THE OFFICIAL ASK ALBERT THIEL THREAD

[albertthiel]

Ear Shaped Sponges - Follow up on Paul's Posting on Moorish Idols

 

© Tony Wu for the photographs

 

Paul do the sponges you found and that you were feeding to your Moorish Idols look anything like these:

 

 

 

 

 

And on a different note ... My Citron Goby in one of his favorite spots

 

 

Albert

Edited October 27, 2012 by albertthiel

[Paul.b]

Paul do the sponges you found and that you were feeding to your Moorish Idols look anything like these:

 

No, but if you sliced that top picture in half horizontally, made it a tan color like human flesh, made it thicker it would be closer. It grows attached to docks so the part attached to the dock will always be flat.

It does not grow out very far from the dock, maybe an inch or so. Some of it is just a coating on the wooden dock and it can be harvested by just tearing it off with your hands. It also grows in association with all sorts of other stuff including sea squirts and other sponges and algae so it needs a little cleaning after harvest.

When you put it in a bucket after you collect it it looks (I am afraid to say) like puke.

I will look for the picture but the picture is it in a bucket. I don't have a picture of it in the water.

It grows on the docks behind me and my Grand Daughter here.

 

[albertthiel]

No, but if you sliced that top picture in half horizontally, made it a tan color like human flesh, made it thicker it would be closer. It grows attached to docks so the part attached to the dock will always be flat.

It does not grow out very far from the dock, maybe an inch or so. Some of it is just a coating on the wooden dock and it can be harvested by just tearing it off with your hands. It also grows in association with all sorts of other stuff including sea squirts and other sponges and algae so it needs a little cleaning after harvest.

When you put it in a bucket after you collect it it looks (I am afraid to say) like puke.

I will look for the picture but the picture is it in a bucket. I don't have a picture of it in the water.

It grows on the docks behind me and my Grand Daughter here.

 

 

Thanks for the further information ... it may be hard to identify what sponge it is but I'll see what I can find based on the description you gave.

 

Wow nice Grand Daughter and nice Grand Daddy :-) ...

 

Albert

[Paul.b]

It should not be to hard because only two sponges that I know of are very common here in New York. It is not tropical and disappears in the winter. The flaoting docks here must be hauled occasionally to clean off the growth or the docks will sink. Thats how much of this stuff grows here, it is very common.

I will also look it up.

 

It only grows with in a few inches of the surface so must be light sensitive.

[albertthiel]

It should not be to hard because only two sponges that I know of are very common here in New York. It is not tropical and disappears in the winter. The flaoting docks here must be hauled occasionally to clean off the growth or the docks will sink. Thats how much of this stuff grows here, it is very common.

I will also look it up.

 

It only grows with in a few inches of the surface so must be light sensitive.

 

Thanks ... I looked some more but have not come up with anything yet other than a Potato sponge but that one does not look like what you describe although it appears to grow in the areas you indicated.

 

Thanks for looking some more yourself and I'll do the same as I'd like to find out what it actually is.

 

Albert

[Paul.b]

Next summer come on my boat and I will get you some

 

[albertthiel]

Next summer come on my boat and I will get you some

 

 

That sounds like a plan Paul ... I did some more searches but have not come up with a link that shows me anything like what you describe ... you wrote an article about it on Reef Central but when I click on the link, the file is no longer available and I was hoping to see that one as it may have had picture of it in the posts.

 

Oh well, we'll figure it out somehow ...

 

Albert

[Paul.b]

I looked for those sponge pictures but still can't find them. I have many years of pictures to search. But as I said, the pictures I have are of it in a bucket and you will not get much information from that as it is all torn up.

[Paul.b]

Here is a quick picture of the sponge. Same color and thickness as an ear.

 

[albertthiel]

Horseshoe Crab - Recently discussed on another Thread

 

So here is some more information on them

 

© thelivingocean

 

 

Horseshoe crabs are among the world's oldest and most fascinating creatures.

 

They are estimated to be at least 300 million years old. The earliest horseshoe crab species were crawling around the Earth's shallow coastal seas for at least 100 million years before the dinosaurs even arrived (which was about 200 million years ago).

 

Since that time, the Earth's land masses have shifted dramatically, thousands of other species have come and gone, but horseshoe crabs have survived and today remain much as they were those millions of years ago.

 

Link : http://tinyurl.com/8ddj2rr

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

Here is a quick picture of the sponge. Same color and thickness as an ear.

 

 

Thanks Paul and yes I realize that finding something amongst thousands of pictures is not that easy a thing to do, especially after changing computers. I have the same problem. I have hundreds and hundred of pictures on ZIP drives but going through gigabytes of stored pictures would take me forever ...

 

Thanks for the drawing.

 

BTW did you ever upload one to photobucket as if you did maybe I can find it there. Just let me know and I will look for it.

 

I found one that grows on the NY coastline but it is referred to as the "Stinking" sponge and it is brown and does not match your description so I do not think that is the one. Anyway we'll figure it out at some point as it puts a different light on those who keep or want to keep Moorish Idols in FOWLR tanks (large ones) and may be helpful to them as long as they can get hold of some of those sponges

 

Maybe you should get into selling them ... who knows you may get some good number of orders after you write another article about them and maybe a Video that shows how the Moorish Idols go crazy for them. Just a thought ....

 

Albert

Edited October 27, 2012 by albertthiel

[Kfmmartin19]

That is indeed hard to understand Kfmartin1996 ... are you sure they are lost? Did you find the bodies or the remnants of them?

 

Did they jump out of the tank due to the Clown chasing them? Do you have a net over the tank, in which case jumping would not have been possible if the net had tight mesh, and if they could not jump out, if the fish have gone missing they must be in the aquarium, either alive or not ...

 

And if they are not alive you should be able to find the corpses, as even if you have anything in the tank that would consume dead fish, it would IMO not devour 3 of them on one night, that is unless you have some very large crab, or something in the tank e.g. a Mantis shrimp,

 

I know there has been a discussion about that large crab some time ago, but I thought we sort of all come to the conclusion that there was not such a large "monster" crab (the ones you found the claws of and posted pics of) in your tank.

 

This is really getting to be a "mystery" indeed ....

 

Have you really searched for the fish ? At this point to be honest with you and to find out what is going on, I would get a big pail and put saltwater in it, and start taking all the rock out of the aquarium and closely inspect it to make sure nothing is hiding in it.

 

As you take rock out you may find the corpses or you may find the fish alive but in hiding between or behind or even underneath the rocks ... but as you take more and more rock out you should be able to figure out what is going on.

 

That seems to me to be the only thing you can do at this point.

 

What is your opinion and what are you going to do to figure this out once and for all, as I honestly feel that for your own good and that of your fish (current and future ones) that you need to resolve this.

 

I remember years ago in a FOWLR tank I went through something similar (losing a fish every few days, and not just small one I might say), and since I could not figure it out either, I took all the rock out of the tank and did as I wrote above.

 

Eventually I found that the problem was that I had 2 larger sized crabs in the tank that had probably come in as small ones hiding in the rock but had grown over time, and when they were large enough and the other food stuff they could get hold off was not sufficient for them any longer, they started going after my fish.

 

After I removed the crabs I just put everything back together making sure there were no other small one hiding in the rocks and from then on after replacing missing fish, everything was fine,

 

You may be at the point IMO where you have to take that tank totally apart too and figure out what is really the cause of all of this.

 

Seems to me that just the Clown behavior is not the only thing going on. Losing that many fish in such a short period of time would IMO indicate that something else is happening.

 

Keep us posted

 

Albert

 

 

 

 

 

 

@ Paul.B

 

Old school or not Paul ... do share, and even if some who read what you share have reservations about it, the fact that your tank has been running so well, and for so long (decades - not years) is proof that even old methods DO work ... and cannot just be written off because they are "old methods" ...

 

That's how it all started, and even if a lot of things have changed, the basics still remain the same ...

 

Thanks

 

Albert

They did not jump. The tank actually has a top (it's a biocube). Plus the clown only ever chases the cherub. I have to agree with u, I think the clown is innocent. Basically I agree that I am going to have to tear this tank apart...and it's unfortunate cuz I loooooove my aquascape! But before I do that I'm thinking I will try to set up a video cam at night or just stay up trying to catch it, to verify 100% this crab is in there. I will of course not add any fish until I resolve this problem. Appreciate your help Albert! If u have any other suggestions I would love to hear them!

[albertthiel]

They did not jump. The tank actually has a top (it's a biocube). Plus the clown only ever chases the cherub. I have to agree with u, I think the clown is innocent. Basically I agree that I am going to have to tear this tank apart...and it's unfortunate cuz I loooooove my aquascape! But before I do that I'm thinking I will try to set up a video cam at night or just stay up trying to catch it, to verify 100% this crab is in there. I will of course not add any fish until I resolve this problem. Appreciate your help Albert! If u have any other suggestions I would love to hear them!

 

At this point no other suggestions than the ones I made as I think that only taking the rocks out one by one is what is going to let you figure out whether there is "something" in that tank that is killing off your fish.

 

If there is such a "thing" you may not have to take all the rocks out as you may be able to see what is going on after you take out a few ... not sure ... but in the worst of all cases all the rocks will have to come out.

 

Take a few pictures of your scape and then when you put things back in you can look at the pictures to duplicate the scape you had.

 

Setting up the cam as I read is an idea but will it pick up what is happening when everything in the room where the tank is, is pitchblack dark ... not sure the cam will do that but it is worth a try and you may want to leave on a low level light so the cam can actually pick up what is going on and record it.

 

Hopefully that will tell you what is happening but if you do see a crab or whatever to get it out, you may still have to remove the rocks unfortunately IMO.

 

Anyway time will tell ... keep us posted .. and yes do not add anything to the tank unless it is a monster that can eat whatever other monster is in your tank ... but no just kidding ... you are right do not add anything till you have it figured out.

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

Mods Made to my Red Sea Prizm Pro

 

I have seen a few posts about this skimmer and issues that owners seemed to have with it.

 

I never had issues with the pump but attaching it correctly was key of course

 

To reduce the noise from the venturi intake, noise posts I saw, I attached an airline connector little piece to the black intake and that cut out all of the noise

 

And as at times small bubbles would get to the last chamber and then get into the aquarium, I inserted the GAC container that came with the skimmer and filled it with activated carbon, and after that I no longer had issues with bubbles getting into the tank.

 

I realize that there is no provision made for excess skimmate collecting in the cup, which could make it overflow if too much gets into it, especially if the skimmer starts skiiming wet foam and the chamber fills quickly.

 

All one needs to go is drill a hole in the side and insert a pice of tubing that goes to a larger collection vessel and the overflow issue will be eliminated.

 

Thought I would share the mods I made in case others have similar issues, and have not been able to resolve them.

 

Note that if you calcium levels are high, deposits may form on the impeller area of the pump and it is therefore a good idea to remove the skimmer maybe once a week, clean it completely, and also clean the impeller area of the pump so it will not make any noise or get stuck and not rotate as it should.

 

I have been quite satisfied with the Prizm, and find that for an HOB skimmer it is a good buy for the price.

 

This is FWIW and is what I did and what my experiences with that skimmer are

 

Albert

[Paul.b]

I really don't want to crawl all over these docks collecting sponges no matter how much I could make on it. I don't think there are that many moorish Idols out there in captivity to warrant that.

People think I am wierd enough already.

 

Speaking of horseshoe crabs, this tidepool that I am in contains literaly millions of tiny horseshoe crabs.

They are about 1/8th of an inch and cover the mud flats at low tide.

This year I saw none of them and I reported that to one agency that monitors that sort of thing. I don't know what happened to them but I have a theory. We have an explosion of invasive japanese Shore crabs that are covering everything. I mean everything. On my mooring lines you could collect at least 100 of them on every foot of line. They get about 1 1/2" across and eat anything probably including baby horseshoe crabs. They completely decimated the local green crabs and most of the fiddler crabs that live here.

They look just like Sally Lightfoot crabs but a little thicker. They also have the same habit of climbing out on land and they climb out of my tank when I keep them. Very hardy but annoying little suckers.

They came here on a ship about 30 years ago.

They are named Hemigraspis something.

Here is an article:

Japanese shore crabs make a home for themselves in Long Island Sound, more than 6,000 miles away.

 

These are no exotic seafood delicacies.

 

Yet Congress is moving to address the problem at the pace of a plain old garden snail.

 

With time for passing laws rapidly diminishing in this election year, two powerful Senate committee chairmen are at loggerheads over legislation to set the first federal clean-up standards for the large oceangoing ships on which aquatic invasive species hitch a ride to U.S. shores.

 

Edited October 27, 2012 by Paul.b

[Kfmmartin19]

Well Albert, went down to look at the tank and find there was a minor avalanche and my beautiful arch aquascape is ruined. What better time to tear the tank apart? When I do, any advice as to how to look or just inspect each rock individually? What if I can't find it? Safe to say I'm just missing it? Could I do freshwater dips to try to get it off? Or is that too destructive? U think it could be in the sand? I would have to be really careful not to stir up the bed after so long and start a mini cycle. Any advice would be great, as I think this will be my best chance to get him! Thanks.

[albertthiel]

I really don't want to crawl all over these docks collecting sponges no matter how much I could make on it. I don't think there are that many moorish Idols out there in captivity to warrant that.

People think I am wierd enough already.

 

Speaking of horseshoe crabs, this tidepool that I am in contains literaly millions of tiny horseshoe crabs.

They are about 1/8th of an inch and cover the mud flats at low tide.

This year I saw none of them and I reported that to one agency that monitors that sort of thing. I don't know what happened to them but I have a theory. We have an explosion of invasive japanese Shore crabs that are covering everything. I mean everything. On my mooring lines you could collect at least 100 of them on every foot of line. They get about 1 1/2" across and eat anything probably including baby horseshoe crabs. They completely decimated the local green crabs and most of the fiddler crabs that live here.

They look just like Sally Lightfoot crabs but a little thicker. They also have the same habit of climbing out on land and they climb out of my tank when I keep them. Very hardy but annoying little suckers.

They came here on a ship about 30 years ago.

They are named Hemigraspis something.

Here is an article:

Yes I do understand and you are probably right that there are not too many Hobbyists who are keeping Moorish Idols left because of all the issues in keeping them alive. In fact I just got back from my LFS to meet up with one of the members of this Forum, David (dling) who was kind enough after he changed his own aquarium to give me a few corals (Cabbage, Pavona, a small Kenya Tree and some more) and looking around the store I did not even see any for sale.

 

I guess that LFS's realize that Moorish Idols are not in that much demand and because of their high price and the difficulties in keeping them even in their own tanks, they just do not bring them in any more unless they have special orders for them.

 

On the Horseshoe Crabs ... I was not aware of that massive migration and invasion from Japan of those crabs you mention and all the damage that they have caused.

 

I'll have to read some more about that a little later as right now I need to deal with acclimating the corals I just got home with that are now in a small container that I am dripping aquarium water into.

 

So more later Paul ... Thanks though for the info and the link etc ...

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

Well Albert, went down to look at the tank and find there was a minor avalanche and my beautiful arch aquascape is ruined. What better time to tear the tank apart? When I do, any advice as to how to look or just inspect each rock individually? What if I can't find it? Safe to say I'm just missing it? Could I do freshwater dips to try to get it off? Or is that too destructive? U think it could be in the sand? I would have to be really careful not to stir up the bed after so long and start a mini cycle. Any advice would be great, as I think this will be my best chance to get him! Thanks.

 

Sorry to read about the scape. I wonder what caused that but it may very well be what has been the reason for your fish losses.

 

I would just remove the rocks one by one and carefully inspect them. Whatever it is that is in that tank, if anything, has got to be large so I am sure you will not miss seeing it when you remove the rocks.

 

I don't think that rinsing will be necessary but if you do see a crab or whatever hiding in a hole or crevice in the rock you will have to pry it out with some tool and once that is done you can put the rock back in the tank.

 

Keep removing one rock after the other until you have them all out if needed and till you find whatever has been causing your fish losses, if anything.

 

If there is such a thing it would be large and you should be able to see it in the sand if that is where it is without having to stir it up. If it is in the sand you can use whatever tool is needed e.g. pliers or another tool, maybe a kitchen one, to remove whatever it is that needs to be removed.

 

I hope you do find whatever it is and do keep us posted and if you find something take some pictures as you said you would so you can post them here.

 

Hopefully you will be able to figure this out now that you have to get the rocks out anyway ...

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

More on the Japanese Green Crab invasion on the US East Coast

 

(this is a follow up on the post by Paul B about this crab invasion)

 

 

There are several articles and this is just one of them but it is quite detailed and shows a number of Pictures for those interested in learning more about this pest, or those who collect off the East Coast Shores so they know what not to collect and recognize what this pest looks like

 

Link : http://www.iisgcp.org/exoticsp/japanese_shore_crab.htm

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

Red Bubble Algae - Rocks removed from my Tank

 

As I am acclimating the corals that David (dling on this forum) so kindly gave me, and for which I want to thank him here on my Thread, I had to make space for the new corals that came of LR that is fairly large, so I removed two rocks so far from the tank, one on which I had seen Red Bubble Algae, and another one that had nothing specific growing on it that I could see that was unwanted in the tank.

 

Below are pictures of the large rock and an enlarged picture of the Red Bubble Algae:

 

 

 

 

Still acclimating the corals and as I looked in the vessel they are in I saw what looks like a small snails which I am going to remove so I can take a closer look at it as it may not be a snail ...

 

Albert

[Paul.b]

Thats it. If anyone wants a fifty gallon drum of these crabs, I need about 5 minutes to fill it.

 

I had some red bubble algae a couple of years ago and it is supposed to be invasive as many of them are. This one colonized a couple of rocks and never went any farther. I kind of like it.

I would not if it covered everything but it is behaving so I don't bother with it.

 

 

Edited October 27, 2012 by Paul.b

[albertthiel]

Thats it. If anyone wants a fifty gallon drum of these crabs, I need about 5 minutes to fill it.

 

I had some red bubble algae a couple of years ago and it is supposed to be invasive as many of them are. This one colonized a couple of rocks and never went any farther. I kind of like it.

I would not if it covered everything but it is behaving so I don't bother with it.

 

Paul :

 

On the Crabs .. thanks but no thanks but I can think of a few people I would send them to (not members on this forum though .. just not so kind people from when I was working in another type of business). Nasty looking things indeed they are.

 

On the Bubble Algae ... you said they just colonized a few rocks and did not spread all over the tank. Did you do anything to prevent their spreading as usually they are quite invasive and grow even when nutrient levels are very low (as they are in my tank).

 

Many who post on the forums we frequent usually indicate that they spread all over their tanks so your statement is surprising but nice to read as if that is the case maybe they are self limiting based on what nutrients they need that are in the water and when the levels get too low they stop spreading. Based on previous experiences that is not what I have noticed though.

 

Any idea why they never spread in your tank ... that would be interesting to know for sure.

 

Thanks

 

Albert

[Paul.b]

On the Bubble Algae ... you said they just colonized a few rocks and did not spread all over the tank. Did you do anything to prevent their spreading

 

Besides using harsh language on them, I did nothing. Nothing eats it either.

I looked it up when I first saw one or two bubbles and it is supposed to be a tank killer. I think I spoke to Bob Goemans about it and he said it is a devastating form of algae. It has even shrunk by about 50% and not one bubble has jumped to any other rocks. At first I did see bubbles on most of the rocks but oddly enough it only grew on the fake cement rocks and not the real rock that I collected. The rock pictured is cement and that is the only place it is growing and even there it is disappearing.

I don't understand it but I wrote an article or thread about this someplace.

This has also occured in my tank with red flatworms. Everyone said to eliminate them with flatworm exit but I just let them be for a few months, they covered every inch of my rock, then in a couple of days, all disappeared. They never harmed anything.

I don't get crazy about these occurances, I am too old for that.

It goes the same for hair algae and cyano, those things just go away by themselves as long as we don't screw it up by adding all sorts of chemicles. They are self limiting and if we remove the dying whatever it is, it will not come back.

This is my reef maybe 15 years ago (I still have that fireclown) It is covered in a nasty hair algae cycle.

The corals never looked better and the algae just disappeared as I knew from experience it would. If you keep a tank long enough it will go through these cycles. Sometimes they last a week, sometimes a year.

I did nothing to eliminate the hair algae either because I am a huge proponent of algae and I feel it removes most unwanted chemicles and adds useful ones. This is just a theory of mine and scientifically you would know the reason much better than I would but from experience I know it to be true.

Edited October 27, 2012 by Paul.b

[albertthiel]

Besides using harsh language on them, I did nothing. Nothing eats it either.

I looked it up when I first saw one or two bubbles and it is supposed to be a tank killer. I think I spoke to Bob Goemans about it and he said it is a devastating form of algae. It has even shrunk by about 50% and not one bubble has jumped to any other rocks. At first I did see bubbles on most of the rocks but oddly enough it only grew on the fake cement rocks and not the real rock that I collected. The rock pictured is cement and that is the only place it is growing and even there it is disappearing.

I don't understand it but I wrote an article or thread about this someplace.

This has also occured in my tank with red flatworms. Everyone said to eliminate them with flatworm exit but I just let them be for a few months, they covered every inch of my rock, then in a couple of days, all disappeared. They never harmed anything.

I don't get crazy about these occurances, I am too old for that.

It goes the same for hair algae and cyano, those things just go away by themselves as long as we don't screw it up by adding all sorts of chemicles. They are self limiting and if we remove the dying whatever it is, it will not come back.

This is my reef maybe 15 years ago (I still have that fireclown) It is covered in a nasty hair algae cycle.

The corals never looked better and the algae just disappeared as I knew from experience it would. If you keep a tank long enough it will go through these cycles. Sometimes they last a week, sometimes a year.

I did nothing to eliminate the hair algae either because I am a huge proponent of algae and I feel it removes most unwanted chemicles and adds useful ones. This is just a theory of mine and scientifically you would know the reason much better than I would but from experience I know it to be true.

 

Thanks Paul for how you view the appearance of algae, bubble and other types and even flatworms .. I know how you think so I am not going to write a long message about what most others' approach would be, as you know what that is and how they think about appearance of what is considered pest algae etc. in their aquariums.

 

Yes tanks do go through cycles indeed but your approach if unconventional but then I think that is also how your entire tank is but then again, its been around "for a while" to use a euphemism so there is not much arguing one can do with your approach ... 40+ years and still the same tank is indeed quite an achievement.

 

I usually do not worry about the red ones and get them out if I see too many, but in my tank they do spread although it does take quite some time so by removing the ones I can see I keep it well under control.

 

This is actually only the second time since early June that I had to remove some red bubble ones.

 

I like your "I don't worry" attitude and do think that some of us, at times, actually more than at times, worry too much when we see something odd in the tank, and start tinkering with it and may, as a result, make things worse.

 

I respect your approach but I am also sure that a lot of readers will disagree with it and want to intervene when they see pest "whatevers".

 

Thanks for your response and your clarification ... it is always a pleasure to read how "calm and composed" you remain about what happens in your tank.

 

I guess it comes down to: Attitude is what it is all about ... whatever happens.

 

Albert

[NanoTopia]

Hi Albert,

 

I have a hitch hiker crab in my reef, it must have been there for quite some time as I have only noticed it last week. I would guess it is approximately 2-3 cm and is very illusive, never comes out in the open. It has black claws and is grey in colour. Sorry, not possible to get a picture, I can hardly see him with my eye let alone get a picture.

 

I am wondering if you know of a good ID site/link for marine reef crabs and could pass it along. I have never seen this species before.

 

Thanks

 

Christine