyano. Dose some bacteria. If you can, add some siporax or biomedia to help cope with the nutrients by acting as artificial bacteria bed in conjunction with your rocks. Only start adding corals when you get some coralline growth or you have completed changing a few times of your total tank volume.

 

As much as what's said above, good luck bro. What doesnt kill you simply makes you stronger!

[Sk8n Reefer]

Hey bro, first and foremost, sad to see your tank in this state! Though we are thousands kilometres apart (incl. Atlantic ocean), I totally feel your pain.

 

However here are my two cent. Personally I do not think the GFO is the main culprit of the crash. In fact it is only a small player in the whole scheme of things because I had couple of your experiences with my own nano. To illustrate, my first crash happened when I was rescaping my tank with new rocks - bam! crash 1. My second crash came when I was changing my main tank - i did all the SOP but wham! crash 2! Crash 3 came when I was changing my sump tank after my dad accidentally chipped my old one with his mop whilst I was fixing my pipes so i was forced to change sump tank - smack! crash 3. After 3 crashes and countless of dollars down the drain, I started asking why and how. I also started visiting my friends' tanks and observe their setups.

 

A few keypoints noted:

 

1. Those who run carbon dosing have very clean sumps

2. Those who run mixed systems ie. carbon + GFO + whatever have dirty sumps

3. Those who run old school have super dirty but very high intense sponge growth sumps

 

So basically i noted that biofiltration balance is essential especially for nano tanks. If your old setup is somewhat dirty and high nutrients, you gotta take it very very slow with your move whilst if your old setup is clean and swanky, you can get it off pretty quick with the same methods but you gotta make sure your rocks are dead clean because any trace of nutrient will cause immediate algae outbreak. On contrary, the dirty old setup wont get such algae issues after you move - be it reusing your old rocks or corals sticking to old rocks whatever. Today, i am putting one cup of rowa carbon per week, 6 tablespoons of sorb4 gfo and countless amount of sponges growth.. I am not running any skimmer and my corals are taking the brute without a sweat. Just the above husbandry and 10% water change per week.

 

Therefore my suggestion is take your skimmer offline. Keep the gfo and probably throw in some carbon. Do a lot of water changes and do not add any new corals until the algae outbreak is over which I feel will hit you after the cyano. Dose some bacteria. If you can, add some siporax or biomedia to help cope with the nutrients by acting as artificial bacteria bed in conjunction with your rocks. Only start adding corals when you get some coralline growth or you have completed changing a few times of your total tank volume.

 

As much as what's said above, good luck bro. What doesnt kill you simply makes you stronger!

Thanks Ancelot, I appreaciate you taking the time and writing all of this information to me. I think you've made some great points. Here's how things went. I transferred almost all of the rock over from my Nuvo- over a period of about 3-4 months- very slowly. A few corals were attached but nothing major in size or sensitive ones. I had little to know algae blooms and things seemed to be really stable just a few diatoms but they were short lived. I moved a few of my larger caps and stylo's over next with a little more rock- again everything seemed spot on. I was getting good growth again with all of my corals so I started adding some more difficult acros. I feed the Nuvo heavily everyday but I ran carbon and GFO in my Nuvo almost continuously and kept nutrients very low- below .03 but still had great growth and color from my sps. I did have one RTN episode that took out about 4-5 larger acros colonies.

 

I started feeding my tank daily and nutrients started creeping up on me. I kept them at pay with weekly 5-10gal. w/c. I wasn't happy with my skimmer so I bought what I thought was a top of the line- Nyos 120( now it is acting ip and offline). It was working great for a few weeks then boom- started pouring ridiculous amounts of bubbles into the tank no matter how I adjust it.

 

I started to see some cyano in the corners and under some rocks and I was traveling for work for 4 days so I took the skimmer offline and wanted to combat the cyano while I was gone so I placed about 3 tablespoons of BRS regular GFO in my reactor but turned the flow through the reactor down low. I added a smaller amount of carbon into a bag in my filter sock. That was on Sunday- Monday my wife called and said the cyano was increasing so I had her mix it up to get it in the water column to help remove it. By Tuesday the cyano was out of control and the corals started to RTN. I had my wife shut off the GFO reactor and remove the carbon on Wednsday. By the all the corals were stressed and most were starting to RTN. I arrived back to town Thursday evening to a decimated tank and full cyano bloom in affect. I tested alk. and it was slight increased from 7 to 8. Po4 was 0 with my Elos kit. I was surprised my 2yr+ corals (caps & Stylo's) reacted so negative so quickly- they've been through a lot worse and are a fairly hardy coral

 

So dosed some chemiclean and it didn't do much to the cyano. I've had the skimmer running with the collection cup off yo help keep oxygen levels up during the chemiclean. Two days later I changed 10 gals. And I've been vacuuming out the cyano daily and changing 10 gal. Every other day. That's where I am at today and my new routine. I think your right- I should probably add some extra bacteria to keep things moving along. I think I'll run GFO passively in the future should I need to. I think the combination of cyano removing nutrients and then GFO removing the rest 'shocked' the corals .........thats all I can really see could have happened ?

[sam_the_reefer]

Sad to see the tank crash. Maybe you can use the water or add some rubble from your other tank to re-inoculate this tank. Hope things bounce back. Maybe you can use this as an opportunity to start something different.

[Gary.F]

"That was on Sunday- Monday my wife called and said the cyano was increasing so I had her mix it up to get it in the water column to help remove it."

 

I think this might have been the most important part of what happened. The cyano got dispersed into the water column while you had the most important part of the mechanical filtration offline (the skimmer). The cyano then just got spread around the tank with nothing to remove it- or the nutrients it had bound- from the system. Even if you are running a filter sock, the particles it catches remain in the system until it is removed for cleaning.

The GFO can't really replace or substitute a skimmer as it won't remove the organic particles.

 

Personally, I would think this is more likely to be the root of the issue than nutrient depletion from adding GFO.

[Polarcollision]

Do you have that thick biofilm scuz on all but the viewing glass you clean? If so then I think that points to plenty of bacterial diversity.

 

What about water flow? mats of bacteria somewhat protect their nutrient sources by their physical presence. Increasing flow will break it up. I solve my cyano outbreaks in the mixed reef this way ever since I lost acros to a chemiclean-induced crash.

 

I've had cyano with various levels of PO4--even 0 as you have with the GFO 'overdose'--so it's hard for me to buy the PO4 connection as the only cause. I know this goes completely against common thinking. What I do notice is that cyano blooms begin with some kind of animal passing away. Right now in the 24g, its a snail. So, I started thinking back to biochemistry classes... What's most abundant: carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, phosphorus, and,,, sulfur. Hmmmn... sulfur is significant in amino acids... proteins...animals... hmmm. In the dwarf seahose tank with the in-tank bbs hatchery I notice another piece of the puzzle. When cyano/dino is at that fine dusting stage just before a full breakout, if I clean the hatchery it smells awful. Sulfury rotten eggs terrible. What else smells awful? sulfury snail decomposition. Then, with further poking around on Google, I came across this book showing how cyanobacteria mats sequester and initiate a sulfur cycle with bacteria. https://books.google.com/books?id=4oJ_vi27s18C&pg=PA109&lpg=PA109&dq=cyanobacteria+sulphur&source=bl&ots=JE4j-OvGNV&sig=tfQ-PBrOzrh4gattLPixCEDMwnY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjx483ShOPMAhUJwWMKHVxnAtIQ6AEIQzAF#v=onepage&q=cyanobacteria%20sulphur&f=false

 

So, happen to know if any snails--or any other animals-- died a few days before the cyano outbreak? The good news is that if absorbing excess free sulfur is indeed a solution, there are sulfur pearls available to run in a reactor.

[Sk8n Reefer]

Sad to see the tank crash. Maybe you can use the water or add some rubble from your other tank to re-inoculate this tank. Hope things bounce back. Maybe you can use this as an opportunity to start something different.

Thanks xellos88, this was my start something different tank. Right now I am just trying to get things under control and then I should be able to start back up

"That was on Sunday- Monday my wife called and said the cyano was increasing so I had her mix it up to get it in the water column to help remove it."[/size]

 

I think this might have been the most important part of what happened. The cyano got dispersed into the water column while you had the most important part of the mechanical filtration offline (the skimmer). The cyano then just got spread around the tank with nothing to remove it- or the nutrients it had bound- from the system. Even if you are running a filter sock, the particles it catches remain in the system until it is removed for cleaning.[/size]

The GFO can't really replace or substitute a skimmer as it won't remove the organic particles.[/size]

 

Personally, I would think this is more likely to be the root of the issue than nutrient depletion from adding GFO.[/size]

Ya, that might not of been the best thing to do but I was scrambling for something. I did place extra filter floss in a few places before I left so that should have also caught some of the cyano. Need to figure out my skimmer issued this weekend or bring this damn thing back- not happy with it at all- emailed Nyos- we'll see what they say

Do you have that thick biofilm scuz on all but the viewing glass you clean? If so then I think that points to plenty of bacterial diversity.

 

What about water flow? mats of bacteria somewhat protect their nutrient sources by their physical presence. Increasing flow will break it up. I solve my cyano outbreaks in the mixed reef this way ever since I lost acros to a chemiclean-induced crash.

 

I've had cyano with various levels of PO4--even 0 as you have with the GFO 'overdose'--so it's hard for me to buy the PO4 connection as the only cause. I know this goes completely against common thinking. What I do notice is that cyano blooms begin with some kind of animal passing away. Right now in the 24g, its a snail. So, I started thinking back to biochemistry classes... What's most abundant: carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, phosphorus, and,,, sulfur. Hmmmn... sulfur is significant in amino acids... proteins...animals... hmmm. In the dwarf seahose tank with the in-tank bbs hatchery I notice another piece of the puzzle. When cyano/dino is at that fine dusting stage just before a full breakout, if I clean the hatchery it smells awful. Sulfury rotten eggs terrible. What else smells awful? sulfury snail decomposition. Then, with further poking around on Google, I came across this book showing how cyanobacteria mats sequester and initiate a sulfur cycle with bacteria. https://books.google.com/books?id=4oJ_vi27s18C&pg=PA109&lpg=PA109&dq=cyanobacteria+sulphur&source=bl&ots=JE4j-OvGNV&sig=tfQ-PBrOzrh4gattLPixCEDMwnY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjx483ShOPMAhUJwWMKHVxnAtIQ6AEIQzAF#v=onepage&q=cyanobacteria%20sulphur&f=false

 

So, happen to know if any snails--or any other animals-- died a few days before the cyano outbreak? The good news is that if absorbing excess free sulfur is indeed a solution, there are sulfur pearls available to run in a reactor.

There may have been a few snail deaths in there but I can't be sure. I have a Gyre 150 cranked up to 50% but I could pump it up to 60% and see how that does - good point. There is a good amount of flow from the gyre- pretty amazing pump. Thanks for the link- I will read up on that ?

[Nano sapiens]

So many interesting ideas and theories...so hard to pin-point the exact cause(s). Even though these aquaria are simplistic compared to the natural reef environment, they still can confound at times.

 

Taking the longer view, I think the faster you can get the system back to a normal routine (stability), the better. Adding additional beneficial bacteria might be a good idea (certainly can't hurt). I'd only use media if testing showed that it was needed, then use it moderately and passively. I'd keep feeding on the lighter side and lighting moderate until the system fully stabilizes.

[vlangel]

O my, that book Polar found on google is not exactly light reading! I better have mote coffee before I tackle it! Ha ha!!!

[jinx]

My reading pointed to sponges making a big impact as well. Keep in mind there are plenty of tanks that use GFO with no issue and plenty that have this exact issue. There are also plenty of tanks that run > .3 PO4 and don't experience coral death. It's the change, up or down, that I think does the most harm.

 

But back to sponges. The working theory is that a tank full of sponges has an enormous amount of sponge detritus in the water column which helps feed the acros and keep them healthier. The healthier a coral the more it can take parameter swings, be it PO4 or KH. While I don't think we know exactly what the magic is I think we can assume that the newer a tank is the more stable it has to be in order to keep corals healthy.

 

But it's all just guesswork, unfortunately.

I actually have a butt load of of purple and blue sponge all through my tank since I've been seeing problems with it.. Hmmn.

[jinx]

I actually have a butt load of of purple and blue sponge all through my tank since I've been seeing problems with it.. Hmmn.

Never considered this may have been a problem with my situation. Sponges are fairly toxic to sps. It's got me thinking that eliminating micro bubbles in the system is a bad idea. Sponges hate air.. SPS, not so much.

[Rural]

sorry to hear, i wondered why you were not responding to my thread posts ABOUT MY almost CRASH... now i see you had bigger fish to fry. i am just as guilty, going through the "omg, omg, omg" stage doesnt lend itself to reading about other members thriving tanks. hence, i missed your mess.

 

 

Your calcium seemed low, do you think the ratio of calcium to alk was off? And seriously - I have nothing to back this up and I don't even know if this is a "thing"

i disagree this is a thing. personally, my Ca was super low (150ish) and Alk was super high (19) and i had no rtn. granted this happened slowly.

 

I am worried now with the doser setting cause no one is really pulling anything

this was my main issue and took a couple of days to figure that part out. i bet this happened: corals stressed for some reason, then doser kept dosing then swings happened then things died and different acid/base reactions lead to close to "correction" of levels?

 

w/c is really my only option

i agree, granted making sure you dont swing is critical as well.

 

Another thought - do you have any microbacter 7? That's another good stand by when you don't know what's going on and it won't hurt anything to pour some in every day.

i agree, i dosed seachem seed and revive? and fuel daily during my crisis along with reef chili (controlled nutrients by also doing w/c just prior to remove some of the previous days waste). this are phyto and bacteria blends. i am a strong fan of feeding through a crisis and just increasing w/c, i was up to 30% or more a day w/c but i was loading back nutrients as dosed bacteria/phyto/food as well.

 

Ya, it's getting to that point - it's not affected by heavy skimming and w/c's

Thanks Dawn, apparently I am clueless too. I thought I had a plan and balance going but it went south quick

this sucks when the plan doesnt work. all you can do is regroup and reanalyze the situation. call the power company about surges? call the water board about contaminants? i too thought stray current and replaced my pump and heater for my tank. they are sitting as backups dry for now...

 

Yup, the damn cyano is coming on crazy- I stir it around when I do a w/c and it's back in a few hours like nothing ever happened- probably time for chemi clean to see if I can "jolt" it.
Thanks Stella- place an air stone in the tank or sump? Ya, it went south fast this time and leaving the day it hit didn't help anything

in=out. you know this. if you inc out more than in you deplete whatever it is cyano is using to grow. so, just vacuum the top layer of cyano out, dont stir it into the water column. eventually it will abide with patience, but i also believe once it is in the tank it can always come back.

 

Thanks Spectra- I don't care what they say- your alright in my book Seriously though- I really appreciate it

+1

anything i have you can have some of, just holla when you're ready.

 

 

 

like you told me once, patience and nothing drastic. too bad it didnt work out for you. i for one feel it is all the automation that makes our tanks crash, because one thing changes for better or worse and throws off the balance but all the others keep churning away raising/lowering/swinging the flow/light/levels/temp.

 

good luck, keep your head up, cant wait to see how you change the tank for the better!

[North Borders]

So sorry to hear about your losses!

 

I'm a relative noob to reef tanks(1 year up and running only), so please take this with a grain of salt. When I was reading through your description of the events leading up to this, one thing stuck out to me and that was the part about your skimmer suddenly going crazy. Is there a chance that some foreign substance could have wound up in the tank? Stray cleaning solution of any sort? Likely not, but that made my eyebrow raise a little.

[Gary.F]

Update? Things stabilising yet?