Mark's 150 (NanoBox Retro)

[Asureef]

15 minutes ago, markalot said:

The Lokani started to RTN again, so this frag may be all I have left.  

 

 

The frag on the right just poofed, but a smaller one I made 2 days ago (not pictured) is still alive ,,, for now.   You can see this frag has encrusted so I have high hopes.

 

That's a bummer.. sorry for the lost.  These smooth skins can be picky.  Me and friend went in on a very large colony of ORA hawkins around a foot big, it was basically a steal (Under $100).  After getting it, we decided to chop it into 10 pieces.  Sadly, all RTN the following day.  I still have 2 frags left.  

[markalot]

I haven't lost anything else and the tank is ever so slowly settling back down.   

 

When I trimmed and Lokani I placed it on the dead SSC and it appeared to have 'caught' RTN again and lost a few more branches, then stopped, and is now slowly growing again. 

 

I've got it way in back under lower light now to heal up.  Bad picture, but the only one I have.

 

I tore up the front of the tank, tossing some older half dead corals and rocks covered in Xenia.  This really opens up some space and allow slight to get down in the front of the tank where some corals were starting to wither away due to lack of light.  Like my Acan

 

 

And the blueberry capitata, which has never gotten the respect it's deserved.  It's broken, laying around the bottom of the tank, and every piece has grown and maintained color.

 

 

This undata will also color up under more light, not to mention the poor Bird of Paradise next to it.

 

The spongodes as well, which is getting a very nice mixed growth form.

 

FTS

 

The white blob in the center is my old Purple Stylo skeleton that the wife saved and cleaned (even though she normally avoids the tank).  It makes a nice unconventional frag rack.  It's holding an old yellow/green poci and this reddish thing I rescued from the Xenia.

 

 

It will be competing with the Red Robin for the best, and only, red acro in the tank ATM.  Red Robin should be easy to beat.

 

 

A few more random shots.

 

 

 

[teenyreef]

Fingers crossed for the lokani frag 

 

I think clearing things out to improve light down low is good - do you think it will help with flow too? 

 

Those FTS shots are just unbelievable. So beautiful! 

[markalot]

17 minutes ago, teenyreef said:

Fingers crossed for the lokani frag 

 

I think clearing things out to improve light down low is good - do you think it will help with flow too? 

 

Those FTS shots are just unbelievable. So beautiful! 

 

Thanks Teeny,

 

I forgot to mention flow fixes.   One of my MP40 baskets froze up months ago so I immediately ordered another and it sat un-open for 6 months.  In the meantime I used the beast of a Tunze to provide flow.  On paper it produces more flow but in the tank not so much.  The old (loud) MP40 motor with the new basket is a best of a pump and sand is moving.  I put the beast in the back right and have it alternating on and off.  MP40's are in the second nutrient transport mode with the flow alternating from wave maker to full left, full right, full both, idle.  Put some flake food in and it appears I have good flow just about everywhere now.  

 

Another thing I didn't mention, new bulbs, same combo (2 coral+, 2 blue+).  Raised the fixture a few inches.  PAR is similar but it looks so much whiter now that I suspect the old bulbs (14 months old) lost some of their green output.

 

One last thing.  A third acro took a hit during the tank downturn.

 

 

This was a dark red, then turned green and the skin appeared to melt in places.  It's finally showing polyp extension again.  I made two frags, one died, the other looks like crap.  

 

I swear I will never use carbon dosing again, what a silly mistake.

 

KH 7.0 (how rare for me)

NO3 5 (I stopped dosing, my mixture is pretty potent).

[markalot]

So that 7 KH kept gnawing at me, finally I achieved 7KH.  

 

hmmm

 

test ....   9.3 KH Salifert, 9.1 KH Hanna.

 

DAMMIT.  Doser is OFF, Kalk is diluted, the tank starves until I get a handle on the KH usage.   After 3 hours from the original test KH had dropped to 8.8 so it's still being used but crap, I will pay for this in a week or so.

 

Very roughly .3 KH usage per 3 hours makes it nice and simple, .1 per hour.  Tomorrow around 6PM I should be at 6.4 if usage is steady, which it probably isn't.  I think I'll test once more this evening and see if KH is still dropping.   I wish I knew how fast it rose to 9.

[markalot]

9.3 at 4pm

8.8 at 6:30pm

8.6 at 8:30pm

 

It's being used, good, so I will test tomorrow morning and decide if and for how long to turn the doser back on.   I suspect I'll be down near 7 by morning but I honestly don't know how fast corals use Alk overnight.

[teenyreef]

2 hours ago, markalot said:

9.3 at 4pm

8.8 at 6:30pm

8.6 at 8:30pm

 

It's being used, good, so I will test tomorrow morning and decide if and for how long to turn the doser back on.   I suspect I'll be down near 7 by morning but I honestly don't know how fast corals use Alk overnight.

Mark, I'm sure you know, but others may not, that alk levels change during a 24 hour period due to the light cycle. So it peaks after the lights have been on all day, and is lowest right before it starts to get light again. I always test at the same time of day so I'm being consistent from day to day.

 

Of course with the doser off and corals sucking up elements, it will continue to go down with the lights on, just more slowly than when the lights are off.

 

In my little tanks, I've never been able to get any particular dosing level to hold alk even close to steady for more than a week or so. I have to test every three or four days and continuously adjust. I suspect the same my be true for you, to a lesser extent, since although you have a big tank, you have even bigger corals 

[markalot]

5 hours ago, teenyreef said:

Mark, I'm sure you know, but others may not, that alk levels change during a 24 hour period due to the light cycle. So it peaks after the lights have been on all day, and is lowest right before it starts to get light again. I always test at the same time of day so I'm being consistent from day to day.

 

Of course with the doser off and corals sucking up elements, it will continue to go down with the lights on, just more slowly than when the lights are off.

 

In my little tanks, I've never been able to get any particular dosing level to hold alk even close to steady for more than a week or so. I have to test every three or four days and continuously adjust. I suspect the same my be true for you, to a lesser extent, since although you have a big tank, you have even bigger corals 

 

All good reminders teeny.  🙂  I'll have to think about Alk swings and 24 hour dosing once I get stable again.  In a tank that uses Alk at the level mine does how big is the overnight swing?

 

Alk aprox 8.5 this morning. 

[teenyreef]

3 hours ago, markalot said:

 

All good reminders teeny.  🙂  I'll have to think about Alk swings and 24 hour dosing once I get stable again.  In a tank that uses Alk at the level mine does how big is the overnight swing?

 

Alk aprox 8.5 this morning. 

I've never tried to measure the swing carefully, but I _think_ it can swing as much as .5 or 1 dKh. It's probably documented by someone somewhere, though...

[markalot]

2 hours ago, teenyreef said:

I've never tried to measure the swing carefully, but I _think_ it can swing as much as .5 or 1 dKh. It's probably documented by someone somewhere, though...

People that use calcium reactors don't turn them off at night, as far as I know anyway, so this can;t be a new problem.  I wonder if harder to keep acros will do better in a day/night regime where Alk is held steadier?  I wonder if it even matters?  I'm using 120ml each part daily.  The calculator says 107ml will raise KH by 1 in 150 gallons.  Hmmm.   

[markalot]

Apparently the KH dosing schedule is becoming a hot topic mainly due to the fact people can now monitor KH 24/7 with new, expensive, equipment.  Unfortunately many don;t have the kind of KH usage I have ... big acros, medium sized tank.  Delay in KH usage is around an hour from lights on, though what lights on means is ill defined.  KH usage drops but does not go to zero overnight.  

[MortalWombat]

Amazing tank! What are those two colonies at the top right of the tank, some kind of millepora? They are featured in the second to the last photo from Monday. Forgive my ignorance, I've never kept acros.

[markalot]

7 minutes ago, MortalWombat said:

Amazing tank! What are those two colonies at the top right of the tank, some kind of millepora? They are featured in the second to the last photo from Monday. Forgive my ignorance, I've never kept acros.

Thanks.  Top right, in back?  The orange one?

 

Orange is a small Montipora digitata.  

 

Woops, 

 

This pic?  

 

 

Left is a Pink Milli, right is a Palmers blue Milli.  To my eyes, under blue light, pink milli glows pink, Palmers looks about right.  The Palmer's is a brown turd under daylight.  :) 

 

[MortalWombat]

53 minutes ago, markalot said:

Thanks.  Top right, in back?  The orange one?

 

Orange is a small Montipora digitata.  

 

Woops, 

 

This pic?  

 

 

Left is a Pink Milli, right is a Palmers blue Milli.  To my eyes, under blue light, pink milli glows pink, Palmers looks about right.  The Palmer's is a brown turd under daylight.  :) 

 

Thanks for clarifying, I was talking about the millis. I'm color-deficient so that makes things interesting... Anyways, great tank and awesome photography!

[markalot]

4pm KH 8.1

 

Slower than I was expecting but I do have Kalk at full dose again.  This happened during my first crash 2 years ago and instead of turning off the doser I kept backing it off until I finally hit 11KH and lost just about everything.  At least I didn't make that mistake again.   Will test again when the T5's go off at 6PM.

[teenyreef]

4 hours ago, markalot said:

People that use calcium reactors don't turn them off at night, as far as I know anyway, so this can;t be a new problem.  I wonder if harder to keep acros will do better in a day/night regime where Alk is held steadier?  I wonder if it even matters?  I'm using 120ml each part daily.  The calculator says 107ml will raise KH by 1 in 150 gallons.  Hmmm.   

From the research I did, I seem to recall the best ideas were to dose liquid alk supplements at night, because it raises Ph, but run the calcium reactor during the day because it drops Ph. The idea being to stabilize Ph. But I never found anything definitive about when to dose based on actual alkalinity levels.

 

Your dosing sounds about right. I know for sure in my little tanks that I lose at least 1 dKh per day if the doser is turned off.

[Asureef]

6 hours ago, markalot said:

People that use calcium reactors don't turn them off at night, as far as I know anyway, so this can;t be a new problem.  I wonder if harder to keep acros will do better in a day/night regime where Alk is held steadier?  I wonder if it even matters?  I'm using 120ml each part daily.  The calculator says 107ml will raise KH by 1 in 150 gallons.  Hmmm.   

 

Mark I don’t recall what you use to maintain the big 3.  But me, personally I don’t try to figure out my tanks alk consumption rate.  Why? IME, it will change.  I just dose 24/7 every hr to hit my target range.  Sometimes it’s less, sometimes it’s more.  Your alk. can  fluctuate greatly depending on how the corals are feeling, especially in times of stress.  Which is why I make sure to test alk. at min. once a week, when there is change, it’s tested daily until dailed in.  But I’m sure you know all of this.

 

 

 

 

 

[markalot]

46 minutes ago, Asureef said:

 

Mark I don’t recall what you use to maintain the big 3.  But me, personally I don’t try to figure out my tanks alk consumption rate.  Why? IME, it will change.  I just dose 24/7 every hr to hit my target range.  Sometimes it’s less, sometimes it’s more.  Your alk. can  fluctuate greatly depending on how the corals are feeling, especially in times of stress.  Which is why I make sure to test alk. at min. once a week, when there is change, it’s tested daily until dailed in.  But I’m sure you know all of this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Let me try to explain.  :D

 

We want stability, right?  My point is, and what others better than me are discovering, is that dosing 24/7 in a tank with a heavy coral load will be UNSTABLE due to the difference in day vs night demand.  This may be why older tanks tend to start having issues.   My Daily Alk usage might be 2 KH, for the sake of argument, but if I dose that over 24 hours then my morning Alk will be 8, end of light cycle will be 7, and then it will climb to 8 by the next morning if we assume corals do not use any Alk at night.  This assumes I'm dosing enough for 1KH during the 12 hours day and another 1 KH overnight.   

 

This is no big deal if Alk usage is low, but what if My Alk usage is something crazy, like 6 KH daily?  

 

Suddenly I'm doing daily swings from 9KH in the morning to 6KH in the evening.  That's pretty flipping huge!   As you can see, continuing 24 hour dosing and continuing to raise the amount as the tank grows actually decreases stability due to the difference in day/night usage.   

 

So to review,

 

My current measurements with only Kalk, no doser, are:

 

9.3 at 4pm
8.8 at 6:30pm
8.6 at 8:30pm
8.5 at 6AM
8.1 at 4PM 

7.9 at 6:30 PM

 

Still have an 8:30pm measurement to make.  Note that I only lost .1KH overnight.  To really do this test correctly I should remove all Kalk from my times topoff, but I'm not so there is some background dosing still going on 24/7 (every 15 minutes).  I estimate the Kalk provides a daily dose of + 0.6 Alk if I use .8 gallons daily, which is about right.   So if I drop 1 KH daily I am really using 1.6 KH of Alk daily.  

 

If I stop dosing 2 part at night (but continue Kalk)  then my overnight Alk swing should only be +0.3 KH.  

 

 

 

 

[Asureef]

42 minutes ago, markalot said:

 

Let me try to explain.  😄

 

We want stability, right?  My point is, and what others better than me are discovering, is that dosing 24/7 in a tank with a heavy coral load will be UNSTABLE due to the difference in day vs night demand.  This may be why older tanks tend to start having issues.   My Daily Alk usage might be 2 KH, for the sake of argument, but if I dose that over 24 hours then my morning Alk will be 8, end of light cycle will be 7, and then it will climb to 8 by the next morning if we assume corals do not use any Alk at night.  This assumes I'm dosing enough for 1KH during the 12 hours day and another 1 KH overnight.   

 

This is no big deal if Alk usage is low, but what if My Alk usage is something crazy, like 6 KH daily?  

 

Suddenly I'm doing daily swings from 9KH in the morning to 6KH in the evening.  That's pretty flipping huge!   As you can see, continuing 24 hour dosing and continuing to raise the amount as the tank grows actually decreases stability due to the difference in day/night usage.   

 

So to review,

 

My current measurements with only Kalk, no doser, are:

 

9.3 at 4pm
8.8 at 6:30pm
8.6 at 8:30pm
8.5 at 6AM
8.1 at 4PM 

7.9 at 6:30 PM

 

Still have an 8:30pm measurement to make.  Note that I only lost .1KH overnight.  To really do this test correctly I should remove all Kalk from my times topoff, but I'm not so there is some background dosing still going on 24/7 (every 15 minutes).  I estimate the Kalk provides a daily dose of + 0.6 Alk if I use .8 gallons daily, which is about right.   So if I drop 1 KH daily I am really using 1.6 KH of Alk daily.  

 

If I stop dosing 2 part at night (but continue Kalk)  then my overnight Alk swing should only be +0.3 KH.  

 

 

 

 

 

I see, but going by your theory shouldn’t alk be at its lowest when demand Should be higher during lighting hrs?   

 

 

[teenyreef]

49 minutes ago, markalot said:

 

Let me try to explain.  😄

 

We want stability, right?  My point is, and what others better than me are discovering, is that dosing 24/7 in a tank with a heavy coral load will be UNSTABLE due to the difference in day vs night demand.  This may be why older tanks tend to start having issues.   My Daily Alk usage might be 2 KH, for the sake of argument, but if I dose that over 24 hours then my morning Alk will be 8, end of light cycle will be 7, and then it will climb to 8 by the next morning if we assume corals do not use any Alk at night.  This assumes I'm dosing enough for 1KH during the 12 hours day and another 1 KH overnight.   

 

This is no big deal if Alk usage is low, but what if My Alk usage is something crazy, like 6 KH daily?  

 

Suddenly I'm doing daily swings from 9KH in the morning to 6KH in the evening.  That's pretty flipping huge!   As you can see, continuing 24 hour dosing and continuing to raise the amount as the tank grows actually decreases stability due to the difference in day/night usage.   

 

So to review,

 

My current measurements with only Kalk, no doser, are:

 

9.3 at 4pm
8.8 at 6:30pm
8.6 at 8:30pm
8.5 at 6AM
8.1 at 4PM 

7.9 at 6:30 PM

 

Still have an 8:30pm measurement to make.  Note that I only lost .1KH overnight.  To really do this test correctly I should remove all Kalk from my times topoff, but I'm not so there is some background dosing still going on 24/7 (every 15 minutes).  I estimate the Kalk provides a daily dose of + 0.6 Alk if I use .8 gallons daily, which is about right.   So if I drop 1 KH daily I am really using 1.6 KH of Alk daily.  

 

If I stop dosing 2 part at night (but continue Kalk)  then my overnight Alk swing should only be +0.3 KH.  

 

 

 

 

In theory, this is the beauty of Apex-controlled dosing. I can adjust the dosing amount so that I dose more during low alk periods and less during high alk periods. But in practice I just dose the same amount every time. But I only dose for twelve out of every twenty four hours (at night, in other words). In theory that helps smooth out the daily swing, since I'm not dosing while alkalinity is rising during the day.

 

Does anyone know if alkalinity in the shallow coral reef areas of the ocean swings at all between day and night? I would guess not, but I just realized I don't actually know one way or the other 

[markalot]

8:30PM 7.7 KH

[Asureef]

13 minutes ago, teenyreef said:

In theory, this is the beauty of Apex-controlled dosing. I can adjust the dosing amount so that I dose more during low alk periods and less during high alk periods. But in practice I just dose the same amount every time. But I only dose for twelve out of every twenty four hours (at night, in other words). In theory that helps smooth out the daily swing, since I'm not dosing while alkalinity is rising during the day.

 

Does anyone know if alkalinity in the shallow coral reef areas of the ocean swings at all between day and night? I would guess not, but I just realized I don't actually know one way or the other 

 

I think Mark is trying to find a way to convince himself on buying a Alk. monitoring system....

 

 

[markalot]

27 minutes ago, Asureef said:

 

I see, but going by your theory shouldn’t alk be at its lowest when demand Should be higher during lighting hrs?   

 

 

 

Yep, which is why it's at the lowest level right at lights out.  That's my theory anyway, I can't test it yet because the dose is still off until I reach 7 KH.

[markalot]

17 minutes ago, teenyreef said:

In theory, this is the beauty of Apex-controlled dosing. I can adjust the dosing amount so that I dose more during low alk periods and less during high alk periods. But in practice I just dose the same amount every time. But I only dose for twelve out of every twenty four hours (at night, in other words). In theory that helps smooth out the daily swing, since I'm not dosing while alkalinity is rising during the day.

 

Does anyone know if alkalinity in the shallow coral reef areas of the ocean swings at all between day and night? I would guess not, but I just realized I don't actually know one way or the other 

 

But Alk drops during the day when the lights are on, so in theory you are swinging more than you should.  Corals grow while the lights are on and rest during lights out.  Right?

[markalot]

4 minutes ago, Asureef said:

 

I think Mark is trying to find a way to convince himself on buying a Alk. monitoring system....

 

 

 

Ha ah, nope.  I mean I can afford one, I choose not to have that much information.  I have had great luck running Alk too low, which makes perfect sense if my theory is correct.  It's only too low when I test, generally right at lights out.  In the morning it's at a good level, then drops again the next day.   I know 2 long time SPS reefers (remember I'm still a noob) who run Alk horribly low, usually by accident, without any major issues.  It's the spikes above 8 or 9 that kill, which is why I'm so worried atm.