THE OFFICIAL ASK ALBERT THIEL THREAD

[albertthiel]

Pictures I posted ... as I look at the pics I posted yesterday I think I have to "learn" how to take better ones so they come out better and sharper ...

 

Although all corals look great and nice and wide open, the shots I took did not come out as well as I would have liked them to come out ... so you can really see what they look like.

 

I'll try and get some better ones today ... I guess using an iPhone does not really do the job all that well unfortunately.

 

Albert

[rick12]

I am curious how my macro tank will fair with the Oxydator "D" size.

It is a 40g with macros, a few mushroom frags, a Duncan frag, and chalice frag. No fish. I am going to start with 3%.

Still early here 7:30am waiting for the stores to open

R.

[albertthiel]

I am curious how my macro tank will fair with the Oxydator "D" size. It is a 40g with macros, a few mushroom frags, a Duncan frag, and chalice frag. No fish. I am going to start with 3%. Still early here 7:30am waiting for the stores to open R.

 

They should do just fine with the 3% and you should start seeing some improvement after the Oxydator has been in the tank for a few hours but more than likely a little longer.

 

That is how I started also with a fairly low load as well and it did not take all that long for everything to start looking better Rick.

 

When you first put it in you will see some large bubbles comes out of it but that will not last for very long, and then it will start to produce real small ones that are actually so small that they are hard to see.

 

The result will be positive for sure so go ahead once you can get the peroxide and keep us posted on how things are going for you.

 

Note that if your water is fairly high in DOC you may see a stream of small bubbles come out of it for a few minutes, and then that will stop and the device will start to operate in the manner described : real tiny bubbles added to the water continuously but that are so small that they will be hard to see. To see them I had to use a flashlight at various angles so I could actually see them, but they are mostly smaller than this dot : .

 

Albert

[Paul.b]

It only has few parts Paul, a base that is heavy to hold it in place, the cup that holds the peroxide, the catalyst (very small) and a plastic insert in the base. I'll take pics of them and post them a little later this morning ..

 

Albert

 

I studied the thing and found a much easier way to build it for about a buck, maybe 2. I know what the catalyst is and I will build one as soon as I get 5 minutes. I want to first use it in my worm tank. Worms love technology, it perks them right up. If it doesn't kill the worms, then I will make a larger one for my tank.

In my workshop I can build a space shuttle but NASA hasn't called me yet so I have room for an oxydator.

[albertthiel]

I studied the thing and found a much easier way to build it for about a buck, maybe 2. I know what the catalyst is and I will build one as soon as I get 5 minutes. I want to first use it in my worm tank. Worms love technology, it perks them right up. If it doesn't kill the worms, then I will make a larger one for my tank.

In my workshop I can build a space shuttle but NASA hasn't called me yet so I have room for an oxydator.

 

Sounds like a plan Paul ... and once you have one built .. let us know ... and it should not kill your worms unless you use too strong a solution of peroxide ...

 

Can't wait to see what you came up with ... Your inventor thinking must have been at work again ... !

 

Albert

[Paul.b]

OK it is built. it took almost 4 minutes. The little sealant I used is drying but in about 15 minutes I will try it out. I assume if I see tiny bubbles coming from it, that will mean it is working. I may have to tweek a few things but I am fairly confident this will work. My worms will be so happy.

I have also determined that is is easier and safer to build this so it hangs in the tank instead of sitting on the bottom, this makes construction a "little" easier, because less weights, but the main reason is that it can't turn over. You don't want one of these things turning over or some peroxide may leak into the tank.

[albertthiel]

Dottybacks are great but be careful which ones You Add

 

© TFH

 

Link : http://www.tfhmagazine.com/details/articles/dottybackschoose-carefully.htm

 

Albert

[jedimasterben]

I want to know what that damn catalyst is. I know what it does (prolongs the reaction, making it take much longer for the peroxide to break down), and have a few ideas as to what it may be.

[albertthiel]

OK it is built. it took almost 4 minutes. The little sealant I used is drying but in about 15 minutes I will try it out. I assume if I see tiny bubbles coming from it, that will mean it is working. I may have to tweek a few things but I am fairly confident this will work. My worms will be so happy.

I have also determined that is is easier and safer to build this so it hangs in the tank instead of sitting on the bottom, this makes construction a "little" easier, because less weights, but the main reason is that it can't turn over. You don't want one of these things turning over or some peroxide may leak into the tank.

 

That was quick ... and yes hanging it is not a bad idea but the weight of the ceramic base is such that it is highly unlikely to fall over, of course if you have Urchins in the tank as you do you never know :-)

 

Can wait to see what it looks like, and how it is working for you. Usually at first you see a few large bubbles and then after a while the bubbles get real small and actually real hard to see. I gather you are using 3% peroxide for now. In a large tank you will need a large one and possibly stronger peroxide and more of the catalyst ... you will have to determine that based on its effect and how fast the container holding the peroxide empties itself ... in the beginning as you may have a high DOC it may produces a lot of small bubbles in a wide stream coming out of the device till it stabilizes itself and that is normal.

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

I want to know what that damn catalyst is. I know what it does (prolongs the reaction, making it take much longer for the peroxide to break down), and have a few ideas as to what it may be.

 

So what do you think it is Ben, I tried a whole number of them that work but some work better than others. Which one did you have in mind ?

 

The one used by them is a little bar that is black and seems to be a ceramic but compressed and with something else in it.

 

What did you come up with ? PM me if you don't want to post it here.

 

Albert

[Paul.b]

Well it has been producing a nice stream of bubbles for 15 minutes so I think all is well. I could easily place it on the gravel but I build for fail safe only. We always built things "Fail Safe" in construction which means if it fails, nothing will happen. When we installed fail safe locks, that means, if the thing breaks or the power goes off, you will be able to get out.

Hanging this device rather than sitting it on the gravel is a fail safe way to do it because if the thing "can" tip over, it will.

Also if I hang it, I can put it in the rear near the top where it is dark and I can't really see it, it is also easier to replace the solution.

Before I take a picture of add the details I want to test it for a while to make sure it keeps working and there are no surprises.

Right now I just have it running in a container of salt water.

[albertthiel]

Well it has been producing a nice stream of bubbles for 15 minutes so I think all is well. I could easily place it on the gravel but I build for fail safe only. We always built things "Fail Safe" in construction which means if it fails, nothing will happen. When we installed fail safe locks, that means, if the thing breaks or the power goes off, you will be able to get out.

Hanging this device rather than sitting it on the gravel is a fail safe way to do it because if the thing "can" tip over, it will.

Also if I hang it, I can put it in the rear near the top where it is dark and I can't really see it, it is also easier to replace the solution.

Before I take a picture of add the details I want to test it for a while to make sure it keeps working and there are no surprises.

Right now I just have it running in a container of salt water.

 

Sound like it is working indeed ... and yes Murphy's law would confirm what you say ... if it can fall over at some point it will :-)

 

Good idea to test it in a bucket of water first to see whether it works.

 

I sent you a PM btw ...

 

Albert

[Paul.b]

I also sent you a PM.

I am going out now to buy some equipment so I can build another one. The stuff I used was old. discarded stuff and I want to make a little better one. I also want to buy some worms, can't have too many worms.

[Paul.b]

Today was a day of experiments, one worked and one didn't. The oxidator is a simple thing but I tried to build a vacation feeder with fake worms. I wanted the thing to produce fake worms that look like live worms. I got that part working and they do look like real worms. The only problem is that the fish don't like it much. My copperband tried some and shoot me a nasty look, but he did swallow it. The gobies reluctantly eat it and so do the cardinals but by the expression on their faces, they don't like it much. The "worms" are made out of peanut butter. Peanut butter is a complete food that does not go bad so you don't have to freeze it. Of course, if they liked it, it would be more beneficial. Yeah, I know.

[albertthiel]

I also sent you a PM.

I am going out now to buy some equipment so I can build another one. The stuff I used was old. discarded stuff and I want to make a little better one. I also want to buy some worms, can't have too many worms.

 

Yes I got yours and answered .... I guess we'll hear back from you later ... The compound needed is not that easy to come by nowadays as I stated.

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

Today was a day of experiments, one worked and one didn't. The oxidator is a simple thing but I tried to build a vacation feeder with fake worms. I wanted the thing to produce fake worms that look like live worms. I got that part working and they do look like real worms. The only problem is that the fish don't like it much. My copperband tried some and shoot me a nasty look, but he did swallow it. The gobies reluctantly eat it and so do the cardinals but by the expression on their faces, they don't like it much. The "worms" are made out of peanut butter. Peanut butter is a complete food that does not go bad so you don't have to freeze it. Of course, if they liked it, it would be more beneficial. Yeah, I know.

 

Yes it looks like it is the day of experiments indeed ... guess the feeder worked but you say they don't like it but they do eat it so at least they are not spitting it back out ... and if they eat it they must be getting the benefit of it ... how did you come up with that idea ... not on the reef I know :-)

 

How small are the pieces you feed ... and do you change the color or not ? Do you mold it to look long and thin like the worms ? Just curious ... you know "enquiring minds want to know"

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

Pterois and Dendrochirus Lionfish Pics - Clickable for larger Views

 

For those interested in Lionfish large and small, including a whole number of the Dwarf ones.

 

Link : http://www.diverosa.com/categories/Lionfish.htm

 

Albert

[Paul.b]

Yes it looks like it is the day of experiments indeed ... guess the feeder worked but you say they don't like it but they do eat it so at least they are not spitting it back out ... and if they eat it they must be getting the benefit of it ... how did you come up with that idea ... not on the reef I know :-)

 

How small are the pieces you feed ... and do you change the color or not ? Do you mold it to look long and thin like the worms ? Just curious ... you know "enquiring minds want to know"

 

Albert

These things come to me out of the blue. I was eating peanut butter and noticed how much it has the same color of worms, then I remembered reading that peanut butter is a complete food and one of the only foods that does not require refrigeration so what the hell.

I squeeze it out of a hypodermic with out the needle, just a tube so it comes out looking like a worm.

 

I have a stupid question about this oxidator. Why does it have to be submersed in the tank? Why can't it be outside the tank with a hose going into the tank? It is basically just a thing to make oxygen, correct? So if I had a small oxygen tank outside the tank, I wouldn't need to put the tank in the water, I would just connect a hose to it. Why can't I do this with the oxidator?

Then I coud cut down the construction time from 5 minutes to 4 minutes and build it for fifty cents instead of a buck.

I will build a few today. My worm tank only has about 4" of water in it and the device I built is 5" high so I have to put it outside the tank to make it work. The first one is still bubbling away. I have to go out and get the hydrogen peroxide.

[albertthiel]

These things come to me out of the blue. I was eating peanut butter and noticed how much it has the same color of worms, then I remembered reading that peanut butter is a complete food and one of the only foods that does not require refrigeration so what the hell.

I squeeze it out of a hypodermic with out the needle, just a tube so it comes out looking like a worm.

 

Interesting ... so the fish eat it .. it will be interesting to see how they do on it and whether you can feed it to corals and whether they eat it .. that would be some interesting fact ... I don't think I have any here or I would try it right away but I'll have to get it from the store and see what it does ...

 

I have a stupid question about this oxidator. Why does it have to be submersed in the tank? Why can't it be outside the tank with a hose going into the tank? It is basically just a thing to make oxygen, correct? So if I had a small oxygen tank outside the tank, I wouldn't need to put the tank in the water, I would just connect a hose to it. Why can't I do this with the oxidator?

Then I coud cut down the construction time from 5 minutes to 4 minutes and build it for fifty cents instead of a buck.

I will build a few today. My worm tank only has about 4" of water in it and the device I built is 5" high so I have to put it outside the tank to make it work. The first one is still bubbling away. I have to go out and get the hydrogen peroxide.

 

Yes that is a good question indeed ... it seems to have to do with "pressure" and when you put it outside of the tank not enough pressure builds up quickly and once it builds up all you get out of the container will be large bubbles which rise immediately to the surface and do not mix with the water. I tried it :-) You do not get those tiny tiny bubbles.

 

Also if you attach an airstone of any kind you do not get tiny bubbles either and those are the ones you want as they are the ones that mix into the water and oxidize DOC etc ... it sounds like it would be a good idea but I tried it in various ways and could never get the tiny bubbles that are really the benefit of using the Oxydator.

 

Right now I am running an outside container with a little 4% peroxide and a strong catalyst to see how long it will produce bubbles as if the peroxide gets broken down and turns into water then unless it also gets out of the container, the solution inside will become weaker and weaker and the reaction will stop.

 

I have actually been wondering how the water gets out of the Oxydator and how the level of peroxide gets lower and lower, and why water gets out and peroxide does not. The density of peroxide is supposed to be higher than pure water so it would sit at the lower part of the container .... but I would have to double check the densities and see how the two mix etc ... and how the chemical reactions inside the container actually proceed.

 

It could be that the water escapes from the container together with the bubbles and that the reason for the upside down pieces of plastic is what makes that happen but I cannot be sure so this is just a guess at it ... But running it into the small container as I am doing where the water cannot escape from should at some point stop working as if water stays inside then the solution will get weaker and weaker and the reaction with the compound I am using should stop ... but after about 20/25 min or so of running it, I still see the bubbles being produced ... so we'll just have to wait and see ...

 

Albert

[atoll]

The Oxydator catalysts are made of some sort of clay with silver added to it and are brown not black well at less all the ones I have had are.

I have tried Oxydators in many different positions including in the sump. In filter compartments at the back of the tank and in mid water in tanks. IME the best positions I have found for them is on the bottom of the tank with a bit of water flow.

[albertthiel]

How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement

 

reposted by request

 

Link : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/2/chemistry

 

Albert

[Paul.b]

The thing is still working, better in fact. As to the airstone and preasure, if the airstone is deep in the tank, smaller bubbles will escape due to the preasure. Near the surface the bubbles will emerge larger. I will build one with an airline to see how it works.

I must be doing something wrong because this really can't be this simple.

According to Wikipedia, one part of hydrogen peroxide turns into 20 parts of oxygen. I think that is what is happening to the water, it is not going anyplace but the water and peroxide together are "becomming" oxygen. Water is partly oxygen anyway.

I looked up 35% solutions of hydrogen peroxide and I can get a gallon for about $50.00. That would last a very long time because you could dilute it.

 

 

The concentrations are sometimes described in terms of the volume of oxygen gas generated; one milliliter of a 20-volume solution generates twenty milliliters of oxygen gas when completely decomposed.

 

I also found out that sodium hypoclorite (or Clorox) mixed with hydrogen peroxite produces much more oxygen but that is for another experiment, maybe tomorrow.

Maybe I will make one of these things and put it in my pocket, then I could stick hoses up my nose and breath pure oxygen.

How cool is that.

Well back to experimenting, my worms can't hide their excitement. I now have a house filled with hydrogen peroxide, worms and tubing.

I may even dose some in my Nano with the macro algae problem.

 

[albertthiel]

The Oxydator catalysts are made of some sort of clay with silver added to it and are brown not black well at less all the ones I have had are.

 

I have tried Oxydators in many different positions including in the sump. In filter compartments at the back of the tank and in mid water in tanks. IME the best positions I have found for them is on the bottom of the tank with a bit of water flow.

 

Well not sure why Les but mine looks black but when I take the Oxydator out I am going to look at it with a magnifying glass as you may be right as looking at it from afar it looks black but when I take a picture it looks brownish.

 

I have also tried it in many different spots as you well know when I was trying to make one and I could never get enough pressure as you will remember ... but maybe I was not using a good enough catalyst to produce more oxygen and enough pressure.

 

I am still running the other catalyst in a small bottle with peroxide, and it is still bubbling and the level of peroxide is getting lower ...

 

Based on what I found in a technical article, the breakdown produces some kind of water vapor which mixes with the oxygen and so maybe there is no actual water produced ... as Paul mentions in his post ... but water vapor and oxygen.

 

Whether setting it up with a long airline tubing hose and deep in the water will work I am not sure .. I tried that too and it did not work either, but now that I have a much better catalyst, I may try that again and see what happens, and I am sure Paul will try it as well with his catalyst and see whether he can get it to work.

 

For those who are wondering why we (Paul and I) do not mention the actual catalysts (yet) is simple: just in case they cause issues we do not want people to run into problems in their tanks. We both use a different one btw.

 

And on the placement of the Oxydator : yes Les putting it at the bottom seems to be what works best and in the case of the Model D and the larger one that you have, it is weighted down so well that it is unlikely to fall over as the base is not only heavy, but wide as well.

 

I guess that after weeks and weeks, if not months, of talking about them we are suddenly getting a good deal of reaction between your posts, Paul and the testing he is doing, and mine and my additional testing.

 

BTW I sent the new importer an email yesterday but did not get a reply yet ...

 

More to come ....

 

Here is a pic of the small container I am testing the stronger catalyst on : you can see the bubbling if you look real close but not very well ... the bubbles are so small that they are hard to get an image of. Note the reflection of the bubbles at the bottom, and the ones that look like foam on the top of the peroxide.

 

 

 

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

The thing is still working, better in fact. As to the airstone and preasure, if the airstone is deep in the tank, smaller bubbles will escape due to the preasure. Near the surface the bubbles will emerge larger. I will build one with an airline to see how it works.

I must be doing something wrong because this really can't be this simple.

 

According to Wikipedia, one part of hydrogen peroxide turns into 20 parts of oxygen. I think that is what is happening to the water, it is not going anyplace but the water and peroxide together are "becomming" oxygen. Water is partly oxygen anyway.

 

I looked up 35% solutions of hydrogen peroxide and I can get a gallon for about $50.00. That would last a very long time because you could dilute it.

 

I also found out that sodium hypoclorite (or Clorox) mixed with hydrogen peroxite produces much more oxygen but that is for another experiment, maybe tomorrow.

Maybe I will make one of these things and put it in my pocket, then I could stick hoses up my nose and breath pure oxygen.

How cool is that.

Well back to experimenting, my worms can't hide their excitement. I now have a house filled with hydrogen peroxide, worms and tubing.

 

I may even dose some in my Nano with the macro algae problem.

 

Well I guess we will have to see what happens as every time I tried to get small bubbles I was never able to get them whether the airstone was at the bottom, in the middle or near the top. All I got Paul was large bubbles and infrequently and I was using what you are using as a catalyst.

 

Are you getting small bubbles when the airstone is near the bottom ? And are you using a wooden one or a ceramic one?

 

As to the 35 % ... I bought 100 ml for $15 which when diluted gives me about 3/4 of a liter which should last quite some time but if you buy the gallon ... yes then you are set for a long time although in your large tank you will need a large container to hold the peroxide and it will empty itself more quickly than in a small tank. Note that to prevent the peroxide from breaking down by itself you already know that keeping it in the dark is best, but keeping it in a fridge on top of that is even better.

 

Now on how it breaks down ... see my previous message ... some kind of water vapor that mixes with the oxygen apparently ... so the peroxide should therefore not loose its strength ... that little container I am running is still showing nice bubble formation and the level of peroxide is definitely going down (I made a mark where it was when I started and it has lost about 1 mm or a little more).

 

The issue with clorox is that the reaction will stop after a while unlike when you use a catalyst that does not break down. Yes more oxygen but it does not last and also you may be producing too much of it too rapidly which may result in an adverse reaction in the tank. A slow but steady nice addition is what works best IME.

 

So are you becoming a "sniffer" :-)

 

And yes that pico definitely needs a ton of oxygen .. and maybe more than that :-)

 

Albert

[Paul.b]

As I suspected, it does work with a tube, I have it working now about 6" deep. I don't know how deep I can get it to work but I would imagine if I wait a while the oxygen produced will be under enough preasure to go to the bottom of my tank, if not, I will have to submerge the entire unit like the commercial ones.

I also don't like the stream of bubbles and feel this is not a great way to introduce oxygen into the tank. Even though the bubbles are tiny, they come to the surface and burst there by wasting most of the gas. I want the oxygen to infuse with the water, without becomming obvious bubbles.

That will be a little trickier but hopefully not insurmountable.

Also in freshwater like I have it now in my worm tank, the bubbles will be much larger, that is why we don't use skimmers in fresh water tanks, they don't work because of this.