Please help me stop killing corals

[mcarroll]

2 hours ago, Clown79 said:

Osteo has palytoxin in it.

I think they call is Ovatoxin, but it's nearly identical from what I've read....one of the most toxic substances known.

 

Check out Ovatoxin-a, A Palytoxin Analogue Isolated from Ostreopsis cf. ovata Fukuyo: Cytotoxic Activity and ELISA Detection.

 

They do refer to it as "palytoxin producted by Ostreopsis" in the Wikipedia article on Palytoxin, but I think that's a coincidence of bad paraphrasing from their cited reference.  I've never seen a journal entry say anything other than it's similar/an analog and that it may actually be produced by a bacteria that's common to both dino's and Paly's.

 

I've got a few other good articles saved on the topic of toxins like this, but you might've seen em already: https://reefsuccess.com/page/2/?s=toxin

 

2 hours ago, Amphrites said:

the more-dangerous compounds people recognize Dino's for or anything akin to palytoxin

No reason to doubt that I can see.....side effects like @Clown79 named are semi-common during outbreaks like that, but they aren't always present, and not everyone seems equally sensitive.

[A.m.P]

I might expect them to be somewhat-common in a system a few-hundred gallons deep with aggressive surface agitation, but without an active-vaporizing process and a *very* large surface area most of the agents within toxic algal-blooms are, just like with playtoxin, contained within the animals themselves and absurdly-unlikely to ever even chance upon a sensitive part of one's system without a significant duration, proximity, or volume of exposure... The reason the vast majority of dino-toxins are referred to as "mollusk-toxicity" (reef-sickness, diarrhetic shellfish poisoning, paralytic shellfish poisoning, etc.) is because the most common vector for human illness is via the consumption of animals which have ingested and contain highly-concentrated doses of said compounds.
Though the certain species that Clown had are particularly-nasty and do produce a palytoxin-like-compound... It's impossible to say honestly, but I would be surprised.
Anyway enough thread hijacking XD

[Clown79]

3 hours ago, Amphrites said:

How long did it take for them to become "skeletons", just curious at this point because if it happened quickly I'd almost be tempted to say you might have some kind bacteria or parasitic-organism.

 

I would be really, really tempted to write that off as correlation, not causation. 
No offence but the concentration would just be all wrong unless you constantly vaporized the compounds while in close-proximity, now that's not to say you couldn't have been allergic/sensitive/irritated, but it likely had nothing to do with the more-dangerous compounds people recognize Dino's for or anything akin to palytoxin for that matter.

I have a very sensitive system.

I have to wear gloves when in my tank.

 

It was definitely not a cold. 

 

But I am not getting into the palytoxin debate.

 

 

 

 

[A.m.P]

54 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

I have a very sensitive system.

I have to wear gloves when in my tank.

 

It was definitely not a cold. 

 

But I am not getting into the palytoxin debate.

 

 

 

 

I didn't know it was a contested topic >_< sorry, like I said certainly wasn't trying to accuse anyone of anything either, I can relate to sensitivity (I have asthma, addisons, dysautonomia and a short-list of other-nasties I developed after chancing-through what should have been SDS, all-of-which essentially feed-into-each other)
Anyway, I didn't mean to hit a nerve or insinuate you weren't being accurate, was just surprised and confused.

[Clown79]

20 minutes ago, Amphrites said:

I didn't know it was a contested topic >_< sorry, like I said certainly wasn't trying to accuse anyone of anything either, I can relate to sensitivity (I have asthma, addisons, dysautonomia and a short-list of other-nasties I developed after chancing-through what should have been SDS, all-of-which essentially feed-into-each other)
Anyway, I didn't mean to hit a nerve or insinuate you weren't being accurate, was just surprised and confused.

No no, there was no issue at all on my end.

I just didn't want to hijack the thread with getting into a palytoxin convo.

 

I really can't confirm that it was the cause but I found it really odd that a few days after it started, I got very sick.  it lasted for over a month and as the dino's started going away my symptoms started dying down. 

 

 

 

 

[ElJefe99]

Steering back to the litany of issues that is my tank ... I think it definitely is dinos.  I wasn't able to perform the test, but the images and descriptions match perfectly what I have going on.  @Clown79thank you for the information, and I checked out the lagoon post as advised.  I've set into beating these things by doing the following:

I have removed the bioballs

I have reduced my chaeto down to about a golf ball sized amount - should I fully remove? 

Should I turn off the algae grow lamp I have on my fuge?

I added Marine Snow last night, and will add copepods this afternoon.  How frequently for the Marine Snow?  Daily for now?

I will reduce photo period to 7 hours.

Sucked up loose dinos, filtered and returned water to tank.

Should I turn off protein skimmer, or reduce hours?  

I replaced filter floss last night, and will do every other day (this is not too different from normal for me)

I replaced chemi-pure carbon bag last night, and will do again in 1 week.

I rinsed the open-cell foam block which separates chambers 2 & 3 in new RODI.

 

Some follow up questions: do copepods die off?  How frequently should I feed them marine snow to keep them happy under normal conditions?  Other preferred foods for them?

 

Thanks!  

 

[Clown79]

1 hour ago, ElJefe99 said:

Steering back to the litany of issues that is my tank ... I think it definitely is dinos.  I wasn't able to perform the test, but the images and descriptions match perfectly what I have going on.  @Clown79thank you for the information, and I checked out the lagoon post as advised.  I've set into beating these things by doing the following:

I have removed the bioballs

I have reduced my chaeto down to about a golf ball sized amount - should I fully remove? 

Should I turn off the algae grow lamp I have on my fuge?

I added Marine Snow last night, and will add copepods this afternoon.  How frequently for the Marine Snow?  Daily for now?

I will reduce photo period to 7 hours.

Sucked up loose dinos, filtered and returned water to tank.

Should I turn off protein skimmer, or reduce hours?  

I replaced filter floss last night, and will do every other day (this is not too different from normal for me)

I replaced chemi-pure carbon bag last night, and will do again in 1 week.

I rinsed the open-cell foam block which separates chambers 2 & 3 in new RODI.

 

Some follow up questions: do copepods die off?  How frequently should I feed them marine snow to keep them happy under normal conditions?  Other preferred foods for them?

 

Thanks!  

 

I wouldn't use chemipure, just plain activated carbon like Seachem matrix.

The additional media in chemipure will reduce nutrients.

 

 

Definitely monitor nitrates and phos. I was testing mine every 2-3 days.

 

Yes, copepod population can go down as fish and other livestock eat them. They also need a safe place to reproduce.

 

To keep them reproducing they need to be fed phytoplankton.

[A.m.P]

If you're using snow you need to keep the skimmer running for at least a few hours to take whatever it's clumping out of your system, sorry to hear you have dino's hope you get them beat quickly.
You'll likely always have some pods, but Clown is absolutely-correct in it being very unlikely your tank has a large-enough population to fight-off a dino-outbreak (otherwise they'd have already eaten them all)

An easy test is to just suck some of the gunk out, mix it up real-well in a dixie-cup and set it by a window, if it re-coagulates and clumps-up then it's dino's. (Mcarrol mentioned this already, but I just wanted to specify you don't need a specific or fancy container for it)

[DSFIRSTSLTWATER]

17 hours ago, Clown79 said:

Osteo has palytoxin in it.

 

I had upper respiratory issues during the month + I had dino's. No other cause Was prescribed meds but it went away as soon as the dino's died off.

Wow, I never thought about something like that before.. That's good to know Clown

[Clown79]

6 hours ago, DSFIRSTSLTWATER said:

Wow, I never thought about something like that before.. That's good to know Clown

It was awful. 

 

I don't know how ppl handle living near areas with red tide, I've heard a lot of them suffer sinus and asthma issues.

[DSFIRSTSLTWATER]

27 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

It was awful. 

 

I don't know how ppl handle living near areas with red tide, I've heard a lot of them suffer sinus and asthma issues.

Glad you're feeling better though. 

[mcarroll]

9 hours ago, ElJefe99 said:

I have reduced my chaeto down to about a golf ball sized amount - should I fully remove? 

Should I turn off the algae grow lamp I have on my fuge?

Yes, IMO, shut the whole thing down.  There's no good reason for you to be growing chaeto in this tank with its current problems.  Plus, you can always fire it back up later if it seems like a good idea in the future.

 

 

9 hours ago, ElJefe99 said:

I replaced chemi-pure carbon bag last night, and will do again in 1 week.

Like was mentioned, take this out and (if you case about the resin) put it back in the chemi-pure bottle until post-dino's.  It may mold in the container before you get around to it, so maybe fill it with saltwater so it stays submerged......or choose NOT to worry about the resin and just let the whole bag dry out before storing....won't hurt the carbon for it to dry out.

 

Replace it with plain activated carbon.

 

 

9 hours ago, ElJefe99 said:

do copepods die off?  How frequently should I feed them marine snow to keep them happy under normal conditions?  Other preferred foods for them?

They are part of your cleanup crew and their population with swell and recede along with available food.  Feeding them directly would not be recommended.

 

I'm not sure what the intention is behind the marine snow, but if you're trying to combat dinoflagellates I would wait til they're gone to begin feeding the tank bottled marine snow.

 

FYI, Dino's require dissolved nutrients, so if you're going to dose anything, it should be a phosphates supplement and possibly also a nitrate supplement.  (I think we posted target levels....if not ask!)

 

Also, try to get the dino test done.  If you can get a sample under a microscope (even a toy one) you could be all that much more sure....and maybe ID the specific type of dino you have.

[mcarroll]

8 hours ago, Amphrites said:

You'll likely always have some pods, but Clown is absolutely-correct in it being very unlikely your tank has a large-enough population to fight-off a dino-outbreak (otherwise they'd have already eaten them all)

A dino bloom will eat copepods, not the other way around.   That's the whole idea.....toxins wipe everything out, bacteria liberates the nutrients, then dino's eat the bacteria and anything else that'll fit in their mouths.  This behavior doesn't change until there are adequate dissolved nutrients left in the water to keep future dino generations happy as autotrophs.....but photosynthesis has an absolute requirement for phosphates, and dino's are terrible at phosphate uptake AND very sensitive to the rigors of photosynthesis.  Tough situation if you're a dino, so be generous with the phosphates!!  😉 

 

Susceptibility to dinotoxin scales UP as critter-size scales DOWN.   Copepods are usually the first to succumb, followed by larger cleanup crew like snails.  You can tell if any of them are being affected because they will act drunk or stunned (or missing!) instead of being active like normal.

 

Activated carbon will bind the toxins well, so would minimize or maybe even eliminate this effect, but does not change the requirements for phosphates, et al.

[A.m.P]

2 hours ago, mcarroll said:

A dino bloom will eat copepods, not the other way around.   That's the whole idea.....toxins wipe everything out, bacteria liberates the nutrients, then dino's eat the bacteria and anything else that'll fit in their mouths.  This behavior doesn't change until there are adequate dissolved nutrients left in the water to keep future dino generations happy as autotrophs.....but photosynthesis has an absolute requirement for phosphates, and dino's are terrible at phosphate uptake AND very sensitive to the rigors of photosynthesis.  Tough situation if you're a dino, so be generous with the phosphates!!  😉 

 

Susceptibility to dinotoxin scales UP as critter-size scales DOWN.   Copepods are usually the first to succumb, followed by larger cleanup crew like snails.  You can tell if any of them are being affected because they will act drunk or stunned (or missing!) instead of being active like normal.

 

Activated carbon will bind the toxins well, so would minimize or maybe even eliminate this effect, but does not change the requirements for phosphates, et al.

I was fairly-certain some of the only predators, apart from cannabalistic-dino's or random parasites, are pods -diatoms - a handful of fungi, etc. I was mostly just pointing out that the population of pods we can reasonably sustain in our tanks isn't large enough to deal with dino-blooms and usually die from lack of non-toxic food sources =/

[mcarroll]

Under non-bloom conditions that is very likely true.

 

In general, I think a healthy, diverse population of microbial heterotrophs is required for a healthy reef, and is probably one of the more important contributions from live rock to a reef tank.  For example, Tintinnids are one of the only that I've run across that get a specific mention for eating dino's....maybe even requiring them.  Check this PDF out: 

[Clown79]

5 hours ago, DSFIRSTSLTWATER said:

Glad you're feeling better though. 

Thank you!

[Clown79]

2 hours ago, Amphrites said:

I was fairly-certain some of the only predators, apart from cannabalistic-dino's or random parasites, are pods -diatoms - a handful of fungi, etc. I was mostly just pointing out that the population of pods we can reasonably sustain in our tanks isn't large enough to deal with dino-blooms and usually die from lack of non-toxic food sources =/

Yup.

 

All the scientific research I did proved that pods were dino's single competitor. That's why most of the hobbyists who had success getting rid of dinos, seeded a crap ton of them.

 

Worked for me.

Seeded tank, dino's started receding. Prior to that even elevated nutrients wasn't doing the job. 

[A.m.P]

10 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Under non-bloom conditions that is very likely true.

 

In general, I think a healthy, diverse population of microbial heterotrophs is required for a healthy reef, and is probably one of the more important contributions from live rock to a reef tank.  For example, Tintinnids are one of the only that I've run across that get a specific mention for eating dino's....maybe even requiring them.  Check this PDF out: 

Arctica-tonsa pods too, I'm sure there are a fair few varieties specifically-known for it, but it's hardly the first search correlation to crop-up on google's algorithms lol...

[ElJefe99]

Just wanted to follow up:

I am (almost) completely rid of the dinos.  Here's what it took for me:

stopped protein skimmer

removed chaeto

removed bioballs

reduced photo period on white lights, but not too dramatically

added UV sterilizer - I know this is a contentious step, but it worked for me; now down to a few hours overnight

changed polyfilter daily at first, then slowly stretched out changes

changed carbon weekly

physical removal until too small to easily remove, then used baster to stir the sand and keep it from maintaining a foothold

no water changes during the outbreak

added pods twice

 

Things are looking pretty good now; zoa is looking great, and hammer is coming out w blue lights and getting used to whites again.  Fish and cuc are happy.

 

[Tamberav]

4 minutes ago, ElJefe99 said:

Just wanted to follow up:

I am (almost) completely rid of the dinos.  Here's what it took for me:

stopped protein skimmer

removed chaeto

removed bioballs

reduced photo period on white lights, but not too dramatically

added UV sterilizer - I know this is a contentious step, but it worked for me; now down to a few hours overnight

changed polyfilter daily at first, then slowly stretched out changes

changed carbon weekly

physical removal until too small to easily remove, then used baster to stir the sand and keep it from maintaining a foothold

no water changes during the outbreak

added pods twice

 

Things are looking pretty good now; zoa is looking great, and hammer is coming out w blue lights and getting used to whites again.  Fish and cuc are happy.

 

 

Glad your tank is on the mend. UV worked very well on my dinos too, it does not work on all kinds of dino but the ones it does... is a very dramatic effect.