tibbsy07 IM10

[tibbsy07]

Looking forward to seeing the results! I've been following the discussion in that other thread with interest.

 

I can't help wondering if this is one of those things that's hard to assess because there are so many other variables involved in keeping a reef tank. It kind of reminds me of the discussions about whether a small refugium is helpful or not, or (like Kat pointed out) whether you should use GFO vs Purigen. You can argue it either way but it's a real challenge to design an experiment that would eliminate enough variables to say for sure one way or the other.

The biggest variable I have found is that to different people, these outputs are different. For some, crystal clear water is the most important, and even then, different people have different definitions or views on what crystal clear water is and what it looks like to them. People are seeing effects that they are biased to or against based on their perceptions and wants. None of these things are measurable. I am going go try my best to qualitatively discuss my goals and "measure" the impact of the oxydator.

[tibbsy07]

Update on the oxydator. I've gone through probably a third of the peroxide in the jar. Not sure how this is supposed to make it 4 weeks but we'll see. Perhaps higher peroxide will last longer. I still haven't found higher peroxide locally.

 

On a side note related to the tank, I have removed the rw-4. Just soooo much flow. I put the regular return nozzle back on the return pump and the. Added my rio 50+ power head in there right under the return. Should be about 170gph, which is plenty for my softies and LPS. May even give them some more stability and make them happier. We'll see.

[natalia_la_loca]

My oxydator (Oxydator A) went through peroxide very quickly too. I used 35% peroxide, diluted to...erm...whatever the recommended strength was, I forget. Eventually I took it out because I don't have a sump on my 37 gallon tank and I felt any benefits it added were outweighed by its ugliness in the display, and the fact that it needed refilling constantly. I think it took about 2-3 weeks to empty the canister of H202 completely.

[tibbsy07]

My oxydator (Oxydator A) went through peroxide very quickly too. I used 35% peroxide, diluted to...erm...whatever the recommended strength was, I forget. Eventually I took it out because I don't have a sump on my 37 gallon tank and I felt any benefits it added were outweighed by its ugliness in the display, and the fact that it needed refilling constantly. I think it took about 2-3 weeks to empty the canister of H202 completely.

I bumped up to 2 catalysts from 1, but even with 1, I used a good amount of the 4.9% peroxide supplied.

 

As of now, nearly 2 weeks in, the only thing I have seen is more algae. There were a few strands of macro of some kind on the rock I got from Metrokat. I broke off the section that contained the algae about 2 weeks ago, but there is a sudden explosion of that macro and another not previously seen. It had to have come from that rock as nothing has been added since I got that, and the only thing that has changed in the time that the algae has exploded in growth was the addition of the oxydator the week before. There has also been a bit of a diatom growth on the actual oxydator itself.

 

No place locally sells anything over 3% hydrogen peroxide. I will have to get it online or something. I can't really say anything good or bad until I use an actual appropriate amount of peroxide.

[Marc.The.Shark]

Tibbsy, I've been running mine(mini) about a week now & have used roughly 1/2 of the 4.9%. Haven't seen a huge change in algae on my glass as of yet, although my water seems to b pretty clear, don't know if that's attributable to the Oxydator or not. Mine is in the sump, 1st chamber after filter sock & Chem-Blue, then Cheato, then return. My cheato seems to be whitening in a couple spots, don't know if it's from peroxide(as Kat says) or lower light at the bottom of the ball. I'll continue to use & monitor. After this batch, if I don't see a big change, I'll try 2 catylysts & see if that does anything. I've dipped with 50/50 3% & tank water to kill algae on frags that I've purchased with no I'll effects, and it did eradicate the hair algae. I've read some of the threads on Peroxide dosing for algae problems & don't really see it as a bad thing if done correctly. If this device is truly a small peroxide doser, maybe it's effective in the low dose that it puts out over time with the added benefit of adding some O2 to the water column. Jury's still out with me.

[pal]

Should be able to find food grade peroxide at a health food or supplement store,http://www.foodgrade-hydrogenperoxide.com/id77.html

[metrokat]

What color was the algae on the rock from me?

[tibbsy07]

Tibbsy, I've been running mine(mini) about a week now & have used roughly 1/2 of the 4.9%. Haven't seen a huge change in algae on my glass as of yet, although my water seems to b pretty clear, don't know if that's attributable to the Oxydator or not. Mine is in the sump, 1st chamber after filter sock & Chem-Blue, then Cheato, then return. My cheato seems to be whitening in a couple spots, don't know if it's from peroxide(as Kat says) or lower light at the bottom of the ball. I'll continue to use & monitor. After this batch, if I don't see a big change, I'll try 2 catylysts & see if that does anything. I've dipped with 50/50 3% & tank water to kill algae on frags that I've purchased with no I'll effects, and it did eradicate the hair algae. I've read some of the threads on Peroxide dosing for algae problems & don't really see it as a bad thing if done correctly. If this device is truly a small peroxide doser, maybe it's effective in the low dose that it puts out over time with the added benefit of adding some O2 to the water column. Jury's still out with me.

Agreed. I wasn't having a problem with water clarity, so there is no change for me there. My sand still gets diatoms on it, but less than it did before. My glass and rocks still have plenty of diatoms. There are diatoms growing on the oxydator itself. The algae has grown a bit wild, so I'm going to have to physically remove that piece of rock.

Should be able to find food grade peroxide at a health food or supplement store,http://www.foodgrade-hydrogenperoxide.com/id77.html

None around here.

What color was the algae on the rock from me?

Green and some that is like a pale white/green color. I'll have to take a picture.

[tibbsy07]

So the discussion of oxydators is still raging and it's pretty intense, no matter how hard we all try to remain civil. It's interesting on just exactly what we are arguing at this point - it seems like we're arguing petty nonsense. None of us can actually be RIGHT. None of us can actually be WRONG. There are a few who are arguing science, but clearly don't understand the science behind it - and that irks me a bit, but it's understandable as it actually IS pretty complicated, and even with my science background, I don't 100% understand all that's happening in the system.

 

Apparently, the website faq says that 3-6% is appropriate for the mini - and the mini ships with 4.9% peroxide, which would put it in range. However the patent http://www.google.com/patents/WO2004105476A1?cl=ensays that anything less than 5% will not work because it dilutes too quickly and there isn't enough peroxide to function properly.

 

 

 

The above-mentioned aqueous peroxide solution is preferably a solution of hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) in water. It can be used other peroxide solutions, such as solutions of salts (eg addition salts) of H2O2, which are in aqueous solution in equilibrium with free H2O2. The concentration of the peroxide is preferably from 5-50 wt .-% of peroxide, more preferably 10-30 wt .-%, still more preferably 15-25 wt -.%.

It is to be noted that the inventive method can also be carried out outside of the concentration ranges stated above. A concentration of less than 5 wt .-% of peroxide (preferably H2O2) is, however, impractical because with decreasing concentration, the ratio of the volume of the peroxide solution is always greater releasable therefrom to the total amount of oxygen. Although peroxide solutions, particularly H2O2 solutions with a concentration of more than 50 wt .-% H2O2 have a very good ratio of peroxide to it releasable amount of oxygen, but such solutions with increasing peroxide concentration are increasingly unstable and can contribute to the decomposition . tend Therefore, their use is not without risk by inexperienced users.

[aviator300]

I'm unsure what all the fuss is about. Lots of folks spend thousands of dollars on this particular coral food or that particular coral food, and what about companies getting rich producing things like "Purigen, Chemi pure and the like". Walk into any LFS and see the shelves filled with this supplement and that supplement and all this being bought and used without a shred of scientific evidence or documentation that it works.

 

Let those who want to purchase an Oxydator do so and the rest of us can follow suit or spend our families money on something else. But my goodness, a lot of those posting on this topic may be very under employed? They should be making great money being corporate chemists or working in physics.

[Rehype]

So the discussion of oxydators is still raging and it's pretty intense, no matter how hard we all try to remain civil. It's interesting on just exactly what we are arguing at this point - it seems like we're arguing petty nonsense. None of us can actually be RIGHT. None of us can actually be WRONG. There are a few who are arguing science, but clearly don't understand the science behind it - and that irks me a bit, but it's understandable as it actually IS pretty complicated, and even with my science background, I don't 100% understand all that's happening in the system.

 

Apparently, the website faq says that 3-6% is appropriate for the mini - and the mini ships with 4.9% peroxide, which would put it in range. However the patent http://www.google.com/patents/WO2004105476A1?cl=ensays that anything less than 5% will not work because it dilutes too quickly and there isn't enough peroxide to function properly.

 

 

 

Hey Tibbs its been an interesting discussion up to this point. However at this point its gotten a bit convoluted.

We can agree what the intended purpose of this device is it adds oxygen to the water column right? Yes,Fantastic.

How does it do it exactly? In short terms Peroxide,catalyst,Diving bell, water (Im sure theres a diagram that explains this in detail)

What does that mean for my aquarium? Well my fish can breathe easier right?Yes!

Does it increase/decrease algae? Not clear...seems to depends on the tank and existing parameters.

Does it affect sensitive animals? Possibly seems to depend on the concentration of H2O2

Does it affect PH? Not Clear

Does it effect CO2 in some way? Not Clear

Does it affect ORP? Yes because peroxide is an oxidizing agent

Are trace amounts of Peroxide leaked into your tank? Yes. Although this continues to be debated its has been confirmed by the makers of this product.

Are these trace amounts dangerous? For the most part no but depending on the concentration of H202 more sensitive animals may react negatively

Does it improve water clarity? Yes

[tibbsy07]

Hey Tibbs its been an interesting discussion up to this point. However at this point its gotten a bit convoluted.

We can agree what the intended purpose of this device is it adds oxygen to the water column right? Yes,Fantastic.

How does it do it exactly? In short terms Peroxide,catalyst,Diving bell, water (Im sure theres a diagram that explains this in detail)

What does that mean for my aquarium? Well my fish can breathe easier right?Yes!

Does it increase/decrease algae? Not clear...seems to depends on the tank and existing parameters.

Does it affect sensitive animals? Possibly seems to depend on the concentration of H2O2

Does it affect PH? Not Clear

Does it effect CO2 in some way? Not Clear

Does it affect ORP? Yes because peroxide is an oxidizing agent

Are trace amounts of Peroxide leaked into your tank? Yes. Although this continues to be debated its has been confirmed by the makers of this product.

Are these trace amounts dangerous? For the most part no but depending on the concentration of H202 more sensitive animals may react negatively

Does it improve water clarity? Yes

Lol yep, it really seems we are arguing nonsense now. we have no real ways of measuring the things we don't know, so it's all speculation based on education and experience. Neill posted a good response in which he describes the oxydator how the creator, Sochting, developed it. I think, as I have said, it's a combination of many many different things, and that what works for atoll and Albert may not work for me. It doesn't make either experience invalid. I am just really getting tired of people stating things as facts in this hobby when in reality they aren't facts. I think it's harmful.

[Rehype]

I am just really getting tired of people stating things as facts in this hobby when in reality they aren't facts. I think it's harmful.

 

Agreed. Well I ordered one and it came in the other day I plan to document my experiences thoroughly in my thread. Im very curious to see its effect on ORP an PH in my tank.

[Neill.w]

Lol yep, it really seems we are arguing nonsense now. we have no real ways of measuring the things we don't know, so it's all speculation based on education and experience. Neill posted a good response in which he describes the oxydator how the creator, Sochting, developed it. I think, as I have said, it's a combination of many many different things, and that what works for atoll and Albert may not work for me. It doesn't make either experience invalid. I am just really getting tired of people stating things as facts in this hobby when in reality they aren't facts. I think it's harmful.

 

Could not agree more :-)

[tibbsy07]

Here is a picture (as best as I can get) of the algae. It is the closest livestock, except the gsp, to the oxydator.

 

You can see both types, though the thin hair algae is harder to see. You can also see the furious Xenia in the back

[tibbsy07]

I went to a VERY cool talk on circadian rhythms in cyanobacteria yesterday. A world-leading expert in the subject came and gave a great talk. Her name is Susan Golden and she works at UCSD on the freshwater cyanobacterium Synechococcus elongatus. There are 2 protiens, KiaA, KiaB, and KiaC that control the 24 hour cycle. Circadian rhythm is inherited via DNA, and each daughter cell knows EXACTLY what time the mother cell thought it was, so they are all synced. It's very VERY cool. They measure gene expression as well as glycogen storage (important for nutrient storage) and it all cycles, quite literally, up and down over a 24 hour period. It's such a strong action and driven entirely by these 3 proteins, that you can actually take the 3 proteins by themselves, stick them in a tube and watch them interact off and on over the 24 hour period in the exact same cyclical way they do in the cells. It's CRAZY!

 

So it turns out that the light/dark cycles help to set the circadian clock, but that once the signal starts to say "Ok, start the 24 hour cycle.... NOW" from the light, the whole circadian process acts independently. It's really, really cool.

 

One thing that I found interesting, though, was that even though the marine cousin of the S. elongatus, the cyano we end up with in our tanks and that is a major player in the oceans, has the same 3 genes - no one has studied it! We have no idea what is going on in the marine cyanobacteria Synechococcus spp. I'm really intrigued by this and what it may ultimately mean for circadian rhythms in our tanks.

[amphipod]

That's pretty cool, it probably keeps the bacteria more efficient and prepared for the light. What else was said during the talk?

[tibbsy07]

That's pretty cool, it probably keeps the bacteria more efficient and prepared for the light. What else was said during the talk?

The talk was pretty much entirely on circadian rhythm in this bacteria, how it controls a lot, and that it's very dependable and efficient. There is a lot of data, if you want to read up on it search for Susan Golden on Google Scholar. She's a big name so it shouldn't be hard to find her work.

[tibbsy07]

My tank is collapsing on itself. Everything is ticked off right now. I can;t figure it out. I'll need to test water parameters when I get home, but it's like I bombarded the tank with something. Xenia are closed. Zoas are ticked off. Mushrooms and rics are all detaching and trying to move to new spots, acan is ok, gorg is all closed up, kenya trees and palys are shrunken, too. GSP is fine, but that stuff always is, so...

[Marc.The.Shark]

Take the Oxydator out & see if everything returns to normal after a few days.

[dillct]

Are you sure those are xenia? From the way they branch they look like cespitularia (often sold as xenia). I had some in my tank once, very nice color but they never seem to open fully or pulse like xenia does.

[Rehype]

My tank is collapsing on itself. Everything is ticked off right now. I can;t figure it out. I'll need to test water parameters when I get home, but it's like I bombarded the tank with something. Xenia are closed. Zoas are ticked off. Mushrooms and rics are all detaching and trying to move to new spots, acan is ok, gorg is all closed up, kenya trees and palys are shrunken, too. GSP is fine, but that stuff always is, so...

 

oh that sucks do you think the oxydator has anything to do with it?

[tibbsy07]

Take the Oxydator out & see if everything returns to normal after a few days.

Probably going to. Ugh.

 

Are you sure those are xenia? From the way they branch they look like cespitularia (often sold as xenia). I had some in my tank once, very nice color but they never seem to open fully or pulse like xenia does.

I thought they were. They pulse when they are happy and they open really well, too.

 

 

oh that sucks do you think the oxydator has anything to do with it?

Not sure. Possibly as the concentration is so low I think it's just trickling out not really undergoing the catalysis. I also added phosguard back to help pull some silicates out of the water to try and help with the diatoms. I think I can take that stuff out now. It's always so finnicky. I think I'm going to go to phosphate Rx for phosphate removal. Melev's Reef has a lot of success with that stuff. But I am not having phosphate problems so I think that by adding the phosguard back to help remove silicates (the seachem website says it removes phosphates and silicate), I've hurt more than I helped. I think I need to get rid of this stuff. never seems to work.

[Fishstiks]

When did you put the phosguard in? I tried to use phosguard once to help with silcates, but it pissed off all my corals, big time. Similar to your description, my zoos all closed up and my other corals were just generally unhappy looking.

I removed the phosguard, did a water change, and everything started perking back up. Since then, I have steered clear of it, only using chemipure and purigen. Maybe the phosguard is pissing off your corals.

[CronicReefer]

When did you put the phosguard in? I tried to use phosguard once to help with silcates, but it pissed off all my corals, big time. Similar to your description, my zoos all closed up and my other corals were just generally unhappy looking.

I removed the phosguard, did a water change, and everything started perking back up. Since then, I have steered clear of it, only using chemipure and purigen. Maybe the phosguard is pissing off your corals.

I too had this same issue. It's why I stopped using it. ExtraxPhos is a much better product, I run it 24/7 with zero issues.