Pinched Mantle disease

[Parker0824]

Awesome thread I always forget bout PMD

[ZephNYC]

THank you. I am planning an update soon. I believe my have completely irradicated PM from my system and have some new ideas I would like to talk about. Here are some Clowns playing inside my Gigas.

 

[OrionN]

Congrad on irradication of the PMD from your system. I love to hear how you did it.

 

It is likely that we are talking about several different disease now when clam keepers talk about PMD. PMD as I described it back in the mid 2000s does not kill quickly but rather it irretated the clam and kill it due to it is not extending the mantel. My large Gigas lasted for several years before I was able to cure it with FWD. A typical previously healthy 3 inches Crocea last for at least 6 months.

 

FWD works for PMD. In order for it to work, the causative agent must be a surface infection only. It cannot work for inter cellular infection or infection in the tissue of the clam. Because Perkinsus sp are intracellular parasites, I have my doubt that this is the causative agent for PMD

 

Minh Nguyen

I used to use my full name on RC but changed to OrionN. I still use my full name on Reefs.org

[ZephyrNYC]

Hello Orion,

Sorry for the delayed response. My lack of anger management skills, and p*ssing off the wrong person, caused me to be banned from NR.

 

Here is a quote from NR Member Wombat, who works side by side with well known guru Charles Delbeek .

"We have documented Perkinsus in other tissue of clams, including the mantle. I've seen them myself under the scope, from T. gigas, T. squamosa, T. derasa, and T. maxima. It causes pinched mantle symptoms and these are relieved (not cured) by freshwater dips. This is not to say that all pinched mantle is caused by Perkinsus or that it is the only protozoan involved "

 

I agree that PM is caused by Perkinsus Olensi, as well as other contributing pathogens. I conclude this because it does indeed respond tothe species specific protocol of iron deprivation. The most important aspect of this pathogen is that it is a faculative organism. It is capable of adapting to aerobic as well as anaerobic environments and worst of all, it actually does not require a host to survive. Dont drill me on this because I dont claim to fully understand it, but this is what greater brains than mine have concluded. This is why systems have remained clamless for months and even YEARS, only to still be a death sentance for any clam eventually introduced. We have cleaned many systems through iron deprivation, including my own 500G+ clam sanctuary,

 

During my hiatus from NR we have been having lots of fun on Reef Central curing sick clams. Here is a pic of a recent gold Crocea that is looking far better.

 

Before treatment

 

 

After treatment

 

 

Here is a TRUE black and gold Crocea clam, under my care 4 months now....no problemo =)

 

 

 

Aquacultured venuatu Black maxima

[ZephyrNYC]

Congrad on irradication of the PMD from your system. I love to hear how you did it.

 

It is likely that we are talking about several different disease now when clam keepers talk about PMD. PMD as I described it back in the mid 2000s does not kill quickly but rather it irretated the clam and kill it due to it is not extending the mantel. My large Gigas lasted for several years before I was able to cure it with FWD. A typical previously healthy 3 inches Crocea last for at least 6 months.

 

FWD works for PMD. In order for it to work, the causative agent must be a surface infection only. It cannot work for inter cellular infection or infection in the tissue of the clam. Because Perkinsus sp are intracellular parasites, I have my doubt that this is the causative agent for PMD

 

Minh Nguyen

I used to use my full name on RC but changed to OrionN. I still use my full name on Reefs.org

 

Do I know you ? I think you visited my fish room once...in fact did I sell you a 3 foot Arowana ?

[Lalani]

Zeph, are you unable to log in under ZephNYC? You were only given a 2 day timeout, so you should have been able to post since then..

[OrionN]

From my experience with this disease and form my struggle with it, I know that using only FWD I cure my tank of this disease. FWD cannot possibly treat intracellular infection. I conclude that the causative agent of the PMD that infected my tank, as I described back in the mid 2000 and named PMD, can only be external parasites.

 

Anything that irritated the clam can and will cause mantel to retracted. It is likely that internal infection can and will cause retraction of the mantel. I know that the agent that cause PMD as I described was not cause by and intracellular organism,

 

On disease cannot because by multiple agents. One symptom can cause by many things. IMO, the person that observed Perkinsus sp in the clam tissue did not look at a clam that got PMD as I described it but from some other disease that cause the mantel to retracted.

Do I know you ? I think you visited my fish room once...in fact did I sell you a 3 foot Arowana ?

There are a lot of people with my name, more common than John Smith, or Maria Gonzales. I never had a Arowana. I did breed Beta and Oscars in the past but did not keep Arowana.

[ZephNYC]

Zeph, are you unable to log in under ZephNYC? You were only given a 2 day timeout, so you should have been able to post since then..

 

Now I can, but I couldnt for the longest. Actually I was stuck logged in under my girlfriends account, but every time i tried to log out or do anything else it said I dont have permission.

[Andrew402]

Thank you for this, it is very helpful. It has led me to believe that my 5" crocea has PMD. Ive only had it for about three weeks now. I noticed something was wrong when it wasnt responding to me blocking the light yesterday. I stayed up until 2 am last night reading this entire thread.

 

Here is a picture from last week. Would you agree that this is pmd?

 

 

If so i plan on doing a FWD tonight.

Thanks again.

 

Andrew

[ZephNYC]

Thank you for this, it is very helpful. It has led me to believe that my 5" crocea has PMD. Ive only had it for about three weeks now. I noticed something was wrong when it wasnt responding to me blocking the light yesterday. I stayed up until 2 am last night reading this entire thread.

 

Here is a picture from last week. Would you agree that this is pmd?

 

 

If so i plan on doing a FWD tonight.

Thanks again.

 

Andrew

Hi!!! Actually I would not commit to an FWD just yet. Do this for me. Watch the clam at the precise time your lights shut off and tell me if it looks the same or much much worse in the first few minutes of darkness.

Not all clams have perfectly smooth mantles, or it could be something else is bothering it.

[Andrew402]

It seems as if now the issue is at the top end of the clam, the mantle on the very edge of the right side looks pinched.

 

 

 

Tonight when the lights went off it shut most of the way pretty quickly, then opened back up a bit. Extending the mantle just barely over edge of shell. It doesnt look much worse it just doesnt have the mantle extended much. The spot at the edge where its pinched right now was more apparent with it closed up some though. I think it has attached itself, i was basting my rocks and i basted the rock the clams on and it barely budged

[ZephNYC]

It seems as if now the issue is at the top end of the clam, the mantle on the very edge of the right side looks pinched.

 

 

 

Tonight when the lights went off it shut most of the way pretty quickly, then opened back up a bit. Extending the mantle just barely over edge of shell. It doesnt look much worse it just doesnt have the mantle extended much. The spot at the edge where its pinched right now was more apparent with it closed up some though. I think it has attached itself, i was basting my rocks and i basted the rock the clams on and it barely budged

I just am not convinced it has PM. If it indeed does it will get worse so I would just wait and see. Keep checking it at night. If it has PM it will look much worse at night, like the example we showed in the last case with the gold crocea.

[Andrew402]

Thanks for the reply, i will keep a close eye on it. Its normal at night for it retract most of the mantle, correct? so how would i know if its looking worse at night?

 

And do you think its a problem that the corner of the Mantle is pinched like that?

 

Thanks again for your help. i really dont want to lose her. =)

[ZephNYC]

Thanks for the reply, i will keep a close eye on it. Its normal at night for it retract most of the mantle, correct? so how would i know if its looking worse at night?

 

And do you think its a problem that the corner of the Mantle is pinched like that?

 

Thanks again for your help. i really dont want to lose her. =)

If it has PM it will look much worse in the first few minutes of darkness. It will literally fold up, instead of retracting in and look something like this.

 

If you could get a night time picture that would be great. I still do not think your clam has PM. I just think its a ruffled mantle. THey are not all perfect.

[MeepNand]

I don't think my crocea has PM, but I'm not allowed to have a QT tank yet (that will change). Can anybody tell me? I'm not very good at interpreting pictures.

[ZephNYC]

I don't think my crocea has PM, but I'm not allowed to have a QT tank yet (that will change). Can anybody tell me? I'm not very good at interpreting pictures.

Hey buddy, good to see you! Your clam looks sweet. I dont see any need to worry. Watch it at night, that is how you catch the very first syptom after the lights go out.

[Andrew402]

Ok thanks. so will a clam with pm close normal after the first few minutes of darkness? Or does it stay folded up like that? I will take a picture tonight but i know that my clam closes up almost all they way, with the mantle barely over the edge until i turn the lights on.

[MeepNand]

Oh, Zeph, could you write what we are looking for in a PM clam? It does not list in the first post what exactly PM clams look like.

[ZephNYC]

Oh, Zeph, could you write what we are looking for in a PM clam? It does not list in the first post what exactly PM clams look like.

 

HEre is a clam suffering from Pm. Funny thing is the clam looked pretty good during the day light. The owner was slightly suspicious because it would pinch from time to time, but straighten out nice too. After telling him to do a night time inspection this is what he saw!!

The trick is you have to be watching the precise moment the lights go off. If your lights dim out slowly I dont know if it will work, and it might not stay pinched up for long so you can indeed miss it. Instead of pulling in its mantle evenly in all locations, it will literally fold into nasty oragami like this. It could straighten back out, but if it does this I have 3 words for you.

 

dip that biatch.

[ZephNYC]

Ok thanks. so will a clam with pm close normal after the first few minutes of darkness? Or does it stay folded up like that? I will take a picture tonight but i know that my clam closes up almost all they way, with the mantle barely over the edge until i turn the lights on.

No....A clam with PM will fold in a response to darkness. Dont think so much of opening and closing, but literally folding as if you were making a paper airplane out of its mantle. How open or closed is stays has nothing to do with it. When the lights go out a healthy clam might only pull its mantle in a slight bit, but it will do so in all sections simultaneously and evenly. A sick clam will fold and it will be obvious. It sounds like your clam is fine..

[MeepNand]

So that's what PM is; a contorted clam mess. Thank you Zeph!

[ZephNYC]

So that's what PM is; a contorted clam mess. Thank you Zeph!

Exactly!!!

[Andrew402]

No....A clam with PM will fold in a response to darkness. Dont think so much of opening and closing, but literally folding as if you were making a paper airplane out of its mantle. How open or closed is stays has nothing to do with it. When the lights go out a healthy clam might only pull its mantle in a slight bit, but it will do so in all sections simultaneously and evenly. A sick clam will fold and it will be obvious. It sounds like your clam is fine..

Ok, i see what you are saying now. Im pretty sure its just a ruffled mantle as you suggested. Thanks for your help. I run halide pendants and they turn off one at a time, so tonight i will turn off both at the same time and see if she folds up.

[Andrew402]

Ok so last night i had my girlfriend unplug my ballasts for me so i could watch the clam, it withdrew its mantle evenly on all sides, and then extended it back out into what i couldnt tell if it was folding, or getting blown with strong flow in the tank. This is the best picture i got

 

 

Maybe im just worrying myself now, but does this seem like a problem?

[ZephNYC]

No. Not at all. Your clam is fine. Also know that most clams die of eventual starvation in aquariums, even with plenty of light. Reasons for this are absolute zero nitrates, and over use of carbon or ozone. My clams are doing so much better since i stopped running any carbon at all. A little doc in the water is what they need most. If they get to a near starvation point PM disease can pop out of nowhere. Kind of like a healthy fish can carry ich around all its life, but if it gets weak, the ich becomes a problem. Some speculate that all clams carry the PM pathogen, it just stays dormant.