tibbsy07 IM10

[metrokat]

So old water can help start a cycle? I've been contemplating how I am going to start the cycle in my tank. I have bagged "live" sand but I don't know how authentic that actually is. My friends Mom has a very well established 57 reef that she said I could take some water from with her water change. How much should I use? 1-5 gallons?

get a scoop of her old sand, that has more bacteria, the water does not.

[tibbsy07]

So old water can help start a cycle? I've been contemplating how I am going to start the cycle in my tank. I have bagged "live" sand but I don't know how authentic that actually is. My friends Mom has a very well established 57 reef that she said I could take some water from with her water change. How much should I use? 1-5 gallons?

What Mariaface said. The bacteria that are so critical for our tanks reside largely in the sand/rock/rear area where no light is. They are not very keen on light, especially the kind that we use in our tanks. They are typically killed. I'm seeding my tank with live rock, old filter floss from my HOB and microbacter7 (a bacterial supplement I use weekly containing the bacteria the tank needs). These things will provide the majority of the bacteria. The old water will just have nutrients and some planktonic bacteria (but not many, definitely not enough to cycle a tank) so that the new bacteria from everything else I put in will have enough to eat. I also recommend cycling without a light. Again, the bacteria are killed by the UV light. For the cycle, you want as many beneficial bacteria on as many surfaces as you can possibly get. Light allows them to grow literally on every surface that the water touches.

 

The water isn't going to give you a significant amount of bacteria; Tibbsy's using it for bacteria food. Nutrients and fish poop and all that good stuff. Maybe you should put some filter floss in your mom's friend's aquarium and then take it back when you're setting up your tank? The bagged sand may help a bit, but if it's been sitting for a shelf for a large amount of time it's likely got more dead bacteria than live bacteria (still, though, food).

This. The bagged sand is junk, to be honest. Those microbes don't make spores and there certainly isn't enough to sustain them. They're at best in late stationary phase, but most are in death phase. They're going to be replaced anyways. Buy whatever is cheapest and go with that.

 

get a scoop of her old sand, that has more bacteria, the water does not.

This, too.

[Begow]

get a scoop of her old sand, that has more bacteria, the water does not.

 

 

What Mariaface said. The bacteria that are so critical for our tanks reside largely in the sand/rock/rear area where no light is. They are not very keen on light, especially the kind that we use in our tanks. They are typically killed. I'm seeding my tank with live rock, old filter floss from my HOB and microbacter7 (a bacterial supplement I use weekly containing the bacteria the tank needs). These things will provide the majority of the bacteria. The old water will just have nutrients and some planktonic bacteria (but not many, definitely not enough to cycle a tank) so that the new bacteria from everything else I put in will have enough to eat. I also recommend cycling without a light. Again, the bacteria are killed by the UV light. For the cycle, you want as many beneficial bacteria on as many surfaces as you can possibly get. Light allows them to grow literally on every surface that the water touches.

 

This. The bagged sand is junk, to be honest. Those microbes don't make spores and there certainly isn't enough to sustain them. They're at best in late stationary phase, but most are in death phase. They're going to be replaced anyways. Buy whatever is cheapest and go with that.

 

This, too.

 

 

Last time I checked she has some small red slime algae issues. Still safe to take her sand? Or even use filter floss?

[tibbsy07]

Last time I checked she has some small red slime algae issues. Still safe to take her sand? Or even use filter floss?

Nope. If she has cyano, you don't want any of that. Just be patient with your cycle. Let it happen. That or buy something like Dr. Tim's one and only.

[Begow]

Nope. If she has cyano, you don't want any of that. Just be patient with your cycle. Let it happen. That or buy something like Dr. Tim's one and only.

 

Alright cool, I'll just do my own thing then. Not trying to get involved with issues early on. I'll throw a 1/4 of a cocktail shrimp in there like I've always done

[rocksmom]

Holy cow tibbsy, every time I get on the computer I have like 20 notifications from your thread. You're going to be the next lawnman or kat

 

So you've had good experiences with the MicroBacter7? I tried the Dr. Tim's stuff on the 5g and was disappointed. It seemed to work at first, but then the tank still took five weeks to cycle.

 

When's the eta on your rock?

[tibbsy07]

Holy cow tibbsy, every time I get on the computer I have like 20 notifications from your thread. You're going to be the next lawnman or kat

 

So you've had good experiences with the MicroBacter7? I tried the Dr. Tim's stuff on the 5g and was disappointed. It seemed to work at first, but then the tank still took five weeks to cycle.

 

When's the eta on your rock?

Haha, thanks, but I'm nowhere near that caliber. I'm years away from totm or anything close to that.

 

The Microbacter7 I like - but I never cycled with it. I'm a non-believer in the instant cycle. Dr. Tim's works, but I know how long it takes microbes to grow as i grow them every day, and even the ones who normally grow at X rate sometimes grow at Y rate. There is no real way to have a tank cycled and safe for anything in 24 hours. I don't buy that at all. I expect that this tank, with all the seeding and the amount of space and sand and rock will take a couple of weeks to be totally ready to go.

 

ETA on the rock is unknown. I'm buying it from jedimasterben, but he's crazy busy right now and has his own stuff to tend to. When he ships it I should get it within a couple of days. Maybe a week from now?

[jbb]

This. The bagged sand is junk, to be honest. Those microbes don't make spores and there certainly isn't enough to sustain them. They're at best in late stationary phase, but most are in death phase. They're going to be replaced anyways. Buy whatever is cheapest and go with that.

 

Tibbs is spot on with this.

 

I have worked wholesale, and the warehouse areas that all products are kept in is NOT climate controlled (except frozen / cold goods of course). The temps are basically a reflection of what is going on outside at that particular location. In the winter it is FREEZING, and in the summer it it SCORCHING. Bottles of bacteria, live sand etc. are all kept in these locations and then shipped out to stores once they are ordered. So its sort of a crap shoot as to what you are really getting when it comes to products containing "live" bacteria at the LFS. Any time I need that type of product, I order direct (Dr. Tim is who I use) that way there might be a better chance of actually getting a good product. Its still a gamble, but I feel that I have better odds that way ... I could be totally wrong, but my brain is comfortable with it.

[tibbsy07]

Tibbs is spot on with this.

 

I have worked wholesale, and the warehouse areas that all products are kept in is NOT climate controlled (except frozen / cold goods of course). The temps are basically a reflection of what is going on outside at that particular location. In the winter it is FREEZING, and in the summer it it SCORCHING. Bottles of bacteria, live sand etc. are all kept in these locations and then shipped out to stores once they are ordered. So its sort of a crap shoot as to what you are really getting when it comes to products containing "live" bacteria at the LFS. Any time I need that type of product, I order direct (Dr. Tim is who I use) that way there might be a better chance of actually getting a good product. Its still a gamble, but I feel that I have better odds that way ... I could be totally wrong, but my brain is comfortable with it.

I'm intrigued how Brightwell and Dr Tim's keep their cultures going? Both say they are shelf stable. I'm going to bring in some and put it on a microscope and see what's in there...

 

 

Edit: Ok, so here's the deal. I'm actually going to use the products, but I think it beneficial for everyone to know what's IN the bottle.

 

First let's start with some basic microbiology. Bacteria require water, nutrients, etc. to survive. The living bacterial cells are called vegetative cells. Some bacteria can produce spores. A spore is basically a super protective seed that contains the DNA and some proteins needed to keep the bacterial cell alive and allow it to germinate, or grow, when conditions are right. They are protective against desiccation (drying out, heat, antibiotics, cold, etc. They are basically a forcefield for the bacteria that make them. When the spore ends up in the right conditions, environmental signals drop in and the spore recognizes these signals, and begins to germinate, becoming a vegetative cell.

 

The major bacteria that we want in our reef tanks are Nitrosomonas spp., Nitrococcus spp., and Nitrobacter spp. None of these bacterial species make spores. So... If that's what the probiotics do for our tanks, how do they live for so long on the shelf and at varying environmental conditions?

 

Answer - they don't! Older products like Cycle actually use spore-forming denitrifying soil bacteria. These bacteria can't live in the water so they basically become food for the new bacteria we want in our tanks, thereby shortening the cycle because the dead/lysed bacteria release nutrients, elements, etc. into the water column that are already in stages that the current bacteria can use immediately. They don't have to break it all down first.

 

As for Microbacter7 and Dr. Tim's... They say that the organisms are shelf-stable in a bottle for a year. I would suggest that this may be true, but their reasoning of "If they can't stand poor conditions, then how do they live in the ocean?" is problematic. The ocean doesn't subject them to the same stressors that shipping does. Dr. Tim says that he uses real science and that they pay all kinds of attention to weather patterns, etc. But that's BS. He can't do that with every shipment and even if he could watch the weather, it's unpredictable and finnicky. Basically, his products and the Brightwell products have what you need in your tank. But they put expiration dates of ~ a year on the bottle, and I would go so far as to say that 6 months tops is what you should expect. Maybe a year if you keep them in the fridge.

[ReeferBoo]

nice tank! following along

[tibbsy07]

nice tank! following along

I'm honored! thanks for stopping by

[tibbsy07]

I forgot to mention... Remember those MACNA pictures of the HUGE tank with the mangrove tree thing? It had sharks and rays in it? Well the LFS I go to now, an hour away, bought that tank! They now have kessils over it and have made it a frag tank.

http://ih.constantcontact.com/fs131/1113372285473/img/334.jpg?a=1118639365308

[NirvanaandTool]

Awesome!

 

Thanks! Slowly but surely...

 

My wife and I want the shelf to have doors. She likes the baskets in this one. I think I am building one this week some time. It'll be a temporary work as I will likely just have the structure for a time until I can get the siding figured out.

 

Thanks And for the bourbon - hell yeah. I love bourbon, whiskey, and scotch. Those are my alcohol loves. Used to be craft beer, and I still enjoy that, but whiskey is my soul. What can I say? Scottish heritage (almost 100%) and raised in the Southeast

 

Hell ya man. I love bourbon and scotch. Got a nice little collection building of single malts but need to expand in the bourbon dept. I love craft beer too, normally if I'm working on the tank I've got a nice glass of craft beer next to me and then enjoy a glass of single malt when I'm all finished as a reward

 

Bacteria science lesson going on here!

I use Seachem Stability to seed my quarantine tanks along with seeded filter floss from my DT. It seems to work well enough for me but I always double the recommended dose.

[tibbsy07]

Hell ya man. I love bourbon and scotch. Got a nice little collection building of single malts but need to expand in the bourbon dept. I love craft beer too, normally if I'm working on the tank I've got a nice glass of craft beer next to me and then enjoy a glass of single malt when I'm all finished as a reward

 

Bacteria science lesson going on here!

I use Seachem Stability to seed my quarantine tanks along with seeded filter floss from my DT. It seems to work well enough for me but I always double the recommended dose.

I've cut WAAAAAAY back on the craft beer. Delicious, but too heavy for me nowadays.

 

As for the bacteria lesson, what can I say? I am a microbiologist

 

 

Ok, so here are some pictures because Kat requested them.

Here is the eggcrate shelf I made using a 3x4 piece and the K&J magnet. Originally it was 4x4 but there is a lip in the back of the tank (see below), so I had to cut it down. This was JBB's idea first, so I cant take credit.

Here is a picture of the overflow region and you can see the lip that they put in.

 

Here is the whole rear area. IM says that users should only fill the water to ~1" below that horizontal line you see...

 

Here is the general design of the return line I was thinking of... More like a frag tank kind of flow or a DIY, simple riptide (minus the gyre making part). It could be vertical like this, or horizontal across the top. For those with 2 pumps, connecting them both to a horizontal one or having each separate into vertical lines may be best. It'd be cheap to do and I think using a smaller diameter tubing with a stronger pump would yield great, even flow. Thoughts?

Here is what the current return looks like for comparison. I'd remove that and make the return "tube" flush with the back of the tank so it doesn't take up unnecessary room

[rocksmom]

Here is what the current return looks like for comparison. I'd remove that and make the return "tube" flush with the back of the tank so it doesn't take up unnecessary room

 

So it would be like a spraybar? I don't see any reason it wouldn't work. I used a 5 foot pvc one in my 6' planted tank with good results. Just make sure to go small with the holes and add fewer than you think you'll need. You can always add more and too many or too large of a diameter will greatly diminish your flow, way more than you would think.

[tibbsy07]

So it would be like a spraybar? I don't see any reason it wouldn't work. I used a 5 foot pvc one in my 6' planted tank with good results. Just make sure to go small with the holes and add fewer than you think you'll need. You can always add more and too many or too large of a diameter will greatly diminish your flow, way more than you would think.

Yeah, spraybar. I couldn't think of the word! Thanks

 

For the holes, I was going to use a small nail to puncture the tubing and only have like 6 holes, maybe 8 if needed.

[metrokat]

Nice eggcrate shelf Doc.

How'd ypu deburr the little pokey bits?

[Fishstiks]

I like your idea for the flow, very similar to a canister filter output. The downside to that is that the water flows in a single direction only with all the holes in a vertical line. My freshwater canister that is set up just like this pushed the water against the front glass and then it just flows along the front glass to the far end and back towards the suction tube. Creates a circular tunnel flow of water, no random flow. I would consider making the holes in different locations though, stagger them down, maybe a zig zag pattern? That might give a more random flow, which they say corals like better. Just my 2 cents :-)

[rocksmom]

Yeah, spraybar. I couldn't think of the word! Thanks

 

For the holes, I was going to use a small nail to puncture the tubing and only have like 6 holes, maybe 8 if needed.

You need a dremel, best little DIYer tool ever.

[tibbsy07]

You need a dremel, best little DIYer tool ever.

Yeah, I've heard this lol. I probably should get one. I have power drills though.

[kimberbee]

What're the display dimensions?

 

I can't seem to find online..

[tibbsy07]

Display dimensions are 12"l x 12"w x 13"h.

 

IM has the dimensions in the manual and specifications pdfs on the IM 10 page at the bottom.

[kimberbee]

Doh... I JUST pulled up the PDF looking for that... Thanks!!

[tibbsy07]

Nice eggcrate shelf Doc.

How'd ypu deburr the little pokey bits?

I just used the flat side of the pliers/clippers I was using to get as close as possible.

 

 

I like your idea for the flow, very similar to a canister filter output. The downside to that is that the water flows in a single direction only with all the holes in a vertical line. My freshwater canister that is set up just like this pushed the water against the front glass and then it just flows along the front glass to the far end and back towards the suction tube. Creates a circular tunnel flow of water, no random flow. I would consider making the holes in different locations though, stagger them down, maybe a zig zag pattern? That might give a more random flow, which they say corals like better. Just my 2 cents :-)

The random flow would definitely be difficult to get, but as it stands now I have only directed flow because the return nozzle is straight. And random flow may or may not be super important if more water in the water column is being pushed evenly.

 

Also got the stand figured out

[tibbsy07]

Did another bit of shopping today, too. No purchases but pretty close.

 

 

Her name is Gina and she is a 7mo lab/whippet pup. She is house-trained, spayed, micro-chipped.

 

 

We are going out of town for the weekend in 2 weeks so we don't want to adopt a dog and leave it alone so early on.